nwhoopfan
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Plum played about 5 minutes that game so let's leave her out of this.
She isn't the one that got torched by Ionescu in the 2nd half of that game.
Is Sabrina the G.O.A.T?
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Plum played about 5 minutes that game so let's leave her out of this.
She isn't the one that got torched by Ionescu in the 2nd half of that game.
diggerfoot
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First, I appreciate you acknowledging the misrepresentation of an earlier post; that's a rare quality. However, I do not believe you fully understand what you are advocating or, at the least, you should be hoping you are wrong. For if Ionescu is really in the GOAT discussion, yet the best she can do while playing with other All-Americans on her team in a P5 conference is perhaps two Final Fours and a Championship, still to be determined, that does not bode well for the future of Oregon. By definition there is only one true GOAT; they are not going to flow through your program like water. If you will only manage one championship at best with the GOAT you will not be winning many of them in the future.
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I have an idea. Since Sabrina hasn’t even finished her college career maybe the joshing and ludicrous “Goat” title should be limited to college careers only. No WNBA or national team heroics. Under those limitations can Sabrina at least be in the discussion since she just did what NO other player, man or woman, has EVER done in D1 history. Ever. 2K-1K-1K and 26 triple doubles. Is she the greatest scorer in history? No. Rebounder? Most career assists? No and no.
But playing in a very competitive conference (and not a Little Sisters of the Poor conference) she has managed with grit, determination, and talent to do these the two remarkable things.
How about a little more recognition for a truly remarkable all around player and a little less nit picking? Goat this and goat that. Nobody takes it seriously. When Kobe, and Curry and LeBron and the like tweet goat emojis to her, it’s in a joshing manner. We should all take it that way. She does.
But playing in a very competitive conference (and not a Little Sisters of the Poor conference) she has managed with grit, determination, and talent to do these the two remarkable things.
How about a little more recognition for a truly remarkable all around player and a little less nit picking? Goat this and goat that. Nobody takes it seriously. When Kobe, and Curry and LeBron and the like tweet goat emojis to her, it’s in a joshing manner. We should all take it that way. She does.
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This is funny. Who knows what the future brings? I plan to enjoy the games whether my favored teams (multiple) finish high or low. It’s just sports not brain surgery as Al McGuire once told me in a bar near Marquette many decades ago.
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I would like to advance my choice for GOAT: Cheryl Miller. In high school, she averaged 33 points per game and once scored 105 points in one game. At USC, she led her team to two national championships. I watched the 1983 NCAA championship game a few days ago and saw FRESHMAN, Cheryl Miller, lead her USC team with 27 points. She single-handed kept them in the game in the first half and her teammates, Cynthia Cooper and Paula Mcgee, helped in the second half. Cheryl Miller was everywhere on offense and defense. They were facing a Louisiana Tech team, coached by Leon Barmore, that had won 99 of their last 101 games.
I have not seen any other player with her all around skills. When I began watching the game, I thought that I would be disappointed in the skill level in this game of 37 years ago, but I came away thinking that either the LSU or the USC team would have been competitive with any NCAA champion team of recent years.
With a few seconds left in the game, the La. Tech point guard, Kim Mulkey, yes that Kim Mulkey, drove to the basket and Cheryl Miller got in the way, Charge called. USC wins by 2.
I have not seen any other player with her all around skills. When I began watching the game, I thought that I would be disappointed in the skill level in this game of 37 years ago, but I came away thinking that either the LSU or the USC team would have been competitive with any NCAA champion team of recent years.
With a few seconds left in the game, the La. Tech point guard, Kim Mulkey, yes that Kim Mulkey, drove to the basket and Cheryl Miller got in the way, Charge called. USC wins by 2.
Blue Huskie
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The one that really separates it for me is the year DT won with a cast of role players. Maya and Stewie and all the other players mentioned including Sabrina have full solid teams taking the ride with them. Taurasi not only made all the role players better she made them National Champions. Not even close IMO.
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Sabrina is a wonderfully talented athlete. Clearly her individual statistics sparkle. In team sports there is one goal - winning. Remember the discussion between Shaq and another outstanding player Charles Barkley and Shaq correctly asked who got the rings. A previous poster made this point.
In no way to denigrate Sabrina who has wonderful individual statistics and achievements. She plays on an elite team. As of yet she has led no team in college to a championship. Her professional career is ahead of her. Her Olympic career is ahead of her. She has a long long long road and a number of tremendous athletes to pass before she would even be considered as in discussions of the GOAT.
She as I previously said has not willed has not lead her team to the ultimate result. Again the reason to play a team sport to win and that is the ultimate measure in evaluation of teams and players.
Di has let her teams to championships at every level. College, pros, the Olympics. So she remains and in my view will always be the GOAT.
Players like Sue Bird, Cheryl Miller, Sheryl Swoopes, Cynthia Cooper, Breanna Stewart, Maya Moore clearly there's a long list of players who have tremendously developed athletic skills leadership abilities and championships.
It's possible that Sabrina one day will join this list. Certainly not based on her college ability to win championships but she has a long and fruitful career ahead of her in the WNBA and internationally. Also the Olympic team. So she may well in the future enter that list of elite athletes the revolve beneath the GOAT Diana Taurasi.
Definitely leave Kelsey Plum off this list. She's a wonderful player an outstanding college scorer and an average professional. Like Sabrina has yet to win a title.Plum played about 5 minutes that game so let's leave her out of this.
jonson
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I agree that Sabrina is not the GOAT of WBB. (DT would be my pick.) Given the media attention she has attracted--and not just from the usual suspects (eg. the current ESPN NCAAW home page), but from outlets like the Washington Post, as well as NBA superstars--a better case could be made for her perhaps unprecedented contribution to the visibility of college WBB in general. As I noted in the Oregon/Stanford thread, the number of TV viewers for last Monday's game dwarfed those for two games on NBA TV and a men's college game on ESPNU. I'd of course like to believe that an important game between two fine teams would draw a good audience in any case, but I think the numbers also testify to what might be called "the Sabrina effect." And, in that, I think she more than holds her own among the greats of the past.
donalddoowop
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If she does that then she is the GOAT, without question.
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Okay I just went through the NCAA WBB career records list and I am genuinely puzzled by what in Diana Taurasi's (college only) career deserves such unreserved praise besides being a member of two NC teams.
After going through literally hundreds of the Individual Career Scoring names, I finally found her near the bottom at a relatively modest 2156 . Other categories (rebounding, assists, 3 point, anything.)... nope.
Yet multiple posters declare unequivocally that DT is clearly the goat. It can't be just UConn bias because other UConn players dot the record books....some in multiple categories.
UConn players like Maya Moore (3036 career pts), Breanna Stewart (2676),
Tina Charles, Nykesha Sales, and Kerry Bascom were all better scorers.
Tamika Williams leads everyone who ever played in FG pct (70.3). Kaleen Mosqueda-Lewis is at the very top in total 3 pt goals. Sue Bird and Wendy Davis have high 3 pt goal percentages. Nykesha Sales also in the Steals list and Breanna Stewart and Kara Walters in total career blocked shots.
So I must be missing something. I mean I am a DT fan as well. She was a terrific WBB ambassador and motivational speaker on the USA team visit to Eugene. But I don't quite see her college (only) career as clearly superior to any one else who has ever played the game. Career records like Maya Moore's scoring, KML 3 pt record, and the incredible FG% of Tamika Williams must count for something. Right?
After going through literally hundreds of the Individual Career Scoring names, I finally found her near the bottom at a relatively modest 2156 . Other categories (rebounding, assists, 3 point, anything.)... nope.
Yet multiple posters declare unequivocally that DT is clearly the goat. It can't be just UConn bias because other UConn players dot the record books....some in multiple categories.
UConn players like Maya Moore (3036 career pts), Breanna Stewart (2676),
Tina Charles, Nykesha Sales, and Kerry Bascom were all better scorers.
Tamika Williams leads everyone who ever played in FG pct (70.3). Kaleen Mosqueda-Lewis is at the very top in total 3 pt goals. Sue Bird and Wendy Davis have high 3 pt goal percentages. Nykesha Sales also in the Steals list and Breanna Stewart and Kara Walters in total career blocked shots.
So I must be missing something. I mean I am a DT fan as well. She was a terrific WBB ambassador and motivational speaker on the USA team visit to Eugene. But I don't quite see her college (only) career as clearly superior to any one else who has ever played the game. Career records like Maya Moore's scoring, KML 3 pt record, and the incredible FG% of Tamika Williams must count for something. Right?
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The poll question and original comment asked if Sabrina was the GOAT This has been an interesting and thoughtful discussion which I think clearly has established she is not.
While many of us are convinced that Di is the GOAT whether you restrict the analysis to one element of basketball college or the entire body of work - you propose a number of other superlative athletes who might wear the mantle.
Those athletes you mention clearly had a more successful college career as measured not by individual statistics by team result than Sabrina.
Let me repeat this is not to diminish Sabrina's amazing accomplishments. To this point in her career they are amazing individual accomplishments that may never be repeated. But this is important - she's never won a title.
Perhaps one could make an argument that the GOAT need not carry their team to championships, that they just need to accumulate a tremendous level of statistics. I'm thinking now of Karl Malone and John Stockton who both had long careers and never won. Also one of my favorite athletes Charles Barkley. I think it would be difficult if not impossible to try to make the cases with these athletes or any other they are entitled to be considered the GOAT without a title. Just my view.
So I do think that you join the consensus that Sabrina is not the GOAT. The question is who is the GOAT.
Individual statistics are only part although an important part of the analysis. Winning the team title or titles is also important. Also the degree of leadership and bringing the team to the ultimate championship needs to be considered. Not all of this can be reduced to statistics.
Outstanding analysis. Given the current state of women's basketball Sabrina came along at a time with individual performance and accomplishments that might make her one of the most impactful players in women's basketball.
Time is all to paraphrase The Bard. Sabrina came along at a juncture in women's basketball and at a time of events that were ripe for a charismatic superstar to reflect the expansion of the game. Sabrina may very well have the mantle of the most impactful player.
So her impact extends beyond the court in an interesting way her failure to win a title may actually contribute to her impact.
There's something universal about the narrative of a tremendous athlete who is admittedly very well connected to other celebrities in the sport who makes Herculean individual efforts but fails to achieve ultimate success.
That is a story that might perhaps be more impactful the story of the GOAT -Diana Taurasi.
I'm thinking now the discussion in football over the GOAT. There is an amazing narrative around Dan Marino as perhaps a candidates that honor. Tom Terrific the holder of the record that will never be approached for titles seems to have majority support.
The narrative of those other tremendously gifted athletes who fall short captures the imagination.
Appreciate this dimension of the discussion.
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3 national championships 2 of them in her back other stats don’t tell her whole story
diggerfoot
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OK, I see the disconnect here. We both agree that context matters in terms of championships won, ie, you cannot hold the lack of a championship against players like Larry Bird or EDD because of the context. No way Indiana State even gets near the Final Four without a player who would be in the conversation for being the greatest.
What you seem to be missing is that context matters for statistics even more. Had Ionescu played for UConn her stats would be less impressive for two reasons. At least during the "glory years" as you cite she would have received less playing time, plus she would be in a read and react system with many versatile players. Or, to put it another way, if Stewart, Moore or Taurasi played for Graves in his first years at Oregon their statistics would look more impressive than they were for UConn.
How much so? Who knows for sure? Different coaches use different means to an end; comparing players across different means is more problematic than comparing across similar ends. For top tier programs with multiple All-Americans the desired end should be a common one, championships. I get why you do not want to dwell on championships because of the contextual ends, but comparing across the contextual means of how to achieve those ends is MORE problematic, not less.
Championships require more than objective, measurable talent. If that were not the case bookies would be out of business. In Taurasi's case she brought a class with no seniors to a championship because of her intangible ability to make even inexperienced teammates feel invincible in their own right while also feeling she will always come through in the clutch when needed. I personally feel that how you enhance the performance of your teammates is the single most important criteria for any player, but you typically do not find a measure of that in the stats.
Ionescu may have that quality. Her teammates were not #1 ranked recruits, yet some are All-American now. That's why I suggest you need more information from the future. If her teammates tank once they no longer are playing with Ionescu that is a significant argument in her favor. The stats alone, however, are not. What the stats tell you is Oregon has one of the most talented, versatile players of all time and should be celebrated as such, but nothing more or less for now.
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This has been an interesting discussion and I much appreciate this forum for the opportunity to read such wide and varied analysis. Please do not misunderstand that my subtext is an argument that Sabrina is the Goat. Far from it. I consider this term a joking, in group type of designation when people are having fun with one another... it is not a real thing. That discussion and Sabrina have been left far behind.
That being said, I genuinely still don't see why so many have a need to declare DT the Goat so unequivocally. She was a member of two NC teams seems to be the crux of it. Ok. Literally hundreds of WBB players have been on NC teams. Many fewer have been on two or more but still a high number.
So what is the other thing that elevates DT above all the other great college WBB players in history in the opinion of some here? This is a genuine question. Enlighten me.
That being said, I genuinely still don't see why so many have a need to declare DT the Goat so unequivocally. She was a member of two NC teams seems to be the crux of it. Ok. Literally hundreds of WBB players have been on NC teams. Many fewer have been on two or more but still a high number.
So what is the other thing that elevates DT above all the other great college WBB players in history in the opinion of some here? This is a genuine question. Enlighten me.
diggerfoot
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??? Did you not read my response to you, post #76, before your post #77?
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There is one stat that reflects this to a significant degree: assists
So the answer is: championships. But the history of all BB including WBB is filled with teams with leaders whose intangibles helped drive their team to a championship.
So the answer is: intangibles. An unknown by very definition
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Ha ha...sorry. No I did not because I wrote #77 before lunch (two hours ago) and thought I had posted it. But I had not. I finally clicked "post" kind of right after I read yours so my thing looks really stupid not in chronological order. I am an idiot.
diggerfoot
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I appreciate the way you have handled this discussion. There is actually a better stat than assists that can indicate value to your teammates: +/- . That stat has limited application. It's meaningless to compare players between teams, or even players on the same team if there are few games, but it is meaningful to compare players on the same team with a large number of games.
Assists is problematic for the very reason I already stated: context matters. We all know Taurasi can score, she proved that in the WNBA, yet her pride and joy were assists and she was the record holder up until recently. Her assists do not match Ionescu's for three reasons. 1. In Taurasi's era the UConn offense was more post oriented. In fact, in the 2002 championship game we went 0-9 from three. It's a helluva lot easier to rack up assists if you can feed the perimeter at least as much as the post. 2. UConn's offense is built on versatile players reading and reacting, that is going to spread any statistic around, the previous point I was making. 3. Despite this versatility, for two years Taurasi's backcourt mate was Sue Bird, who went on to become the WNBA assist leader. Indeed, if Bird had not just played 8 games her freshman year she probably would still be UConn's assist leader.
In lieu of assists or a +/- for comparison I offer you one final anecdote to provide clarity for what you seem puzzled about. In Taurasi's junior year she was the only returning starter. Two starters had seen limited action their first two years while the other two were freshman. They only lost one game and won the championship despite that handicap, but it's what happened in one particular game that proves Taurasi's worth. We were down to Tennessee late in the game, I believe by 6 points. As Auriemma tells it he was prepared to now consider the game a learning experience for his young, inexperienced squad. When he started to convey this sentiment during a timeout Taurasi looked at him like he had two heads and huddled up her teammates without him, rallying and convincing them they were going to win the game. She then proceeded to make a three from about 30 feet, along with some other heroics, and UConn won the game.
The past three semifinals were close ones, two lost in the final seconds. You will not find a single UConn fan that thinks we still lose those games if Taurasi was one of the five playing at the end, no matter who you subbed her for, Collier, Samuelson, whomever. More important, there is not a single teammate of Taurasi's through her college and pro career who would doubt her ability to win a game at the end. That is the basis for Taurasi's support.
For the record I think there are too many variables. I think a good argument could be made for Stewart as well as Taurasi, plus I am in no position to compare to someone like Miller from an earlier era.
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Then you didn’t watch her play in college
Taurasi averaged 15/4/4 for her college career, strong numbers for a 6'0" guard but hardly spectacular ones. The national titles that she helped bring home are what has made her legacy so memorable. Based upon statistical production and national titles in college only, my pick for GOAT would be Stewart. For one's entire basketball career including college, pro, and national team participation, the GOAT would have to be Taurasi.
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Sabrina is Oregon's G.O.A.T. She and Oregon fans should be proud of that.
But is she the greatest of all time? Like ever? Of any and all women's player that's ever lived and played? No, not in my opinion. She's not in that pantheon, not yet
But is she the greatest of all time? Like ever? Of any and all women's player that's ever lived and played? No, not in my opinion. She's not in that pantheon, not yet
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npignatjr
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3 Championship teams, 2 of which she was the only AA. So is Sabrina winning this year's without the other 2 A As on the team?
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Where Oregon's Sabrina Ionescu ranks among all-time greats, across eras
Oregon's Sabrina Ionescu is the first player in NCAA history to reach 2,000 points, 1,000 rebounds and 1,000 assists.
www.ncaa.com
Great analysis! Not only because I agree with you completely but you describe with exquisite care and example what happens when a GOAT takes charge and leads by example and by modeling.
The bigger the moment the more D stepped up. Not only did she have an indomitable will but as you pointed out she willed her teammates to victory.
I love the story about her looking at Geno in the huddle like he was insane. D shared with other GOATs in other arenas an absolute, utter conviction that she would lead the team to victory. And she carried that conviction to completion.
formerlurker
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