Is Sabrina the G.O.A.T?

[bballnut90]

Sorry. Don't like internet arguments and hope everybody is okay. As I said GOAT is a silly and subjective term. Who is the Men's Goat? Michael Jordan? Kobe Bryant? LeBron James? None of them had the above criteria of "2 or more" NC's. so...silly criteria.

My own WBB Top Player list allowing for different eras: Nancy Lieberman, Cheryl Miller, Bev Smith, Sue Bird, Diana Taurasi, Griner, Catchings...so many others. Nice to see Sabrina even in the discussion with these greats but THERE IS NO ACTUAL GOAT. Come on...

Let's just enjoy the game and the talent displayed.

That's all the fun though. Most of us love trying to come up with lists/rankings/etc. Greatest of All Time is usually synonymous with championships. Obviously basketball is a team sport and it's not up to 1 person to win titles, but if you're looking solely at collegiate careers, how well you play when everything is on the line counts. A lot. Jordan won 6 titles, Kobe 5, Lebron 3 but made 9 straight Finals with some very weak teammates. At the end of the day, all of them have won (multiple times) and shined bright on the biggest stage.

If you look at the 5 UCONN/Tennessee players who I think are universally considered 5 of the best collegiate players ever, all won 2-4 titles, were NPOY in 2 seasons and had big showings in crucial NCAA tournament games. All of them won 2 or more Final Four MOP awards except for Maya who won 1, and Maya was a stud at all 4 Final Fours. I don't think there's preset criteria for being the GOAT but the ones who are in commonly considered all have similar resumes.

I think being able to find a way to win against the best, showing up when it matters most, and having skills far greater than your peers gives someone a claim to be in the discussion. Sabrina struggled big time in her 1 Final Four showing last season. If she wins a title while playing well this year, then she does deserve to be in the discussion. The flip side is that posters like myself will point out that other players have been able to shine on the biggest stage in multiple seasons where Sabrina only did 1 year. If she falters or has another poor showing at Tampa, I don't think she can be considered among the best of all time without a title. Most skilled or most talented, yes. But the title of greatest of all time or best collegiate player ever? She needs a title.

 

[bballnut90]

Three straight Pac-12 Championships is hardly a "shortage". Just no NC along with the vast majority of teams and players that play the game. Larry Bird and Bill Bradley are excellent examples on the men's side of great players who could carry their teams but only so far in the end.

She has much better teammates than Bird/Bradley did though. She's played 4 years with Ruthy Hebard who is going to be a top 5 pick in the upcoming draft and 3 years with Sabally who may go #2 behind her. She's had an incredibly good supporting cast. Beyond those 2, Cazorla was another 3 year teammate who played in the WNBA, Boley was a former top 5 recruit who she's played 2 years with, etc. This ain't a Jackie Stile situation where she's just throwing her team on her back and single handily winnings games. She has really really good teammates.

 

[meyers7]

Sorry. Don't like internet arguments and hope everybody is okay. As I said GOAT is a silly and subjective term. Who is the Men's Goat? Michael Jordan? Kobe Bryant? LeBron James? None of them had the above criteria of "2 or more" NC's. so...silly criteria.

Talk about silly. We're talking about female College GOATs. You're bringing in 2 male players that never went to college and one that left after Jr year. ????

I can understand why you don't like internet arguments.

 

[nwhoopfan]

She has much better teammates than Bird/Bradley did though. She's played 4 years with Ruthy Hebard who is going to be a top 5 pick in the upcoming draft and 3 years with Sabally who may go #2 behind her. She's had an incredibly good supporting cast. Beyond those 2, Cazorla was another 3 year teammate who played in the WNBA, Boley was a former top 5 recruit who she's played 2 years with, etc. This ain't a Jackie Stile situation where she's just throwing her team on her back and single handily winnings games. She has really really good teammates.

I wasn't really thinking of that in terms of how Ionescu and Plum compare to each other. Sabrina certainly had much more talent around her than Kelsey did. As far as I know Osahor and Walton were the only other Huskies drafted and I'm pretty sure neither ever made a roster.

 

[WestCoast]

GOAT = DT

Could AZFan be pandering to the audience?

I am hesitant to anoint Ionescu with that moniker. She may lead her team to two Final Fours and one national title. Or, one Final Four.

If Taurasi had played for Graves in the Oregon system and with Ionescu's teammates, would she have had the internal drive to compile similar stats and take her team even further than Ionescu has?

 

[meyers7]

Today is a more competitive environment than the UConn glory years. More parity and greater spread nationally in talent. NC’s are a measure of team wide talent and level of competition. But whatever...
A better reply to this question might be “No (this person) was because she (did this)”. But it’s okay fandom is about opinion and loyalty. All I know is NO D-1 player has ever done what she has done. So there’s that....

The glory years were like 4 years ago. And really they've still made the FF the last 3. Not sure UCONN isn't still in their glory years.

 

[bballnut90]

Is she better than Kelsey Plum?

Far far better than Plum IMO. Plum was an inefficient volume shooter until her senior year when she had a truly ridiculous season averaging nearly 32ppg while playing quite efficiently. Through her junior year Plum though had about a 1:1 A/TO ratio, and a career shooting percentage of 40.9%. You could argue Plum's best season is as good or even better than Sabrina's best season, but the other 3 handily go in favor of Sabrina.

 

[Zanzman]

Sorry. Don't like internet arguments and hope everybody is okay. As I said GOAT is a silly and subjective term. Who is the Men's Goat? Michael Jordan? Kobe Bryant? LeBron James? None of them had the above criteria of "2 or more" NC's. so...silly criteria.

My own WBB Top Player list allowing for different eras: Nancy Lieberman, Cheryl Miller, Bev Smith, Sue Bird, Diana Taurasi, Griner, Catchings...so many others. Nice to see Sabrina even in the discussion with these greats but THERE IS NO ACTUAL GOAT. Come on...

Let's just enjoy the game and the talent displayed.

My point is Diana carried UConn to championships her lady 2 years with a limited supporting cast

 

[bballnut90]

I wasn't really thinking of that in terms of how Ionescu and Plum compare to each other. Sabrina certainly had much more talent around her than Kelsey did. As far as I know Osahor and Walton were the only other Huskies drafted and I'm pretty sure neither ever made a roster.

I wasn't comparing her to Kelsey in that post, just referring to the Bradley/Bird comparison. But I agree, Sabrina has had much better teammates than Plum did. Although I did love me some Osahor, such a unique player and really fun to watch.

 

[Zanzman]

Could AZFan be pandering to the audience?

I am hesitant to anoint Ionescu with that moniker. She may lead her team to two Final Fours and one national title. Or, one Final Four.

If Taurasi had played for Graves in the Oregon system and with Ionescu's teammates, would she have had the internal drive to compile similar stats and take her team even further than Ionescu has?

Yes

 

[CL82]

She is winning 2+ NCs in one year?

I have to say I would count that in favor of her being the greatest of all time.

 

[triaddukefan]

Surely I can't be the only one who hates the word/phrase GOAT. Seems like the last few years...... its GOAT this.. or GOAT that.

That being said... #20 for Oregon is a fine player.

 

[diggerfoot]

Three straight Pac-12 Championships is hardly a "shortage". Just no NC along with the vast majority of teams and players that play the game. Larry Bird and Bill Bradley are excellent examples on the men's side of great players who could carry their teams but only so far in the end.

???? Well, that was strange. Did you even read the context in which I presented the sentence you quoted or did you conveniently ignored the rest because it does not fit well into your narrative. Quick summary of the more salient points. Graves performance at Gonzaga and Oregon reveals him to be a better coach than the ones for Bird and Bradley, thus a great player for Grave should take the team farther for him than Bird or Bradley did for their coaches, particularly if surrounded by a stronger supporting cast than Bird and Bradley, which also appears to be the case.

In its entirety, the snippet you quoted implies the complete opposite of what you made it into. Well done!

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

The glory years were like 4 years ago. And really they've still made the FF the last 3. Not sure UCONN isn't still in their glory years.

I don't know if these are per se UConn's Glory Years - but their years of being one of the top - and sometimes the top - program are far from over. I would bet money on UConn winning a National Championship - in fact, phrased "at least one and probably more" in the next 4 years. I would not bet on it this year, but don't consider it impossible.

Anyone who thinks UConn's days are past is really not thinking. Um, they lost 3 games this year, to the 3 top teams.

 

[Floridaduck]

In its entirety, the snippet you quoted implies the complete opposite of what you made it into. Well done!

My error. Sorry. Sometimes I’m on an iPad and it betrays me.

 

[Floridaduck]

Um, they lost 3 games this year, to the 3 top teams.

All power to Geno for scheduling such a strong ooc (including ND and Tenn although down this year). Also @Depaul.
Hopefully the Big East will finally provide more in-conference competition in the years ahead with more interesting games and challenges.

 

[Figurehead]

That's like saying is Summitt, Vandeever or Geno A. is the GOAT of all time coaches. Bet it would be evenly split depending on loyalties.

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

All power to Geno for scheduling such a strong ooc (including ND and Tenn although down this year).
Hopefully the Big East will finally provide more in-conference competition in the years ahead with more interesting games and challenges.

I don't expect so. As a Rutgers fan and long time conference mate of UConn, they were challenged some in the Big East and still won almost all regular season and tournament championships. They had to "work harder" I guess to do it, but do it they did. If no-one else remembers, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that, while Geno always scheduled a decent out of conference slate, it was no where near what it has been lately.

 

[bballnut90]

I don't know if these are per se UConn's Glory Years - but their years of being one of the top - and sometimes the top - program are far from over. I would bet money on UConn winning a National Championship - in fact, phrased "at least one and probably more" in the next 4 years. I would not bet on it this year, but don't consider it impossible.

Anyone who thinks UConn's days are past is really not thinking. Um, they lost 3 games this year, to the 3 top teams.

The recruiting has been on fire for UCONN despite a lot of concerned fans regarding lack of depth.

UCONN typically has at least 2 of the 4 #1 recruits playing college basketball and gets a top 5-10 recruit most years. They have an incoming transfer who was #2 overall in 2017, #1 in 2020 committed, #5 in 2021 and #3 in 2022. Embarrassment of riches has held strong since the mid 90s and they should stay in the title hunt for years to come.

 

[Mulder]

On a scale of 1-10, Maya Moore, Diana Taurasi, Sheryl Swoopes, and Kelsey Plum were 10s.

Sabrina Ionescu = 9.25.

 

[azfan]

Could AZFan be pandering to the audience?

I am hesitant to anoint Ionescu with that moniker. She may lead her team to two Final Fours and one national title. Or, one Final Four.

If Taurasi had played for Graves in the Oregon system and with Ionescu's teammates, would she have had the internal drive to compile similar stats and take her team even further than Ionescu has?

I've had the opportunity to enjoy Diana's body of work, first in college and now with the Mercury. To my eye, no one is close

In my mind along with Serena Williams she isone of the greatest athletes of all time and without peer in WBB.

Sabrina is a supremely talent....with unparalleled individual stats and a motor that rivals Kobe.

As Geno said, we have Di and they don't. And Sabrina, while elite, is no Di.

Even if Sabrina were to surpass the WNBA all time leader in scoring, win more than three WNBA titled, lead her college team to two NCs, win 4 Olympic gold medals....Di would still be the GOAT

 

[DefenseBB]

On a scale of 1-10, Maya Moore, Diana Taurasi, Sheryl Swoopes, and Kelsey Plum Breanna Stewart were 10s.

Sabrina Ionescu = 9.25.

you had me right up to Kelsey Plum...so I fixed it for you.

 

[Carnac]

That question is similar to a "chicken or egg" inquiry. There are way too many great women basketball players that came before her, some with a championship in their back pocket to suggest such heresy at this point in her career. We need to see her at the next level for an appreciable amount of time before we can honestly/seriously give her any consideration for GOAT.

For starters she has to get past Nancy Lieberman, Cheryl Miller, Bev Smith, Sue Bird, Brittney Griner, Sheryl Swoopes, Tina Thompson, Lisa Leslie, Breanna Stewart and Tamika Catchings (and a few others). Don't forget about Lynette Woodard. She scored 122 more career points (3649) at Kansas (1978-1981) than Kelsey Plum (3527). Her record(s) is not recognized by the NCAA because it was done BEFORE the NCAA was formed. Then she has to approach Maya and Diana.

 

[azfan]

Hope this helps...and doesn't violate fair use.



Sabrina and others can be great, there is only Diana at the top.

 

[azfan]

On a scale of 1-10, Maya Moore, Diana Taurasi, Sheryl Swoopes, and Kelsey Plum were 10s.

Sabrina Ionescu = 9.25.

Diana is 11.

Mayà, Sheryl and Stewie are 10s.

Kelsey who lite up the Sun Devils like a Roman Candle is a 9.