Is Sabrina the G.O.A.T?

[Bigboote]

I think FridaFriend got it right at 481. That is what Wikipedia has for Williams for assists. And you know about the accuracy for Wikipedia... What does the UConn WBB Media Guide have for the number of assists for Williams?

Gabby didn't have many assists her first two seasons at UConn.

Oops, my bad. The UConn website is missing a year -- I added the total for her senior year to the total below, but that's soph-sr rather than fr-jr.

 

[nwhoopfan]

It takes a diverse skill set and opportunity to reach those numbers. Pivec played point guard for one season and passes a lot in OSU's offense. Difficult to get the 1,000 boards if you play point guard most of the time. Pivec has played a wing and a small forward for much of her career. Ionescu plays point guard in the frontcourt on offense, but gathers her share of defensive rebounds by seeking the ball from her zone position on defense. Ionescu leads the PAC-12 in defensive rebounds, quite a feat noting that she is often positioned at the top of a 2-3 zone for Oregon.

I'm not sure exactly what point is being made? Pivec averaged more rebounds/game during Soph, Jr. and most of the way thru Sr. year than Ionescu. Career totals are really close. Both have done a ridiculous job of grabbing boards for sub 6 foot players.

 

[ReadR00ster]

Maya Moore was the best I have ever seen.

 

[Orangutan]

Far far better than Plum IMO. Plum was an inefficient volume shooter until her senior year when she had a truly ridiculous season averaging nearly 32ppg while playing quite efficiently. Through her junior year Plum though had about a 1:1 A/TO ratio, and a career shooting percentage of 40.9%. You could argue Plum's best season is as good or even better than Sabrina's best season, but the other 3 handily go in favor of Sabrina.

Plum getting Washington a final four is more impressive to me than anything Sabrina has yet done in college.

(your mileage may vary depending on how much you value triple-doubles).

 

[bballnut90]

Plum getting Washington a final four is more impressive to me than anything Sabrina has yet done in college.

(your mileage may vary depending on how much you value triple-doubles).

I disagree. Plum wasnt even regional MOP when Washington got to the Final Four, it was Osahor. And Walton poured in 30 in the Sweet 16. They also were fortunate that Stanford pulled off a super unexpected win against Notre Dame in the Sweet 16. She played well but had a ton of help, it wasnt a one woman wrecking crew like Jackie Stiles pouring in 41 and beating #1 seed Duke with Alana Beard.

Ionescu's performance against a very good Mississippi State team to get to the Final Four was more impressive to me. Game by game throughout her career I think she performs at a much higher level than Plum did prior to her senior year.

 

[nwhoopfan]

Hmm...Ionescu has always been a bit streaky. She has had PLENTY of poor shooting games throughout her career. Plum's Sr. year was absolutely unreal. That's gotta count for something. Never scored less than 22 in a game, shot less than 40% from the floor in only 3 games, and then it was no worse than mid 30s. She didn't have a truly bad game all season. Who else has ever done that?

 

[j66kicker]

Plum getting Washington a final four is more impressive to me than anything Sabrina has yet done in college.

(your mileage may vary depending on how much you value triple-doubles).

Sabrina is a truly amazing player, and a superior player to Plum, but what good are triple-doubles if they aren't the means to an end (national championship)? For now I'm a Sabrina believer, and I love that she came back for her senior year to take care of unfinished business. I don't think that business was just to rack up individual stats, but she needs to show me the money.

 

[nwhoopfan]

I disagree. Plum wasnt even regional MOP when Washington got to the Final Four, it was Osahor. And Walton poured in 30 in the Sweet 16. They also were fortunate that Stanford pulled off a super unexpected win against Notre Dame in the Sweet 16. She played well but had a ton of help, it wasnt a one woman wrecking crew like Jackie Stiles pouring in 41 and beating #1 seed Duke with Alana Beard.

Ionescu's performance against a very good Mississippi State team to get to the Final Four was more impressive to me. Game by game throughout her career I think she performs at a much higher level than Plum did prior to her senior year.

Come on, Plum had plenty of help but Ionescu didn't? That's rhetorical, of course Sabrina did. I looked at box scores, Plum scored 24, 32, 23 and 26 on the way to the Final 4. I think you are trying way too hard to make a point and ignoring facts.

 

[Orangutan]

Sabrina is a truly amazing player, and far superior to Plum, but what good are triple-doubles if they aren't the means to an end (national championship)? For now I'm a Sabrina believer, and I love that she came back for her senior year to take care of unfinished business. I don't think that business was just to rack up individual stats, but she needs to show me the money.

Yep, we are on the same page here.

You can say that Oregon lost to the eventual national champions her sophomore year. However, Oregon was the favorite in the game (or was picked by 538 and most pundits, anyway) and led at halftime.

Last year, she was 6-24 in the loss to Baylor. Now Baylor was a great team with outstanding perimeter defenders but...the best players find a way to overcome.

I'm not trying to turn this into a stupid "Sabrina isn't clutch" talking point but she's yet to really make it happen on the biggest stage with the chips down.

Great regular season player, really fun to watch, stat monster, yes. GOAT candidate? No.

 

[Orangutan]

I disagree. Plum wasnt even regional MOP when Washington got to the Final Four, it was Osahor. And Walton poured in 30 in the Sweet 16. They also were fortunate that Stanford pulled off a super unexpected win against Notre Dame in the Sweet 16. She played well but had a ton of help, it wasnt a one woman wrecking crew like Jackie Stiles pouring in 41 and beating #1 seed Duke with Alana Beard.

Ionescu's performance against a very good Mississippi State team to get to the Final Four was more impressive to me. Game by game throughout her career I think she performs at a much higher level than Plum did prior to her senior year.

Ionescu was awesome in that game. She was also playing in a virtual home game in Portland. 538's predictions gave Oregon a 51% chance of reaching the Final Four pre-tournament. Oregon was supposed to make the Final Four.

Washington was not supposed to make the Final Four. True, Osahor was amazing that year. But Plum was items A-C on every opponent's game plan and still managed to get hers and rack up assists, too.

Ionescu has been a better college player than Plum overall for sure.

But I will say that Ionescu vs. Plum in terms of college careers is a much closer debate than Ionescu vs. Stewart.

So speaking to the original topic of the thread, not only is Ionescu not the GOAT, she's not even a serious candidate.

 

[bballnut90]

Come on, Plum had plenty of help but Ionescu didn't? That's rhetorical, of course Sabrina did. I looked at box scores, Plum scored 24, 32, 23 and 26 on the way to the Final 4. I think you are trying way too hard to make a point and ignoring facts.

Want specific unbiased facts? Here we go:

Plum scored a lot of points in those games, 26.3 ppg over those 4, but was very inefficient. In those 4 games you mentioned, Plum shot 37.9% from the floor (33-87) and 26.7% from 3 (8/30). Each game she shot between 36-42%, so there wasn't one game dragging her down.

Add in the Final Four blowout loss to 4 seed Syracuse (where she scored 11 points on 5-18 FG, 1-6 from deep) and her NCAA numbers are 36.2% FG, and 25% from 3pt, while averaging 23.2 ppg, 6.4 assists and 4 turnovers a game.


Compare that to Sabrina who last tournament averaged 21.4 ppg, 9 assists, 6.6 rebounds, 2.6 turnovers and shot 46.5% from the floor (40/86) and 45.9% from deep (17/37) . Take out her bad Baylor game (the team that won the title going 37-1) and her percentages are 54.8% FG and 50% from 3.

If you read my post, it was specifically the Mississippi State game that I highlighted. Mississippi State was a #1 seed coming off back to back runner up seasons and Sabrina was the giant killer. She had 31 points, 8 assists, 7 rebounds, and 2 turnovers while shooting 12-20 from the floor and 5-8 from deep. That specific game along with her run to the final four was far more impressive than any of Plum's individual games or run to the Final Four.


And I never said Sabrina didn't have help. I just disagree with the notion that Plum carried her team to a Final Four. I highlighted a specific game (Elite 8 vs. Mississippi State) that I thought was more impressive than anything Plum did that tournament.

 

[bballnut90]

Hmm...Ionescu has always been a bit streaky. She has had PLENTY of poor shooting games throughout her career. Plum's Sr. year was absolutely unreal. That's gotta count for something. Never scored less than 22 in a game, shot less than 40% from the floor in only 3 games, and then it was no worse than mid 30s. She didn't have a truly bad game all season. Who else has ever done that?

Plum was ridiculous her senior year, but she was very streaky her first 3 years. If you're looking at best individual season, then sure, you have a good claim for Plum's 2017 being equal to or better than any individual season Sabrina has had. I wont argue that. But you can't "Sabrina is streaky" and completely overlook Plum's first 3 years IMO.

 

[Orangutan]

Mississippi State was a #1 seed coming off back to back runner up seasons and Sabrina was the giant killer.

Mississippi State was the #4 overall team playing a virtual road game against the #5 overall team. Not a "giant killer" scenario.

And it was hardly the same Mississippi State team that was the 2x runner-up after losing the Vivians/William/Schaefer/Johnson quartet.

 

[bballnut90]

Mississippi State was the #4 overall team playing a virtual road game against the #5 overall team. Not a "giant killer" scenario.

And it was hardly the same Mississippi State team that was the 2x runner-up after losing the Vivians/William/Schaefer/Johnson quartet.

Mississippi State was still very good last year and came in at 33-2. Much tougher opponent than 4 seed Stanford. And even so, it was a HUGE game with a Final Four trip on the line and Ionescu absolutely dominated.

And like I said, look at their comparative numbers. Plum's just don't even compare to Sabrina's.

 

[domerduck]

Yep, we are on the same page here.

You can say that Oregon lost to the eventual national champions her sophomore year. However, Oregon was the favorite in the game (or was picked by 538 and most pundits, anyway) and led at halftime.

Last year, she was 6-24 in the loss to Baylor. Now Baylor was a great team with outstanding perimeter defenders but...the best players find a way to overcome.

I'm not trying to turn this into a stupid "Sabrina isn't clutch" talking point but she's yet to really make it happen on the biggest stage with the chips down.

Great regular season player, really fun to watch, stat monster, yes. GOAT candidate? No.

I was at that game in Spokane and behind the ND bench, rooting for my undergrad alma mater, Arike hadn't become ND's GOAT candidate until that final 4. Shephard was the difference in that game, keeping Ruthie from playing well. Still ND had been to Final 4's recently and this was Oregon's 1st chance to get close. Arike had a chance to cement her ND GOAT status by winning it all again her senior year as she had become the face of WBB like Sabrina is this year. She came up 1 free throw short.

I agree Ionescu has to win it all this year to be in the running for GOAT, but if she does I think her accomplishments are a lot closer to Stewarts as I have commented in earlier posts in this thread. The simple point is UConn won 7 National Championships before Stewart and then won 4 with her. Oregon hadn't been to the NCAA tourney since 2005 and never had got past the 2nd round those previous times they had made it. Sabrina has taken them to regional championship each of three years so far, last year getting to Oregon's 1st Final 4. A National Championship from where Oregon was before she came puts her in the conversation given her statistical dominance.

 

[nwhoopfan]

Well we could go in circles forever. Ionescu played for a much better team during her FF run than Plum did. Neither team got much from their bench but UW basically didn't have one at all. At least UO had a really good starting 5. Washington basically had 3 players. And Plum scored 17 against Syracuse, not 11, FWIW.

 

[Flyinsouth]

Well we could go in circles forever. Ionescu played for a much better team during her FF run than Plum did. Neither team got much from their bench but UW basically didn't have one at all. At least UO had a really good starting 5. Washington basically had 3 players. And Plum scored 17 against Syracuse, not 11, FWIW.

Sabrina as a Freshman lead her team to an upset victory over the Senior Plum's Washington team in the PAC-12 Tourney in Seattle no less. That should count for something that she beat her head to head (I also think Osasor was the best player on the UW team that day with 27 rebounds and 6 assists). Plum did get to put up 33 shots in that game!

 

[jumpstart]

You can not pick an all-time GOAT. You certainly can't do it on a board that would be biased....They all bring something different to the table. She is absolutely one of the many GOAT's to have played......

 

[Tonyc]

Let me say this. There is not one player who was able to do what Diana did. Im not talking about scoreing or assists or rebounds. Im talking about finding a way to win. Diana knows how to win and she is a cut above every players in WBB and it aint even close. She carried the team and did the impossible at the impossible moment exactly when it needed to be done. She made everyone around her better and she got everybody around her involved. What she did, well I have never seen. Her performance is unmatched. Diana is the Greatest of all time and everybody else is second.

There are alot of great players out there and most of them have never won a NC. The difference is Diana knows how to win and she wins.

 

[domerduck]

Let me say this. There is not one player who was able to do what Diana did. Im not talking about scoreing or assists or rebounds. Im talking about finding a way to win. Diana knows how to win and she is a cut above every players in WBB and it aint even close. She carried the team and did the impossible at the impossible moment exactly when it needed to be done. She made everyone around her better and she got everybody around her involved. What she did, well I have never seen. Her performance is unmatched. Diana is the Greatest of all time and everybody else is second.

There are alot of great players out there and most of them have never won a NC. The difference is Diana knows how to win and she wins.

Rebecca Lobo and many other WBB pundits compare Sabrina with DT. It's true at this point Sabrina hasn't won a championship as she tries to take a school that never got past the 2nd round of the NCAAs and hadn't been to the tourney since 2005 to their very 1st championship, something Lobo did for UConn the 1st time in 1995. Remember before UConn won with Lobo, Geno made his 1st Final 4 in 1991 without Lobo. DT chose UConn who had already now won two championships over the one other championship caliber WCBB team (Summit's Tennessee). The Cali kid went across country and joined Geno to take UConn even further. UConn was coming off a National Championship year, as Diana as a Freshman along with Sue Bird and other UConn greats was able to get that team to the Final 4. Still she couldn't lead that team past Notre Dame, lead by Ruth Riley, who eventually won their 1st NC. After that she lead UConn to those 3 NC's, (UConn NCs #3, 4, & 5) and started the legend she has become. She took it even farther in the WNBA, Team USA & Olympic Golds, and overseas. Definitely a candidate for GOAT, as only Stewie has outdone her in WCBB.

I am sure you and many on Boneyard have watched more Taurasi games than Sabrina's as I have watched more Sabrina college games than DT's since I am an Oregon grad school double alumnus and live 45 miles from Eugene. When I read your post if you had replaced Diana's name with Sabrina, I would have sworn you gave a great post about her. Let's start with finding a way to win, your 3rd sentance. Go back to Jan. 8 her 1st year where Oregon, which was 0-3 in the PAC12 conference, beat a 20th ranked California team on the road on her 3 point buzzer beater. She was playing in her second game back after missing four with a broken thumb on her shooting hand. When I posted video of that shot on this year's Oregon at Cal thread. Plebe replied "This game was the turning point for Oregon's season in Sabrina's freshman year. Without this win, who knows but they might not have even made the NCAA tournament. "

Since then Sabrina hasn't missed a game for the Ducks Sabrina has made so many 3 point buzzer beaters (including the one where they crushed #3 Stanford on ESPN) that it's become common place. She has achieved two results in her college career that no other college player has ever done, man or woman-26 triple doubles and counting & 2k/1k/1k with all those numbers wil increase over the remainder of her career (up to 11 more games). She also did something only the 99/00 Tennessee team did, beat Team USA,. That Team USA was lead by the greats Diana Taurasi and Sue Bird.

Her college legacy is still incomplete so GOAT discussions are premature, BUT she does have a chance to do something that 99/00 UT team couldn't do, as they fell short that season when Geno got his second NC, the year before Diana came to UConn. So if a Sabrina led Oregon wins it all this year, she definitely should be considered with Taurasi, Stewart, Miller, & Holdsquaw as possible GOATs. As your words ring true about Diana, they do about Sabrina "she is a cut above every player in WBB and it ain't even close. She carried the team and did the impossible at the impossible moment exactly when it needed to be done. She made everyone around her better and she got everybody around her involved. What she did, well I have never seen. Her performance is unmatched. " If that Cali girl decided to be a Huskie she could have matched Breanna's 4 NCs and all of you woudl sing her praises. She chose to go one state up to a school that has never won anything in the NCAAs and try to do it there. She wanted her family to drive to her games and go to school with her twin brother. If she does complete the "unfinished business" with the NC, I hope you all recognize the greatness we have witnessed, like those UConn legends you so admire.

 

[j66kicker]

So if a Sabrina led Oregon wins it all this year, she definitely should be considered with Taurasi, Stewart, Miller, & Holdsquaw as possible GOATs. As your words ring true about Diana, they do about Sabrina "she is a cut above every player in WBB and it ain't even close. She carried the team and did the impossible at the impossible moment exactly when it needed to be done. She made everyone around her better and she got everybody around her involved. What she did, well I have never seen. Her performance is unmatched. " If that Cali girl decided to be a Huskie she could have matched Breanna's 4 NCs and all of you woudl sing her praises. She chose to go one state up to a school that has never won anything in the NCAAs and try to do it there. She wanted her family to drive to her games and go to school with her twin brother. If she does complete the "unfinished business" with the NC, I hope you all recognize the greatness we have witnessed, like those UConn legends you so admire.

Agree. And if she doesn't, she shouldn't - agree?

 

[nwhoopfan]

Sabrina as a Freshman lead her team to an upset victory over the Senior Plum's Washington team in the PAC-12 Tourney in Seattle no less. That should count for something that she beat her head to head (I also think Osasor was the best player on the UW team that day with 27 rebounds and 6 assists). Plum did get to put up 33 shots in that game!

Plum's Fr. year UW beat Stanford w/ a Sr. Chiney Ogwumike, handing the Card their only loss in conference that season. Stuff happens. And while the game you refer to was in Seattle, it was at Key Arena, not Hec Ed. UW never, ever plays at Key Arena other than when the Pac 12 Tourney was held there. They never had much success while the tourney was hosted there.

 

[meyers7]

This is funny. Who knows what the future brings? I plan to enjoy the games whether my favored teams (multiple) finish high or low. It’s just sports not brain surgery as Al McGuire once told me in a bar near Marquette many decades ago.

Al's an idiot. Sports is WAY more important than brain surgery. Much harder to be a WNBA player than a neurosurgeon. Hell there's 3600 plus neurosurgeons. Only 144 WNBA players.

 

[meyers7]

Okay I just went through the NCAA WBB career records list and I am genuinely puzzled by what in Diana Taurasi's (college only) career deserves such unreserved praise besides being a member of two NC teams.

Well there's your first mistake. It's three.

So I must be missing something.

Yes, yes you are.

UConn players like Maya Moore (3036 career pts), Breanna Stewart (2676),

Yes, Moore and Stewart (and Parker and maybe a couple others) can be in the discussion for GOAT (college). Ionescu is not one of them. She didn't do enough in college. Rings (plural for starters). And she ain't there and can't get there.

Now for GOAT of WBB, DT has no peers. As of yet. Moore was taking a run at her. Stewart might take a run at her. We'll have to see how Ionescu transitions to WNBA, Europe, WC/Olympics.

It's really pretty simple. Take every player in their prime. You're picking a team. Who's your first pick? DT, every time and twice on Sunday. And if you don't.....you lose the game. Just the way it is.

 

[Floridaduck]

Al's an idiot. Sports is WAY more important than brain surgery. Much harder to be a WNBA player than a neurosurgeon. Hell there's 3600 plus neurosurgeons. Only 144 WNBA players.

Ha ha...I think he meant losing from a patient’s point of view. One is just a game, the other is life or death. Should have included the context.