OT: I'm trying to buy a new car...

[UConnLen]

Lots of stuff talked about in this thread. The main topic was buying a great car. I've had Lexus GS400, an Infiniti G37XS and a BMW 650ci with SMG tranny. Lexus was very reliable and pretty fast but RWD and bad in snow. The Infiniti (w paddle shifters) and was an AWD car good in the snow, pretty maintenance free and fast enough. The BMW (paddle) was rear wheel drive and not recommended for snow (bought a new Tacoma for winters) and was really expensive to repair (battery $450, water pump $1000, convert.top switch $400). in 2015 I bought a CPO 2014 CPO Audi S4 (paddle, sport diff, carbon fiber inlays, upgraded leather etc) which had a sticker of $61,000 that I bought in June 2015 for $38,900 with 42K miles on it. It is by far the best car I have owned, fun to drive, handles great and with its supercharger is rated 333 HP but in reality has been tested by others at about 400 HP/400 fp. 0-60 in 4.5 seconds w launch control (I never used it LOL). Its great in the snow with a spare set of Nokian WRG3 winter tires that are way better than Blizzaks or any others. The Audi is also expensive to repair though, but more reliable than BMW from what I've seen (my son has a BMW 330i and I bought my granddaughter a CPO Audi A4 in 2013 while in HS. Note that for several years (2009-12 I think) Audi had oil consumption problems and her Audi was rebuilt at 99,000 miles last fall at no cost under the class action lawsuit. Audi was GREAT in handling that for me, but all the high end dealers have great service. Some cars are more expensive than others to repair.

 

[JMick]

A summer tire does not generate as much road noise as other tires, it's a noticeable difference, but be forewarned if you wait to remove them and you get a touch of snow, you are hosed. Plus, do not do the summer/winter tire thing if you don't have two sets of rims. Taking tires on and off a rim over time weakens the bead - well you can do it, but beware that at some point you risk compromising your tires integrity.

Seconded on having two sets of wheels. That means you can change them yourself too and save some money in the long run. You will probably have to buy a TPMS programmer, though.

Also, make sure you clear your brakes. I was going to buy steelies but they wouldn't cover the brakes on my car. It was only another $20/each for real wheels so it wasn't a big deal. Storage is also important. I know too many people that leave their winter or summer tires out in the shed. they should be kept in a garage at minimum, preferably a garage that is temperature controlled.

 

[HCope]

A summer tire does not generate as much road noise as other tires, it's a noticeable difference, but be forewarned if you wait to remove them and you get a touch of snow, you are hosed. Plus, do not do the summer/winter tire thing if you don't have two sets of rims. Taking tires on and off a rim over time weakens the bead - well you can do it, but beware that at some point you risk compromising your tires integrity.

Two sets is the way to go.

 

[minidarren]

I've bought new, leased and bought used. If going the route of used certainly hit up the CPO cars coming off lease. For me, leasing was the best option because I found myself buying a new car every 3 years or so. Since I was 18, I've gone exactly 1 month without a car payment. Cars are my crack.

1996 Dodge Intrepid
2000 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP
2004 Nissan Altima
2004 Dodge Ram 1500
2004 Dodge Ram 2500
2008 Nissan Armada
2012 Dodge Ram 2500
2012 Ford Edge
2014 GMC Sierra
2017 Cadillac CT6

 

[dennismenace]

In our mid-20s, my future wife & I each owned a used Saab, and learned a durable version of this.



Your goal in a 3yr old Certified Pre-owned (off-lease) car is to buy a vehicle that was driven (fewer miles than you would have driven if you'd bought new) by someone who sweats and farts less than you do. Let someone else absorb the biggest depreciation hit.

As a practical matter, I visited Carmax a couple times last week and was able to wander a lot filled with unlocked cars, which allowed me to sit inside, compare dashboard controls, seats, storage, etc. for at least 8 different small SUVs in about 90 minutes before bringing Lady Hans to evaluate the top 3 choices. No salesperson 'bothered' us either visit.

Some time this week there will be visits to dealerships whose inventories we've looked into online, in addition to reviews suggested. The goal is to buy near the end of the month, when sales goals are in greater focus and negotiation tips more toward the buyer's interest.


This is not my thread, but the current leading contenders are Honda CRV and Mazda CX5. Anyone care to weigh in?

Also looking and a lot of good posts here. I have two cars that need to be replaced. The more research I do the more good feedback I hear on Honda CRV's I have one mechanic I use and both he and his two mechanic sons each have CRV's and swear by them. He said the motor is just getting broken in at 100,000 miles. I have never had a SUV large or small and the
awd for the beach (surf casting) as well as snow is appealing. One of my vehicles is a rear wheel drive and I have to use studded snows with concrete blocks in the trunk in the winter. The downside to CRV's on the buying end is their resale value is so high! This is quite an adventure with all the choices available. I have a feeling the prices are going to be better because
sales are slowing down and inventory is building up. Maybe this fall. Good luck everyone and thanks for the input.

 

[dennismenace]

Has anyone had any luck with the recent Chrysler 300 or Dodge Charger AWD with the 8 speed transmission and V6 engine?

 

[Chin Diesel]

I've bought new, leased and bought used. If going the route of used certainly hit up the CPO cars coming off lease. For me, leasing was the best option because I found myself buying a new car every 3 years or so. Since I was 18, I've gone exactly 1 month without a car payment. Cars are my crack.

1996 Dodge Intrepid
2000 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP
2004 Nissan Altima
2004 Dodge Ram 1500
2004 Dodge Ram 2500
2008 Nissan Armada
2012 Dodge Ram 2500
2012 Ford Edge
2014 GMC Sierra
2017 Cadillac CT6

Mrs. Diesel was excited that her Acadia had a HUD on it. I told her my dad's late 1990's Grand Prix GTP had it 20 years ago. The GTP my old man bought was a pace car at Stafford.

Also looking and a lot of good posts here. I have two cars that need to be replaced. The more research I do the more good feedback I hear on Honda CRV's I have one mechanic I use and both he and his two mechanic sons each have CRV's and swear by them. He said the motor is just getting broken in at 100,000 miles. I have never had a SUV large or small and the
awd for the beach (surf casting) as well as snow is appealing. One of my vehicles is a rear wheel drive and I have to use studded snows with concrete blocks in the trunk in the winter. The downside to CRV's on the buying end is their resale value is so high! This is quite an adventure with all the choices available. I have a feeling the prices are going to be better because
sales are slowing down and inventory is building up. Maybe this fall. Good luck everyone and thanks for the input.

Can't go wrong with a CR-V if you need a commuter car for the week and a light sportman car for the weekend. Yes, they are bulletproof and yes they hold their value.

July/Aug/Sep can be good time to buy when dealers are trying to clear their 2017 inventory for the new 2018's.

 

[Chin Diesel]

If you want an amazing car that is luxurious, performs well, and is incredibly reliable take a look at an Acura TL. I did a quick search and found many 2012-13 models with around 50k miles in the $15,000 range. You get the reliability of a Honda, the performance of a BMW, and the luxury of a Cadillac.

I was very close to buying a CPO TL. I just couldn't find the right color combo of interior and exterior that I wanted.

 

[Fishy]

A summer tire does not generate as much road noise as other tires, it's a noticeable difference, but be forewarned if you wait to remove them and you get a touch of snow, you are hosed. Plus, do not do the summer/winter tire thing if you don't have two sets of rims. Taking tires on and off a rim over time weakens the bead - well you can do it, but beware that at some point you risk compromising your tires integrity.

I have a long commute - I've driven about 40,000 miles a year for 20 years. Our hobbies and sports have us in the car for a few hundred miles most weekends. We have hit 200,000 miles on six cars. I also live in upstate New York, so snow is a regular occurrence.

TL;DR - I drive more than you.

I have owned four-wheel drive cars. With the mileage I drive and the mileage I put on cars, it is just an added bit of mechanical complexity that I do not need.

I think 4WD has its function and I think it's helpful for some drivers in bad conditions. But, honestly, those people are probably better served just waiting out the snow storm. I see a lot of SUVs off the side of the road because the driver thought the 4WD badge on the back of their ute gave them superpowers. A high center of gravity and pillowy-soft sidewalls can turn a little wiggle into an offroad adventure on the Taconic Parkway.

A front-wheel drive car with all-season tires in good shape is all I find that I need. I do have snow tires mounted on steel wheels that I'll slap on if it seems like the winter's going to be a rough one. Snow tires turn a good snow car into a freaking mountain goat. I have no use for an SUV, but I imagine a small Subaru with snow tires is probably as close to unstoppable as you can get on a snow-covered road.

If you have tires at the end of their useful life, it doesn't matter whether you have four-wheel drive or not - you are a hazard on the road. Nothing will save a car on ice with no tread. Enjoy the guardrail.

 

[Milo65]

I owned a 2005 Audi A4 for 10 years, put 140k miles on it. The car ran great, but I will never own another German car again. They are a pain to maintain. They use special antifreeze, special steering fluid, synthetic oil, high test gas. The check engine light comes on early and often and not everyone will work on them. Parts are expensive and often not in stock, so something like a simple break job may take a couple of days as your mechanic waits for parts to be delivered.

 

[progrocks]

I owned an CRV for 11 months and I had to sell it because I moved overseas. I sold it for $1k less than I paid for it. That worked out well.

 

[Northbound]

I have a long commute - I've driven about 40,000 miles a year for 20 years. Our hobbies and sports have us in the car for a few hundred miles most weekends. We have hit 200,000 miles on six cars. I also live in upstate New York, so snow is a regular occurrence.

TL;DR - I drive more than you

I have owned four-wheel drive cars. With the mileage I drive and the mileage I put on cars, it is just an added bit of mechanical complexity that I do not need.

I think 4WD has its function and I think it's helpful for some drivers in bad conditions. But, honestly, those people are probably better served just waiting out the snow storm. I see a lot of SUVs off the side of the road because the driver thought the 4WD badge on the back of their ute gave them superpowers. A high center of gravity and pillowy-soft sidewalls can turn a little wiggle into an offroad adventure on the Taconic Parkway.

A front-wheel drive car with all-season tires in good shape is all I find that I need. I do have snow tires mounted on steel wheels that I'll slap on if it seems like the winter's going to be a rough one. Snow tires turn a good snow car into a freaking mountain goat. I have no use for an SUV, but I imagine a small Subaru with snow tires is probably as close to unstoppable as you can get on a snow-covered road.

If you have tires at the end of their useful life, it doesn't matter whether you have four-wheel drive or not - you are a hazard on the road. Nothing will save a car on ice with no tread. Enjoy the guardrail.

TLR - Nah you don't drive more than me and unless you travel a ton in the north country in the Winter you don't travel in worse conditions than I do - and nobody really cares about my driving habits but I'll tell you about them anyway.

Hudson Valley, that's not upstate. I live north and west of Albany and that's not even upstate. I travel often to upstate - think Massena, Malone, Ogdensburg, Gouverneur, Canton, Pulaski and then onto Eastern Canada - many times my commute is 4+ hours each way and I usually do it in a 1970's Toyota Land Cruiser - winter or summer. When someone say they have to travel 2 hours south to Syracuse, then they are upstate. The folks I work with upstate laugh when I say I'm from upstate and they always make sure to say "uh, not really" so I've now adopted their beliefs.

If you drive 40K a year, you drive a lot, but you don't drive more than me. We easily do 600 miles plus a weekend - be it to the ADK's or out to the cape. It's a 40+ minute roundtrip with not traffic or lights for me to get groceries - but whatever, nobody cares about my commute or my daily travels. I have a friend who is an attorney that puts 25K on his Yukon XL every 3 months.

4WD is very useful, but only in the hands of folks that understand it. It's as much the stop as it is the go in the winter and 4WD doesn't increase the stopping power. A capable 2WD car in the hands of someone that knows what they are doing is infinitely better than a 4WD vehicle in the hands of someone that is clueless. In that scenario what 4WD will do is make things worse for the driver because they don't understand what 4WD really does which leads to a false sense of confidence and they over drive their ability and regardless of winter of summer once that happens it's bad news.

There are a myriad of 4WD/AWD systems - read this for a primer - http://oppositelock.kinja.com/a-4-wd-what-is-awd-4wd-and-how-does-it-work-1650386909/1650531656 - it's a good basic outline of how these systems work. For example, I have more than a few Toyota FJ40's and some of have open differentials and others have locked diffs and there's a enormous difference in just that, never mind tire type for terrain, etc.

If I had a choice of car for the snow, car mind you, it would be a Volvo V70R, Mitsu Evo, or a Quattro on Hakapiliita's - i will tell you my '05 Land Cruiser with a center locking diff and duratracs is pretty darn good in the snow and I measure that by control and stopping not going, unless it's up my unplowed and unpaved driveway.

I do happen to like my Toyota FJ40 with studded snows or my Toyota FJ45 with BFG AT's and chains in the bed just in case - however that is not a practical option for most folks. The converse of that is a Toyota FJ40 with BFG MT's in the snow and an engine that is 2.5 times the horsepower that originally came with the vehicle - let me tell you that you are fully and I mean fully engaged in the driving experience - I had a trip back from Ottawa and one back from State College in snow storms at night last winter there was zero room for error. it's exhausting and no fun because you always know you're driving the car and there's no electronic bailout (i.e. traction control) and if you make a mistake there are no airbags, just flimsy doors and a lap belt.

I grew up in snow, but I would recommend that anyone doing a lot of snow driving make the investment and do the Bridgestone Winter Driving School in Steamboat and if you have kids sign them up for the Team Safety Driving School or it's equivalent in your area.

 

[Fishy]

It wasn't directed at you, per se - it was the generic "you". There are truckers who drive 175,000 miles a year, so there are people who drive more the rest of us. But trips to the Cape and the Adirondacks? Not impressed - doing weekly trips to Brewster from June through September.

My brother and I took the Bridgestone course back in 1999 or 2000, mostly in Mustangs for some reason. We also did one with Michelin in New Hampshire that was geared towards Michelin dealers care of a friend who was a distributor. Bridgestone was far, far better, but I think most people would be well-served to just stay home when it snows.

FJ40's are ridiculous automobiles for this day and age - why would you subject yourself to that? There are other drivers on the road - what if they make a mistake?

 

[Fishy]

I owned a 2005 Audi A4 for 10 years, put 140k miles on it. The car ran great, but I will never own another German car again. They are a pain to maintain. They use special antifreeze, special steering fluid, synthetic oil, high test gas. The check engine light comes on early and often and not everyone will work on them. Parts are expensive and often not in stock, so something like a simple break job may take a couple of days as your mechanic waits for parts to be delivered.

This is exactly the experience I had with our Audi.

Nothing was ever simple to fix and the kicker was that whenever we got the car back, whoever fixed it would have invariable screwed up the undercar splash shield. Twice, shields came loose at highway speeds because they didn't use the right fasteners in right places. I started to take the shields off before I dropped them off for repairs. Wonderful car to drive, horrible car to own.

 

[Hoophound]

Audi is a wonderful car to lease for 36 months. Sitting in ours right now and I am in love with it, but I won't be in it past 50k miles.

 

[Chin Diesel]

Pivoting to the OP for a minute.

If you want a new car in $15k-$20K price range, find a new car you want in that range and take it for a drive. Then find some of the CPO's that have been suggested that are in the same price range and take them for a drive. See how the features and capabilities of the cars match up.

 

[SubbaBub]

If it was to your benefit, they wouldn't offer it.

If you want to drive a new car every year or two, don't drive a lot, and have a perpetual car payment, it's OK if the fine print checks out.

If you are using it to drive a car you can't afford, it is a recipe for financial ruin.

I've never wanted to lease a car personally.

 

[SubbaBub]

Pivoting to the OP for a minute.

If you want a new car in $15k-$20K price range, find a new car you want in that range and take it for a drive. Then find some of the CPO's that have been suggested that are in the same price range and take them for a drive. See how the features and capabilities of the cars match up.

New cars are about brand and model. Used cars are about model reputation and the history of that particular car.

 

[Dream Jobbed 2.0]

Are Kia and Hyundai actually reliable now? I was gonna look at accents when I got my Fit but I wandered the lot for 20 minutes but no one approached me.

 

[intlzncster]

Are Kia and Hyundai actually reliable now? I was gonna look at accents when I got my Fit but I wandered the lot for 20 minutes but no one approached me.

Yes. They've both made significant improvements since they earned their 'not so hot' reputations. Hyundai even helped lead some of the current wave in car design (style).

Newer, Elantras/Sonatas are great. I feel like these cars are the new equivalent of 90s Corolla/Camry's, a more economical solid sedan--not that they'll last like those did (bulletproof), just that that is their place in the market. I can't speak to Kia specific models, as I've had zero personal experience, but I've heard good things about the Sportage.

My dad owns a 5 year old Elantra that is a great car. Not many frills, but it's comfortable, drives nice, and has been very reliable. Only knock on that model is that it REQUIRES snow tires. Sucks without them. Also, since the rear of the car is designed so minimally, the vision through the blindspot windows isn't good.

 

[Chin Diesel]

JD Powers Rankings

2017 U.S. Initial Quality Study (IQS)

 

[HuskyHawk]

Highly agree with several posters about 3-yr lease CPO's.

My wife and I both out a bunch of miles in cars which depreciates the hell out of them come trade in time.

I have a 2012 Hyundai Genesis sedan, drives great.

We just traded in my wife's 2011 GMC Yukon SLT-2 for a 2014 GMC Acadia Denali. Acadia was coming off 3-year lease with about 39k miles.

A CPO car has been certified by dealership to meet certain standards. If your heart is set on bimmers, look CPO route.

As others have said, if you treat it right, service as needed, they will last. Do the math on post-purchase sustainment costs for oil changes , servicing schedule and gas type. There is a real difference between premium recommended and premium required.

I bought a CPO 328xi, and it was flawless for four years. Sold it because the ride quality was killing me on our potholed roads. But no turbo and no iDrive, which was a disaster back then.

Cost of even routine maintenance is high, but I did my own oil changes, which saved a few bucks. Takes 9 quarts of synthetic.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Some thoughts on snow tires. FWD with snows is mostly better than AWD, if you have sufficient ground clearance. A BMW sedan likely won't. The BMW AWD is excellent in the snow. Being RWD biased, it is much more controllable than FWD biased AWD systems. Snows help you steer and stop, which AWD does not. But...changing them is a pain in the ass and consumes storage space. So there is one other option, Nokian WR G2 all season tires are rated as snow tires. The ones I tried were spectacular in the snow, and only slightly worse than a normal all seasons in dry. Tread life isn't great, but you'd expect that.

 

[Northbound]

It wasn't directed at you, per se - it was the generic "you". There are truckers who drive 175,000 miles a year, so there are people who drive more the rest of us. But trips to the Cape and the Adirondacks? Not impressed - doing weekly trips to Brewster from June through September.

My brother and I took the Bridgestone course back in 1999 or 2000, mostly in Mustangs for some reason. We also did one with Michelin in New Hampshire that was geared towards Michelin dealers care of a friend who was a distributor. Bridgestone was far, far better, but I think most people would be well-served to just stay home when it snows.

FJ40's are ridiculous automobiles for this day and age - why would you subject yourself to that? There are other drivers on the road - what if they make a mistake?

It worked out then since I wasn't trying to impress you - I suppose some people want to anonymous folks online to what end I have no idea.

If they make a mistake it may be a very bad day for me - I want a smile on my face when I'm driving and in the 40 and 45 that's what happens unless I absolutely have to drive on the interstate in a winter storm.

I could drive the 100 series land cruiser or the 7 series bmw's but the 40 series are so much more fun - you're actually driving - it's the same with the '71 Alfa, you drive that car, today's cars not so much. Today's cars are better in almost every way, but have lost something in translation for me.

That said, even fellow devout Land Cruiser guys question my sanity.