I can't help myself (Tenn, merged thread)

[Fairfield Fan]

Honestly, I'm conflicted. On the one hand, I see Tennessee's loss as cosmic justice. It was Summitt who falsely accused Coach Geno and Connecticut of illegal practices in recruiting, without a shred of evidence. It was Summitt who refused to apologize, indeed refusing to ever again play Connecticut. And it is HW who when she had the opportunity- numerous opportunities- to apologize to Coach Geno, refused to do so.

Son in that respect, I'm satisfied that Tennessee is performing poorly, while our ladies are continuing to hit the highs they've always achieved. As it was once said, the moral arc of the universe is long, but it bends to justice.

On the other hand, I am saddened to see this ardent and dedicated servant of Tennessee women's basketball proceed in years-long virtual slow-motion toward her firing. HW was a dedicated assistant coach in one of the most successful programs in the history of the sport. Yet it is becoming quite clear that she has not transitioned from an assistant and recruiter to the responsibilities of a head coach. She continues to recruit effectively, yet continues to fail to meld those recruits into an effective team. Those recruits keep lashing out at the end of the season, some quitting the team, some transferring. And it appears clear from her top athlete's comments that there will be more of the same, unless she is fired, and fired quickly.

As was pointed out previously, she has six All-Americans on that squad, yet for the first time in program history, Tennessee failed to win 20 games in a season. She's now lost 47 games in the last four years, including racking up the first 13-loss season in program history.

Cosmic justice is Coach Geno's having achieved yet another 30-win season, and without a whiff of scandal.

But I will not be celebrating when HW is let go. It will be a sad day for her and for Tennessee.

 

[Wbbfan1]

I credit Shannon Bobbitt more for the Lady Vols last two Championships. Parker may have been the best player on the Lady Vols, but without Shannon they don't win those two Championships.

Well she isn't going to win that game... if she is still there as coach.... Tennessee has to think long term.... because if they do not get a teacher and a coach worthy and demanding of respect, neither of which they have had under Holly... then they will slip into irrelevancy... they are almost there now.....

It is just a hot mess down there..... what would Tenn be if it did not have the history of Pat Summit.... and how much do they still matter.... i do not know.... Holly's first season as HC she had the "Grind for 9" slogan.. but ever since then you have not heard anyone from Tennessee speak or hint at the prospect of another National Championship.....

I was just thinking today..... TN owes a big card of thanks to Candace Parker.... for single-handedly bringing them their last 2 championships.... Pat was out of her prime as coach.... still stressing defense and rebounding in an era when WCBB was in the midst of change and varying offensive schemes.... it had been a decade since their last title.... and Candace brought them 2.... now it has been another decade.... with watered down schedule and precious few signature wins.....

Also thinking today of the many coaches who could make a difference down there.... the fan boards all want Becky Hammon, or Jeff Walz, or Kara Lawson... people who would not go there for that gig.... but the Quinnipiac coach and any number of good coaches i saw today would be an improvement over Holly.....

Oh Holly.... complains all the time about her team "quick shooting" but lets it happen.... complains about her team's lack of effort.... but lets it happen.... (why not give those who do not show pride in their play or indifference a long seat on the bench?) complains about too many turnovers but doesn't work on correcting it..... now she is ready to go back to the fundamentals this coming summer and seek a fresh start for the program.... kinda what she should have been doing each and every season for the entire length of her tenure....

 

[oldude]

Honestly, I'm conflicted. On the one hand, I see Tennessee's loss as cosmic justice. It was Summitt who falsely accused Coach Geno and Connecticut of illegal practices in recruiting, without a shred of evidence. It was Summitt who refused to apologize, indeed refusing to ever again play Connecticut. And it is HW who when she had the opportunity- numerous opportunities- to apologize to Coach Geno, refused to do so.

Son in that respect, I'm satisfied that Tennessee is performing poorly, while our ladies are continuing to hit the highs they've always achieved. As it was once said, the moral arc of the universe is long, but it bends to justice.

On the other hand, I am saddened to see this ardent and dedicated servant of Tennessee women's basketball proceed in years-long virtual slow-motion toward her firing. HW was a dedicated assistant coach in one of the most successful programs in the history of the sport. Yet it is becoming quite clear that she has not transitioned from an assistant and recruiter to the responsibilities of a head coach. She continues to recruit effectively, yet continues to fail to meld those recruits into an effective team. Those recruits keep lashing out at the end of the season, some quitting the team, some transferring. And it appears clear from her top athlete's comments that there will be more of the same, unless she is fired, and fired quickly.

As was pointed out previously, she has six All-Americans on that squad, yet for the first time in program history, Tennessee failed to win 20 games in a season. She's now lost 47 games in the last four years, including racking up the first 13-loss season in program history.

Cosmic justice is Coach Geno's having achieved yet another 30-win season, and without a whiff of scandal.

But I will not be celebrating when HW is let go. It will be a sad day for her and for Tennessee.

I know that many UConn fans will never forgive Pat and TN for accusing UConn of recruiting violations. I’m not one of them. Pat wrote up her infamous 40 pg memo to the NCAA shortly before she was diagnosed with Alzheimer’s, a disease that would take her life soon thereafter.

Take some time to read up on early symptoms of Alzheimer’s: irritability, difficulty reasoning, impatience, etc. There is considerable evidence that Pat was battling early onset Alzheimer’s when she wrote her memo. I for one forgive her.

 

[Wbbfan1]

Post Game Press Conference:

 

[Big Shoulders]

Hello Huskies,
I've been registered with you guys for a long time, but have never posted before, until now....But, with the women's basketball program on Rocky Top reeling, from 7 years of Holly Warlick in control, it is quite obvious to the basketball world, changes at the top need to be made.

As a person Holly is aces, but as a coach she may be deuces...She never takes personal blame for the losses, which drives the fan base nuts....If a car keeps crashing into a wall, it may be the drivers fault, not the tires or any mechanical parts, but the person behind the wheel is usually to blame....

Westbrook, the LV player that spoke up in disgust, is voicing the opinion of many basketball fans, and probably players, as well....I've never been a fan of players speaking up and demanding change before, but I understand her frustrations...

Yes, Holly does not understand the value of a proper "time out" taken, and that has also driven everyone a little nuts too...Not sure why she is reluctant to use them, but it is a mystery without a lot of clues.

Sports message boards are an interesting collection of various supporters/fans opinions of their particular teams' accomplishments and failures....You guys, for years, have been cheering the positive results that have been obtained by your University in the competitive world of Women's College Basketball...This is Good.

Perhaps someday, we fans of Lady Vol Basketball can compete for titles once again..But for now, we will just have to watch with admiration at the success you guys are having....

With our two Universities scheduled to play each other next season, perhaps the bad blood between the fan bases, can be replaced with good ol' basketball talk...I sure hope so.

Good luck Huskies...Ya'll are Aces. (And that is a very good thing)

 

[Charliebball]

If HW resigns/is fired and/or Westbrook leaves TN, don’t be surprised if Ms Horston withdraws her commitment to the LV’s.

I would hope Ms Horston would consider her options if there's a coaching change at Tenn but then again if Westbrook leaves won't Horston be in line for the starting point/combo guard next year?

 

[Charliebball]

I dont think so at all. The trio of Westbrook, Davis and Green are extremely talented but play in an offense with zero discipline. These players are coming from HS and Aau programs where the entire offense likely revolved around them so they havent learned how to find their role on a team with other talented players. It is something that Holly doesnt teach and most players at other programs take a year two to find their role (ex. Megan Walker, Jackie Young, Lauren Cox). Put these players on disciplined offensive teams and have them play for a coach who can teach and motivate, then you'll see how good they really are. Look at how much better Alexa Middleton and Te'a Cooper are at their new programs. Both looked awful at Tennessee and I never saw either as being very talented. If you told me 2 years ago that Middleton would be a starting PG for a top 10 team, I would've said you're insane.

2017 class was weak overall, so she may not be as good as other #1/#2 recruits but Westbrook is extremely talented. Big guard with range, athletic and can take you off the dribble, hit the pull up jumper, find a teammate, etc. Shed be dynamic as a 2 guard and can light opposing teams up. As a PG she is turnover prone but she has good vision and finds teammates well.

Green is also great off the dribble and has a very good pullup jumper. She can hit from deep and had glimmers of greatness this season, especially her first half vs. Notre Dame.

Davis has a great inside out game and can take over games on the wing.


If any of them elect to transfer, theyll be very hot commodities and most here would salivate at the opportunity to land one of them.

Even Mimi Collins looked very good in limited minutes as a frosh. Good around the basket and a great perimeter shot for a forward. Their very good players. It's just dreadful coaching.

I'd take Davis in a heartbeat at UConn.....................she has tremendous ability but has just never been coached/used properly........

 

[Wbbfan1]

Pat Summitt did not write the accusations against UConn. Did she allow them to go forward to the SEC. That she is responsible for. The accusations were written a Moderator on the Tenn Fan Board, "The Summitt". This person along with a couple of her friends has a hatred for everything Geno and UConn. They were willing to do anything to take down Geno and UConn and the Women's AD Department went along with them. Tenn had separate Men's and Women's AD's at that time.

I know that many UConn fans will never forgive Pat and TN for accusing UConn of recruiting violations. I’m not one of them. Pat wrote up her infamous 40 pg memo to the NCAA shortly before she was diagnosed with Alzheimer’s, a disease that would take her life soon thereafter.

Take some time to read up on early symptoms of Alzheimer’s: irritability, difficulty reasoning, impatience, etc. There is considerable evidence that Pat was battling early onset Alzheimer’s when she wrote her memo. I for one forgive her.

 

[Bayareahusky]

Good piece Bay...
Especially liked the tribute to Candace...now seen in perspective, certainly correct.
And your initial thought about teacher and coach worthy of respect...spot on.
But I don't completely agree with regard your list of super coaches.
Sure, let's forget Waltz...He has no reason to go anywhere.

But for Kara and/or Becky..it might be a smart career move.
Is Becky...sooo wedded to the men's side? I would certainly ask

In Kara's case there is the loyalty argument..."Please take all this wonderful talent and make something of it.

i remember almost (not quite) poaching a world-class conductor for a group I directed...found the soft underbelly of his ambition and played it like a violin.

I certainly wouldn't give up on those two; either would perfect...It would be fun having another major rivalry develop (or redevelop).

You could even let Holly hang around as an assistant (or something).
I truly believe she would be grateful and supportive when the inevitable turnaround occurs.

OT: to my own thoughts...One of the most gifted and competitive players on the UTenn side hardly got in the game and was totally uninvolved in its outcome. too bad, because she might have made a difference.
“She has a chip on her shoulder,” Assistant Coach Bridgette Gordon said. “You talk about tough and gritty? That is Rae Burrell.
Holly speaks about the qualities she requires...Duh, it's sitting right next to her on the bench.

Has a similar background to a certain young woman we fondly recall...
Nevada?...High Jumper? give me a break.
OF course to understand the breadth of Gabby's feat...As a 15-year old, she jumped 6' 1.5"....Rae was Nevada champ in her senior year with a mark of 5' 6"
Geno would know what to do with her.

Thank you msf22b.... yes on the coaches.... would be nice for TN fans to see an alpha coach take the reins..... I am with the Volnation posters who would love Kara to give it a go.... I am a big Kara fan.... love her as announcer.... but don't think her heart is in HC job..... she likes the trajectory she is on now....

Yes tough gritty.... that would be a big plus.... you know who I liked.... Bashara Graves.... and before that Stricklen.... wonderful players....... with fight in them.... what happened to the Tennessee "fight" .. Westbrook was pretty pedestrian yesterday.... with 6 turnovers.... and not a lot of visible "grit' and then to say openly at end of game.... that staff should change wow....

I think the wonderful players the LVs have can change if given a new environment within which to play... in the 10 or so games I saw Tenn play this year ... I never saw Rennia "get after it" as Holly likes to say.... to say she is an attitude problem is an overreach for me because I do not know her... but it sure looks like that.... she looks like she frequently does not care about her play.... play offense when she feels like it, and defense is not too good..... I would rather have a Michelle Marciniak or Tamika Catchings.... every game they were in you knew you had a fight on your hands....

Maybe change will get there.....hope for you folks that happens

 

[BroadwayVa]

Was over to VolNation again, most posters can't figure out why Holly keeps them time outs and not use them when opponent goes on a run. It dawned at me Holly does actually use them when LadyVols are down by 10 with less than 1 minute to play.

TIME OUT'S are used by smart coaches reluctantly but effectively : What does she tell her team? Stop doing what you are doing --do something else? I was pleased UT didn't get a chance to play UConn again. Their size would worry me.

 

[warbler1055]

As others have pointed out, there were quite a bit of history between Geno and Pat Summit, between UConn and Tennessee programs and players. I remembered the great games between the 2 programs and how exciting it was for me. Regular or championship did not matter, the games were an event where anybody who was in WBB back then would be watching them live or on tv or listening on broadcasts.
So I am kind saddened that Tennessee is not doing well in the tourney, at the same time I remembered the bad things Tennessee did against UConn, for example Bird and Taurasi were accused of giving ride to Maya Moore in Atlanta when both of them were in Russia, or something like that. And all the cheating accusations against Geno, when he was one of the first to contribute to Summit's Alzheimer fund. It would be great if UConn and Tennessee can resume the great rivalry which already existed between the 2 schools.

 

[Bayareahusky]

You, know half of this thread sounds like it is just "ragging" on Tennessee. Be careful. It sounds almost like "glee" when you are speaking about the current condition of Tenneessee and it's players. What if Geno leaves and the new UConn coach turns this program into a second class program? What goes around comes around.

For my money.... when Geno DOES decide to go along into the distance.... yes we will have a dip but not to the extent TN has had.... because we will not try to continue proud tradition by tapping the top assistant, a great asst coach and foil to the alpha HC, but without leadership skills.... who would, for instance , be unable to sit player on bench if she is unable to give it anything but her best.... if look at our coaches.... Shea is better teacher and HC material than Holly ever was.....

 

[oldude]

I would hope Ms Horston would consider her options if there's a coaching change at Tenn but then again if Westbrook leaves won't Horston be in line for the starting point/combo guard next year?

The word is that Horston and Westbrook are close and that Westbrook’s presence at TN is one of the primary reasons Horston chose the LV’s. Beyond that, the LV’s have another pg on the roster (Massengil) and the thought of throwing a freshman pg into a starting role at the mess that is TN WBB is not a very good option imo.

 

[vtcwbuff]

I watched Walker a lot last year and I wasn't impressed. Look at her now and you see what good coaching can do.

A corollary to this is that it also takes a player willing to commit to what the coaches are teaching.

 

[BroadwayVa]

Pat Summitt did not write the accusations against UConn. Did she allow them to go forward to the SEC. That she is responsible for. The accusations were written a Moderator on the Tenn Fan Board, "The Summitt". This person along with a couple of her friends has a hatred for everything Geno and UConn. They were willing to do anything to take down Geno and UConn and the Women's AD Department went along with them. Tenn had separate Men's and Women's AD's at that time.

I go along with @oldude ON this one. Regardless of who wrote the nasty gram to the NCAA about Uconn--The AD/Admin pushed it forward and I doubt any of them had th disease Pat had. I loved beating UT and Pat and those games that was great basket ball and to Pats credit she was willing to play the up start UCONN and helped to put UC on the map for recruiting. I blame the disease more than Pat , much as @oldude STATED.
Playing a Holly team just isnt the same! When a coach has to read notes during a timeout--nothing good will happen --I think those note have driving driving directions back to Knoxville.

 

[Fairfield Fan]

I know that many UConn fans will never forgive Pat and TN for accusing UConn of recruiting violations. I’m not one of them. Pat wrote up her infamous 40 pg memo to the NCAA shortly before she was diagnosed with Alzheimer’s, a disease that would take her life soon thereafter.

Take some time to read up on early symptoms of Alzheimer’s: irritability, difficulty reasoning, impatience, etc. There is considerable evidence that Pat was battling early onset Alzheimer’s when she wrote her memo. I for one forgive her.

My mother died of Alzheimer's, or complications there from. Know all about it. I, too, wondered whether her spite and accusations were symptoms of her yet undiagnosed disease.

But that doesn't let off the hook her AD, who put forward those accusations. And it doesn't let HW off the hook for failing to apologize in the many years since. Or to at least attempt to put the controversies in the past by talking about scheduling a game with Connecticut.

No, HW had every opportunity to make things right, but failed to do so. That's on her.

 

[oldude]

Pat Summitt did not write the accusations against UConn. Did she allow them to go forward to the SEC. That she is responsible for. The accusations were written a Moderator on the Tenn Fan Board, "The Summitt". This person along with a couple of her friends has a hatred for everything Geno and UConn. They were willing to do anything to take down Geno and UConn and the Women's AD Department went along with them. Tenn had separate Men's and Women's AD's at that time.

Yes, some AH on a TN’s fan board first raised the charges against UConn. But make no mistake about it. The AD may have sent out the detailed report to the NCAA, but they would never have done so without the full support and participation of Pat who could have easily put a stop to it given her position at UT. When UT ended the season series with UConn, it was Pat, not the AD who took some verbal swings at Geno.

I am convinced Pat was suffering from Alzheimer’s at the time. It is time for Husky fans to let go of this.

 

[Fairfield Fan]

Thank you msf22b.... yes on the coaches.... would be nice for TN fans to see an alpha coach take the reins..... I am with the Volnation posters who would love Kara to give it a go.... I am a big Kara fan.... love her as announcer.... but don't think her heart is in HC job..... she likes the trajectory she is on now....

Yes tough gritty.... that would be a big plus.... you know who I liked.... Bashara Graves.... and before that Stricklen.... wonderful players.. with fight in them.... what happened to the Tennessee "fight" .. Westbrook was pretty pedestrian yesterday.... with 6 turnovers.... and not a lot of visible "grit' and then to say openly at end of game.... that staff should change wow....

I think the wonderful players the LVs have can change if given a new environment within which to play... in the 10 or so games I saw Tenn play this year ... I never saw Rennia "get after it" as Holly likes to say.... to say she is an attitude problem is an overreach for me because I do not know her... but it sure looks like that.... she looks like she frequently does not care about her play.... play offense when she feels like it, and defense is not too good..... I would rather have a Michelle Marciniak or Tamika Catchings.... every game they were in you knew you had a fight on your hands....

Maybe change will get there.....hope for you folks that happens

The thing is that the game has progressed since Tennessee last won a championship, last went to the Final Four, last was a "great program." Honestly, the game doesn't need Tennessee anymore. Great coaches have made their marks at Baylor and Louisville, at Oregon and Notre Dame, at Mississippi State and Maryland. The glory that was Tennessee is a thing of the past.

The future is with the long-time greats like Geno and Tara and Muffet, and with the new greats at Louisville and Baylor and, perhaps, South Carolina.

If one or more of the Tennessee All-Americans on the team, or signed to go there, changes her mind, it will close the books on Tennessee and HW.

And the game will be just fine.

 

[oldude]

My mother died of Alzheimer's, or complications there from. Know all about it. I, too, wondered whether her spite and accusations were symptoms of her yet undiagnosed disease.

But that doesn't let off the hook her AD, who put forward those accusations. And it doesn't let HW off the hook for failing to apologize in the many years since. Or to at least attempt to put the controversies in the past by talking about scheduling a game with Connecticut.

No, HW had every opportunity to make things right, but failed to do so. That's on her.

So here’s the problem I have with your suggestion. Pat pushed these charges. Pat ended the series with UConn. Pat was and is a legend at TN. You’re asking a TN AD (there have been 3-4 since Pat retired) or a woman who worships her memory to apologize on her behalf. That would be akin to Geno’s successor apologizing to everyone on the receiving end of all the less than civil comments he’s made through the years. It’s water under the bridge and it ain’t gonna happen.

If Geno is willing to forgive and forget, we should certainly be willing to follow his lead.

 

[BroadwayVa]

My mother died of Alzheimer's, or complications there from. Know all about it. I, too, wondered whether her spite and accusations were symptoms of her yet undiagnosed disease.

But that doesn't let off the hook her AD, who put forward those accusations. And it doesn't let HW off the hook for failing to apologize in the many years since. Or to at least attempt to put the controversies in the past by talking about scheduling a game with Connecticut.

No, HW had every opportunity to make things right, but failed to do so. That's on her.

@Fairfield Fan --You Nailed it. BLAME the UT administration/AD etc. I doubt ALL of them had mental illnesses.
Sorry about your mom. We've had it too--hard to comprehend the words and actions until it is diagnosed. Bless you too living with one so afflicted isn't the easiest life. For caring for you mom I thank you.

 

[vtcwbuff]

Pat Summitt did not write the accusations against UConn. Did she allow them to go forward to the SEC. That she is responsible for. The accusations were written a Moderator on the Tenn Fan Board, "The Summitt". This person along with a couple of her friends has a hatred for everything Geno and UConn. They were willing to do anything to take down Geno and UConn and the Women's AD Department went along with them. Tenn had separate Men's and Women's AD's at that time.

I have believed that for years. There was a deeply entrenched old girls club at Tennessee and Pat Summitt was the chairman. Incensed at perceived negative recruiting of Maya Moore by Auriemma, they issued the really stupid list of silly "violations" because they didn't have the balls to come out with the real reason behind the "he cheated" accusation.

 

[mbr33ct]

You, know half of this thread sounds like it is just "ragging" on Tennessee. Be careful. It sounds almost like "glee" when you are speaking about the current condition of Tenneessee and it's players. What if Geno leaves and the new UConn coach turns this program into a second class program? What goes around comes around.

I feel pretty confident if and when the time comes, UConn will not sink to the level of the LadyVols...for one Holly will not be on the "short list".

 

[BroadwayVa]

So here’s the problem I have with your suggestion. Pat pushed these charges. Pat ended the series with UConn. Pat was and is a legend at TN. You’re asking a TN AD (there have been 3-4 since Pat retired) or a woman who worships her memory to apologize on her behalf. That would be akin to Geno’s successor apologizing to everyone on the receiving end of all the less than civil comments he’s made through the years. It’s water under the bridge and it ain’t gonna happen.

If Geno is willing to forgive and forget, we should certainly be willing to follow his lead.

DANG YOU @oldude! --How dare you use Intelligence, compassion, caring, and logic in your posting--I'm losing faith in this board.. Where did the nasties go? THANKS--well stated..

 

[UConnCat]

Knoxville TV reporter who is with the Tenn men's team (and fans, boosters, AD) in Columbus says decision on Holly could come as soon as Monday.

 

[Charliebball]

The word is that Horston and Westbrook are close and that Westbrook’s presence at TN is one of the primary reasons Horston chose the LV’s. Beyond that, the LV’s have another pg on the roster (Massengil) and the thought of throwing a freshman pg into a starting role at the mess that is TN WBB is not a very good option imo.

Massengill doesn't seem to have a lot of fans on the LV forum but I haven't watched her play so who knows if she is good enough to be given that job..............if the coach gets booted I'll be curious to see what Horston does........