I can't help myself (Tenn, merged thread) | Page 3 | The Boneyard

I can't help myself (Tenn, merged thread)

UcMiami

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That's just it @UcMiami most of them have no idea what good basketball looks like. Even worse, many of them believe that it maybe wrong for everyone else but THEY will make it right because THEY are so supremely talented. The programs you mention UCONN, ND, MsSt and a few others are the exceptions. For the vast majority of the other programs fundamentals, knowledge of the game & effort are negotiable items.
:)
Yeah, but so few are making decisions on their own these days. They have AAU and HS coaches, and personal trainers in their corner - those people should have a better idea. (I leave parents on the side because they are more hit and miss in terms of anything beyond their daughters talent.)

And TN is not just a little below other schools in terms of their brand of basketball - they have genuinely looked terrible in terms of coaching and player development - it isn't looking at team like UNC which has been mediocre in terms of results
 
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Been thinking for a while now that what we're seeing is a kind of organized resistance, a work slow down, if you will, from the players on this team. One game things click, next game the wheels go in different directions. It's almost as if they want to speed up the regime change..
 
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Well - these high recruit kids seem to eat and breath basketball and unlike 10 years ago, you can watch your favorite team's games on-line or on TV pretty consistently. They spend a lot of time on the recruiting process and have lots of advisers and trainers in their corner. They should have a pretty good idea about how the game should be played and when it looks 'right' and when it looks wrong. You watch ND or MsSt or Louisville play and it looks right almost every time, watch TN over the last decade and it hasn't.

So yeah, I think these 16 and 17 year olds should be able to see a little more than just the sign "Tennessee Invented the Game of Women's Basketball".
The parental influence steering these kids to big name schools has increased greatly over the last 10-15 years and is a big factor in the large increase in transfers. That’s not to say they shouldn’t be involved, especially academically but a lot of parents buy the hype of the website “analysts” and the AAU coaches about the kid’s talent and think the kid is good enough to play anywhere. Then the kid winds up in a poor coaching situation or a numbers crunch.
 
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If HW resigns/is fired and/or Westbrook leaves TN, don’t be surprised if Ms Horston withdraws her commitment to the LV’s.
What is the rule on that signed LOI?
 

bballnut90

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Zero fundamentals before and after arriving on campus. That talent is overrated by the gurus with Westbrook topping the list.


I dont think so at all. The trio of Westbrook, Davis and Green are extremely talented but play in an offense with zero discipline. These players are coming from HS and Aau programs where the entire offense likely revolved around them so they havent learned how to find their role on a team with other talented players. It is something that Holly doesnt teach and most players at other programs take a year two to find their role (ex. Megan Walker, Jackie Young, Lauren Cox). Put these players on disciplined offensive teams and have them play for a coach who can teach and motivate, then you'll see how good they really are. Look at how much better Alexa Middleton and Te'a Cooper are at their new programs. Both looked awful at Tennessee and I never saw either as being very talented. If you told me 2 years ago that Middleton would be a starting PG for a top 10 team, I would've said you're insane.

2017 class was weak overall, so she may not be as good as other #1/#2 recruits but Westbrook is extremely talented. Big guard with range, athletic and can take you off the dribble, hit the pull up jumper, find a teammate, etc. Shed be dynamic as a 2 guard and can light opposing teams up. As a PG she is turnover prone but she has good vision and finds teammates well.

Green is also great off the dribble and has a very good pullup jumper. She can hit from deep and had glimmers of greatness this season, especially her first half vs. Notre Dame.

Davis has a great inside out game and can take over games on the wing.


If any of them elect to transfer, theyll be very hot commodities and most here would salivate at the opportunity to land one of them.

Even Mimi Collins looked very good in limited minutes as a frosh. Good around the basket and a great perimeter shot for a forward. Their very good players. It's just dreadful coaching.
 
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I dont think so at all. The trio of Westbrook, Davis and Green are extremely talented but play in an offense with zero discipline. These players are coming from HS and Aau programs where the entire offense likely revolved around them so they havent learned how to find their role on a team with other talented players. It is something that Holly doesnt teach and most players at other programs take a year two to find their role (ex. Megan Walker, Jackie Young, Lauren Cox). Put these players on disciplined offensive teams and have them play for a coach who can teach and motivate, then you'll see how good they really are. Look at how much better Alexa Middleton and Te'a Cooper are at their new programs. Both looked awful at Tennessee and I never saw either as being very talented. If you told me 2 years ago that Middleton would be a starting PG for a top 10 team, I would've said you're insane.

2017 class was weak overall, so she may not be as good as other #1/#2 recruits but Westbrook is extremely talented. Big guard with range, athletic and can take you off the dribble, hit the pull up jumper, find a teammate, etc. Shed be dynamic as a 2 guard and can light opposing teams up. As a PG she is turnover prone but she has good vision and finds teammates well.

Green is also great off the dribble and has a very good pullup jumper. She can hit from deep and had glimmers of greatness this season, especially her first half vs. Notre Dame.

Davis has a great inside out game and can take over games on the wing.


If any of them elect to transfer, theyll be very hot commodities and most here would salivate at the opportunity to land one of them.

Even Mimi Collins looked very good in limited minutes as a frosh. Good around the basket and a great perimeter shot for a forward. Their very good players. It's just dreadful coaching.
I won’t disagree with you on this as you see them more than I. My observations are based on seeing them 3-4 times this season and I just wasn’t impressed. I do agree the coaching can be a big factor.
 

msf22b

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That's just it @UcMiami most of them have no idea what good basketball looks like. Even worse, many of them believe that it maybe wrong for everyone else but THEY will make it right because THEY are so supremely talented. The programs you mention UCONN, ND, MsSt and a few others are the exceptions. For the vast majority of the other programs fundamentals, knowledge of the game & effort are negotiable items.

Actually Coco, one can find good BB fundamentals up and down the breadth of the country...and not only in the tops teams Effective switching defenses, offenses that highlight a team's strengths; the Geno effect is going great guns. He lobbied for better coaching and he's got it.
Surely not everyone, but the sprouts are visible.

Which leads us back to poor UTenn...I disagree with Nan on this one (rare). Hard to believe how little players improved and how disappointing their professional careers were...Do you think a 14/15 year old doesn't notice that. Poor Bashaara Graves for example; such a fine, talented kid...withered away.

I don't understand how they get the class of kids they do.

Holly (in her public pronouncements) seems to emphasize unfocused brute effort, something she understands rather than skills and/or technique...which she doesn't. At times her pressing D is effective...but it's not based on sound fundamentals once the team breaks into the offensive zone, wide open lanes to the basket appear.

And let's not forget, this team is chuck full of MacD All-Americans.
Their haphazard play must be enormously frustrating to them.

There are lots of folks who would love the chance to turn that program around...We'll know in the next few days whether the admin has been pushed far enough in that direction.
 
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Carnac

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Well, HW made it to the NCAAs so she should still be around next year right?!:rolleyes:

Yes, she’s got a date with the most vilified program in their history next season, UConn. After more than a decade of not playing them, they’re finally back on the schedule. If she only wins one game next year, it has to be that one. To resume the series with a loss would only stoke the rage and disappointment in her and the program that LV fans already have. :mad:
 
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Yes, she’s got a date with the most vilified program in their history next season, UConn. After more than a decade of not playing them, they’re finally back on the schedule. If she only wins one game next year, it has to be that one. To resume the series with a loss would only stoke the rage and disappointment in her and the program that LV fans already have. :mad:

Well she isn't going to win that game... if she is still there as coach.... Tennessee has to think long term.... because if they do not get a teacher and a coach worthy and demanding of respect, neither of which they have had under Holly... then they will slip into irrelevancy... they are almost there now.....

It is just a hot mess down there..... what would Tenn be if it did not have the history of Pat Summit.... and how much do they still matter.... i do not know.... Holly's first season as HC she had the "Grind for 9" slogan.. but ever since then you have not heard anyone from Tennessee speak or hint at the prospect of another National Championship.....

I was just thinking today..... TN owes a big card of thanks to Candace Parker.... for single-handedly bringing them their last 2 championships.... Pat was out of her prime as coach.... still stressing defense and rebounding in an era when WCBB was in the midst of change and varying offensive schemes.... it had been a decade since their last title.... and Candace brought them 2.... now it has been another decade.... with watered down schedule and precious few signature wins.....

Also thinking today of the many coaches who could make a difference down there.... the fan boards all want Becky Hammon, or Jeff Walz, or Kara Lawson... people who would not go there for that gig.... but the Quinnipiac coach and any number of good coaches i saw today would be an improvement over Holly.....

Oh Holly.... complains all the time about her team "quick shooting" but lets it happen.... complains about her team's lack of effort.... but lets it happen.... (why not give those who do not show pride in their play or indifference a long seat on the bench?) complains about too many turnovers but doesn't work on correcting it..... now she is ready to go back to the fundamentals this coming summer and seek a fresh start for the program.... kinda what she should have been doing each and every season for the entire length of her tenure....
 

HuskyNan

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Well - these high recruit kids seem to eat and breath basketball and unlike 10 years ago, you can watch your favorite team's games on-line or on TV pretty consistently. They spend a lot of time on the recruiting process and have lots of advisers and trainers in their corner. They should have a pretty good idea about how the game should be played and when it looks 'right' and when it looks wrong. You watch ND or MsSt or Louisville play and it looks right almost every time, watch TN over the last decade and it hasn't.

So yeah, I think these 16 and 17 year olds should be able to see a little more than just the sign "Tennessee Invented the Game of Women's Basketball".
I’ve sat at AAU tournaments and listened to kids trying to remember which team won the championship last year. I’m mother of two smart guys. Kids can be remarkably clueless

Anyway when these players were recruited, 3-6 years ago, Tennessee was actually winning things. The decline was rapid. Westbrook is a sophomore so she signed her LOI in Nov 2016, seven months after the LVs went to the Elite Eight. At that point, Warlick had won three SEC championships (either regular season or tournament), been to the Sweet Sixteen and three Elite Eights. That’s impressive

Man, can we be a pompous bunch sometimes
 
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oldude

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What is the rule on that signed LOI?
The NCAA considered and implemented a number of transfer rule changes in the past few years. I know they considered a rule that would allow players to transfer and become immediately eligible if the HC was fired or resigned. I’m not certain if that rule was implemented or not, but typically, if a HC is fired, schools allow kids to withdraw their commitment.
 

MainefanSC

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Kids are kids. Parents and coaches have the influence to "steer" them in a direction they maybe should be headed. Some kids have their minds made up, if recruited by a program they have rooted for or are infatuated with. Then, there is little opportunity to persuade them elsewhere. I find it very difficult to blame these players for their situation. If they are unhappy, they have the transfer card they can play. We (UConn) have seen our kids play that card because the program isn't what they thought it was. So, I have no words of wisdom for these players. They have options. For me, I think HW is a fine coach for UT and should be given another raise/extension.:cool::mad:
 

DefenseBB

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Zero fundamentals before and after arriving on campus. That talent is overrated by the gurus with Westbrook topping the list.
Whoa there! That’s not entirely true. Fundamentals can mean different things to different people. I was at the game yesterday and let me review with this forum what I saw:
For warmups-UCLA was first out by about 8-10 min. They did some team short sprints with quick stops. Broke into 2 groups, 1 shooting, the other group of 5 did a 2 ball short passing drill, quick and efficient, forcing the women to quickly catch/pass anticipating the next ball. The groups switched and then They then did a nice little bounce pass layup drill before the normal layup and shooting.
TN came out during the end of the second passing group drill and did their layup line and shoot around. Their shooting and form were very good.
The game started with Westbrook being called for using her left arm to clear out the defender while dribbling. She got called another time for exactly the same infraction and didn’t get called any ot the other times she did it. At one point during the 1st Qtr was 7-1 in turnovers committed, just sloppy play and This is poor coaching.
The other noticeable item was Westbrook’s and Davis’s attitude-too much edge and angst but the passion was there only misdirected. Clearly Davis and Westbrook have skills but not in a cohesive offensive plan as Tennessee did not have one. Collins actually impressed me in the first have with her movement and shooting, again more her effort than in a team component.
When TN made their run in the 3rd Qtr, Westbrook and KK worked the high low very well and were heavily aided by poor offensive sets by UCLA (poor spacing/ill advised passes) and poor shot selection. Cori Close also waited too long to take a time out during this run.
Overall, the balance of scoring was heavily skewed in UCLA’s favor and is more evidence that Cori’s team is coached pretty well. Her in game management could improve but during timeouts, she was more engaged with the team than Holly was.

My impression was not a lack of effort by Tennessee but a lack of team structure to be effective. All traits we have bespoken for the last 4 years about Holly.

My take on Evina’s comments were she was pressed by that reporter after she said no comment and was led into saying something. Should she have said it, of course not, but it does show someone who cares.

On Holly, I actually agree she deserved the right to coach after Pat had to step down. Her first 3 years were pretty good but the last 4 have clearly proved she’s not a leader who can command respect nor shows any strong basketball teaching skills as evidenced by too many turnovers, too few assists and too many fouls.
Eegads, yesterday’s game had 43 fouls by both teams virtually all of which were correct. Fouls on defense show poor footwork and team communication, again a lack of coaching.
The long of it is, Tennessee is not well coached and needs to make a change.
Holly, however is correct that she loves the game, loves UT, loves the program and loves these young ladies. None of which qualify her to continue to coach this team.

Most fans at the game felt it was time for a change with only one I spoke with who was adamant that Holly had to go (not sure why he was there).

Just my humble impressions of what I saw.
 

vtcwbuff

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I won’t disagree with you on this as you see them more than I. My observations are based on seeing them 3-4 times this season and I just wasn’t impressed. I do agree the coaching can be a big factor.

I watched Walker a lot last year and I wasn't impressed. Look at her now and you see what good coaching can do.
 

CocoHusky

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What is the rule on that signed LOI?
TN has the option to release her from a signed letter of intent. "Usually" SOP when a coaching change is involved. Last time I remember this happening was with Kate Cain who originally signed with Delaware. When Tina Martin resigned at Delaware, Cain was released from her NLI and has had a very productive career as rebounder shot blocker at Nebraska. If TN does not release her then things might get messy and no telling what will happen after that.
 
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Yes, she’s got a date with the most vilified program in their history next season, UConn. After more than a decade of not playing them, they’re finally back on the schedule. If she only wins one game next year, it has to be that one. To resume the series with a loss would only stoke the rage and disappointment in her and the program that LV fans already have. :mad:
Actually Vols fans are so desperate, some of them have even suggested that Tenn look at Shea as their next coAch.
 

msf22b

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Well she isn't going to win that game... if she is still there as coach.... Tennessee has to think long term.... because if they do not get a teacher and a coach worthy and demanding of respect, neither of which they have had under Holly... then they will slip into irrelevancy... they are almost there now.....

It is just a hot mess down there..... what would Tenn be if it did not have the history of Pat Summit.... and how much do they still matter.... i do not know.... Holly's first season as HC she had the "Grind for 9" slogan.. but ever since then you have not heard anyone from Tennessee speak or hint at the prospect of another National Championship.....

I was just thinking today..... TN owes a big card of thanks to Candace Parker.... for single-handedly bringing them their last 2 championships

Also thinking today of the many coaches who could make a difference down there.... the fan boards all want Becky Hammon, or Jeff Walz, or Kara Lawson...

Oh Holly.... complains all the time about her team "quick shooting" but lets it happen.... complains about her team's lack of effort.... but lets it happen.... ...

Good piece Bay...
Especially liked the tribute to Candace...now seen in perspective, certainly correct.
And your initial thought about teacher and coach worthy of respect...spot on.
But I don't completely agree with regard your list of super coaches.
Sure, let's forget Waltz...He has no reason to go anywhere.

But for Kara and/or Becky..it might be a smart career move.
Is Becky...sooo wedded to the men's side? I would certainly ask

In Kara's case there is the loyalty argument..."Please take all this wonderful talent and make something of it.

i remember almost (not quite) poaching a world-class conductor for a group I directed...found the soft underbelly of his ambition and played it like a violin.

I certainly wouldn't give up on those two; either would perfect...It would be fun having another major rivalry develop (or redevelop).

You could even let Holly hang around as an assistant (or something).
I truly believe she would be grateful and supportive when the inevitable turnaround occurs.

OT: to my own thoughts...One of the most gifted and competitive players on the UTenn side hardly got in the game and was totally uninvolved in its outcome. too bad, because she might have made a difference.
“She has a chip on her shoulder,” Assistant Coach Bridgette Gordon said. “You talk about tough and gritty? That is Rae Burrell.
Holly speaks about the qualities she requires...Duh, it's sitting right next to her on the bench.

Has a similar background to a certain young woman we fondly recall...
Nevada?...High Jumper? give me a break.
OF course to understand the breadth of Gabby's feat...As a 15-year old, she jumped 6' 1.5"....Rae was Nevada champ in her senior year with a mark of 5' 6"
Geno would know what to do with her.
 
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oldude

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I have to give Westbrook a pass on her postgame comments. Some folks rated her as the top HS player in the country, ahead of Megan, when she came to TN. She is still young, and immediately following a frustrating game, after a frustrating season, several reporters stuck microphones in front of her asking difficult questions that she answered.

As for HW, she’s an adult, who’s been at this job for enough years to know better. I continue to be baffled by her post game comments. Once again she tossed her team under the bus citing her typical refrain after a loss, that her team needs to, “play harder.”

The only thing that was different about this postgame presser is that the media directly asked HW about her future in Knoxville. She responded with a lengthy ramble about how much she loved the university, the administration and her job there. She then went into a long diatribe about how TN values women. If she had a daughter she would send her to TN even if she didn’t play basketball, etc. I actually thought it was sad in a way, as she appeared to be saying, “Don’t fire me because I’m a woman.”
 
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oldude

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Actually Vols fans are so desperate, some of them have even suggested that Tenn look at Shea as their next coAch.
Shea would be a great HC at TN. My hope is that she stays right where she is for the time being.
 
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You, know half of this thread sounds like it is just "ragging" on Tennessee. Be careful. It sounds almost like "glee" when you are speaking about the current condition of Tenneessee and it's players. What if Geno leaves and the new UConn coach turns this program into a second class program? What goes around comes around.
 

oldude

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You, know half of this thread sounds like it is just "ragging" on Tennessee. Be careful. It sounds almost like "glee" when you are speaking about the current condition of Tenneessee and it's players. What if Geno leaves and the new UConn coach turns this program into a second class program? What goes around comes around.
TN has inherent advantages that UConn can only dream about. They play in one of the top P5 conferences in the country. As a result, they have the financial resources to maintain excellence through any coaching change. Obviously, they have a great history in WBB and a dedicated, although frustrated fan base. The LV’s continue to pull in top 5 recruiting classes year after year.

If you can guarantee Geno’s successor those program attributes, assuming you hire someone with a reasonable understanding of how to develop talent and team basketball strategy, they can be successful at UConn.

The difficulty after Geno hangs up his coaching whistle will be both financial in a state that is billions of dollars in the red, as well as continuing to attract top caliber recruits once you’ve lost the best coach in the history of WBB, while playing in a 2nd tier conference.
 

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