OT: Hats off to Tom Brady

[ZenConn]

Love Rogers and his ability but Brady is a better overall player.

I think Rodgers has been blessed with a great supporting cast around him while Brady hasn't had that luxury. This inflates Rogers numbers a bit.

Rodgers has thrown to Jennings, Jordy and now Devante. Other than Gronk, Brady really hasn't had the caliber of receivers like Rodgers has. This year, he makes it to the SB finally with someone to throw it to in Evans, Godwin and Antonio at the end of the season.

As for Saturday's game, I think people are over hyping the 3 INTS. The first interception was legit - throwing into double coverage on a 2nd and 11. The second INT, I think Evans should have gone deeper in his route and should have caught the ball. I think that was on the receiver. On the 3rd int, every receiver was covered on a 3rd and 2. He had to let that one go and ended up on the Packers 23 yard line. No harm on that one. I saw that as a glorified punt and touch back.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

I'm not sure I'd count this one if you're making a "Rogers has the best statistics" argument:

 

[Improviser]

I'm not sure I'd count this one if you're making a "Rogers has the best statistics" argument:

We know Brady is a great come from behind quarterback already. So then, if this stat is correct, it is another arrow in Brady's quiver.

Not to enter his name into this conversation, but Eli Manning was also a great come from behind quarterback. I am sure there are, and were, many others.

It is hard to believe though, given Rogers' prowess.

 

[superjohn]

Love Rogers and his ability but Brady is a better overall player.

I think Rodgers has been blessed with a great supporting cast around him while Brady hasn't had that luxury. This inflates Rogers numbers a bit.

Rodgers has thrown to Jennings, Jordy and now Devante. Other than Gronk, Brady really hasn't had the caliber of receivers like Rodgers has. This year, he makes it to the SB finally with someone to throw it to in Evans, Godwin and Antonio at the end of the season.

As for Saturday's game, I think people are over hyping the 3 INTS. The first interception was legit - throwing into double coverage on a 2nd and 11. The second INT, I think Evans should have gone deeper in his route and should have caught the ball. I think that was on the receiver. On the 3rd int, every receiver was covered on a 3rd and 2. He had to let that one go and ended up on the Packers 23 yard line. No harm on that one. I saw that as a glorified punt and touch back.

You've gotta be kidding me, Rodgers was stuck with Mike McCarthy who is one of the worst head coaches with the worst coaching tree of anyone who has head coached that long. Rodgers got 2 good seasons out of Driver, 3 out of Jennings, Jordy Nelson for 7 years, and Davante Adams now. Rodgers never had much of anything at tight end. Brady had the best tight end ever for 10 seasons, he had Troy Brown for 3 years, Hernandez for 3 years, Welker for 6 years, Edelman for 6 years, the second best receiver of all-time for 3 years...At a minimum Brady had 2 Hall of famers to throw to, Rodgers had none. Out of those top targets to throw to for Brady it's a combined 7 first team all-pro seasons and 2 second team all pro seasons. For top targets for Rodgers to throw to it's 1 combined first team all-pro season.

Biggest difference in terms of winning is Brady had the best coaching of all-time and some of the best defenses in the league over his 20 years, Rodgers had bad coaching and mediocre to horrible defenses.

 

[Umami Zen]

You've gotta be kidding me, Rodgers was stuck with Mike McCarthy who is one of the worst head coaches with the worst coaching tree of anyone who has head coached that long. Rodgers got 2 good seasons out of Driver, 3 out of Jennings, Jordy Nelson for 7 years, and Davante Adams now. Rodgers never had much of anything at tight end. Brady had the best tight end ever for 10 seasons, he had Troy Brown for 3 years, Hernandez for 3 years, Welker for 6 years, Edelman for 6 years, the second best receiver of all-time for 3 years...At a minimum Brady had 2 Hall of famers to throw to, Rodgers had none. Out of those top targets to throw to for Brady it's a combined 7 first team all-pro seasons and 2 second team all pro seasons. For top targets for Rodgers to throw to it's 1 combined first team all-pro season.

Biggest difference in terms of winning is Brady had the best coaching of all-time and some of the best defenses in the league over his 20 years, Rodgers had bad coaching and mediocre to horrible defenses.

What it is SJ

 

[Lefty2one]

Biggest difference in terms of winning is Brady had the best coaching of all-time and some of the best defenses in the league over his 20 years, Rodgers had bad coaching and mediocre to horrible defenses.

Yeah, I feel like some people ignore this or put very little weight on it. In 8 of 9 SB trips the Patriots had a Top 8 defense. Eight out of his 20 seasons he had a Top 5 defense. He had a coach and a defense who shut down two historically great Rams offenses, nearly 20 years apart. Defenses that almost always gave Peyton Manning fits. Not to mention Brady had an outstanding OL for most of his career, even though he always got the ball out quickly. In the middle of their quasi-dynastic run they went 11-5 with Matt Cassell under center.

Brady is great, sure he's the GOAT, but he's just like Montana to me. They played in insanely great situations. Supporting casts, great coaches, great defenses. Even after leaving New England, Brady went to a team with arguably the second-best group of weapons in the league and one of the best offensive minds out there. I'm not convinced that Brady is actually better than someone like Rodgers or Dan Marino if you flipped their situations but he's obviously the most accomplished QB ever.

 

[Chin Diesel]

You've gotta be kidding me, Rodgers was stuck with Mike McCarthy who is one of the worst head coaches with the worst coaching tree of anyone who has head coached that long. Rodgers got 2 good seasons out of Driver, 3 out of Jennings, Jordy Nelson for 7 years, and Davante Adams now. Rodgers never had much of anything at tight end. Brady had the best tight end ever for 10 seasons, he had Troy Brown for 3 years, Hernandez for 3 years, Welker for 6 years, Edelman for 6 years, the second best receiver of all-time for 3 years...At a minimum Brady had 2 Hall of famers to throw to, Rodgers had none. Out of those top targets to throw to for Brady it's a combined 7 first team all-pro seasons and 2 second team all pro seasons. For top targets for Rodgers to throw to it's 1 combined first team all-pro season.

Biggest difference in terms of winning is Brady had the best coaching of all-time and some of the best defenses in the league over his 20 years, Rodgers had bad coaching and mediocre to horrible defenses.

Well, if there is any truth to rumors Rodgers may be starting for the Pats next year, things will get a bit more interesting.

 

[storrsroars]

Brady is great, sure he's the GOAT, but he's just like Montana to me. They played in insanely great situations. Supporting casts, great coaches, great defenses. Even after leaving New England, Brady went to a team with arguably the second-best group of weapons in the league and one of the best offensive minds out there. I'm not convinced that Brady is actually better than someone like Rodgers or Dan Marino if you flipped their situations but he's obviously the most accomplished QB ever.

Let's get Marino out of the equation, please. Marino cost the Panthers a 2nd NC due to his selfishness and behavior. There's a reason, actually multiple reasons, why he dropped on the draft board. Pitt insiders know a ton that's been buried. Marino was very talented skill-wise, but not a leader of men.

Someone dissed Penny earlier in the thread. I wish we'd had a chance to see what Chad could've done w/o the arm injuries. For me, one of the smartest QBs I've seen. That he got some very mediocre Jets teams and an awful Fins team into the postseason with a rag arm doesn't get enough respect. Not saying he belongs in the conversation as durability is huge when measuring QBs, but he could've been special and oftentimes was when he did suit up.

 

[Umami Zen]

Well, if there is any truth to rumors Rodgers may be starting for the Pats next year, things will get a bit more interesting.

Think La Fleur lost AR and his FAs(Free Agents) at fourth and goal .Gotta have confidence in your HOF QB

 

[87Xfer]

Love Rogers and his ability but Brady is a better overall player.

I think Rodgers has been blessed with a great supporting cast around him while Brady hasn't had that luxury. This inflates Rogers numbers a bit.

Rodgers has thrown to Jennings, Jordy and now Devante. Other than Gronk, Brady really hasn't had the caliber of receivers like Rodgers has. This year, he makes it to the SB finally with someone to throw it to in Evans, Godwin and Antonio at the end of the season.

As for Saturday's game, I think people are over hyping the 3 INTS. The first interception was legit - throwing into double coverage on a 2nd and 11. The second INT, I think Evans should have gone deeper in his route and should have caught the ball. I think that was on the receiver. On the 3rd int, every receiver was covered on a 3rd and 2. He had to let that one go and ended up on the Packers 23 yard line. No harm on that one. I saw that as a glorified punt and touch back.

Huh? Maybe true in the recent past, but Brady has had some pretty damn good targets in his career, including the Welker, Amendola, Edelman trio. Moss didn't suck either. But I agree with your broader point.

 

[superjohn]

Yeah, I feel like some people ignore this or put very little weight on it. In 8 of 9 SB trips the Patriots had a Top 8 defense. Eight out of his 20 seasons he had a Top 5 defense. He had a coach and a defense who shut down two historically great Rams offenses, nearly 20 years apart. Defenses that almost always gave Peyton Manning fits. Not to mention Brady had an outstanding OL for most of his career, even though he always got the ball out quickly. In the middle of their quasi-dynastic run they went 11-5 with Matt Cassell under center.

Brady is great, sure he's the GOAT, but he's just like Montana to me. They played in insanely great situations. Supporting casts, great coaches, great defenses. Even after leaving New England, Brady went to a team with arguably the second-best group of weapons in the league and one of the best offensive minds out there. I'm not convinced that Brady is actually better than someone like Rodgers or Dan Marino if you flipped their situations but he's obviously the most accomplished QB ever.

Thank you. That's all I've been trying to say, some fans try and make it out like it's all Brady and even denigrate everyone who was around him in the process. He's an amazing QB and has obviously had the most success but he's also been the most fortunate.

 

[upstater]

Biggest difference in terms of winning is Brady had the best coaching of all-time and some of the best defenses in the league over his 20 years, Rodgers had bad coaching and mediocre to horrible defenses.

Very early on they had great defenses. And then they had great offenses, some of the best in NFL history, and sucky defenses. But in several Super Bowls, the defenses were sieve-like, and Brady was whipping the ball around.

Super Bowls where Brady basically won the game: 2003, 2014, 2016
Super Bowls where the defense won the game: 2001, 2018
Super Bowl win that was evenly balanced: 2004

Super Bowl losses where Brady lost the game: 2007
Super Bowl losses where Brady played pretty well but the D was very unclutch: 2011
Super Bowl losses where Brady played out of his mind but the defense was horrendous: 2017.

 

[Hoophound]

Rodgers would be crazy to go to the Pats. Talk about setting yourself up for ridicule, failure and unfair comparisons.

 

[Lefty2one]

Let's get Marino out of the equation, please. Marino cost the Panthers a 2nd NC due to his selfishness and behavior. There's a reason, actually multiple reasons, why he dropped on the draft board. Pitt insiders know a ton that's been buried. Marino was very talented skill-wise, but not a leader of men.

Marino's college career is irrelevant. I'm not surprised that a college kid was immature. Tom Brady repeatedly struggled to win the starting job at Michigan. No one cares.

Marino was arguably the most talented QB ever to play the game and he never had a great team around him, that's the point. When he had great WRs he had no defense or running game. When he had a solid running game his receivers were poor. When they finally put a good defense around him it was after his Achilles tear and their offense was mediocre. If you plop prime Dan Marino on the Patriots to start the aughts, how many Super Bowls do you think they win?

As a long time Jets fan, Marino and Brady gave you the exact same feeling of dread in the 4th quarter of a close game.

 

[storrsroars]

If you plop prime Dan Marino on the Patriots to start the aughts, how many Super Bowls do you think they win?

None. Marino would've never gotten on the same page as Belichick. And he would've been a huge cap problem.

 

[superjohn]

None. Marino would've never gotten on the same page as Belichick. And he would've been a huge cap problem.

Did he steal your girlfriend in college?

 

[alphasigko]

I hate him, but I have to give credit where credit is due....It hurts me to admit that he is probably the GOAT QB.

 

[storrsroars]

Did he steal your girlfriend in college?

Well, since I was in CT and graduated UConn the year before Marino came to Pitt, no, that would've been impossible. However, the woman I married a couple of decades later was dating a starting Pitt O lineman when Marino came on board. I've heard the Marino stories from first hand witnesses.

So, since you asked such an impertinent question of me, I'll return volley: Did he give you a chubby?

 

[Hans Sprungfeld]

Another stat, Rodgers is an all-time top 10 running QB 3,271 yards in 190 games Brady 1,043 in 299 games.

Very narrow discussion, compared to most of what's been discussed here, but it speaks to overall skills and big game crunch time performance...

I think Rodgers saw a possibility but wisely chose against running for the end zone on 2nd down, and then unwisely chose against it on 3rd down, when the view was clearer toward the end zone.

Running would have been a touchdown, or improved position for the 4th down choice that's gotten more discussion here and elsewhere.

I think he flinched.

What do you think his chances would have been for the 3rd down running TD?

 

[jayteeman]

Very narrow discussion, compared to most of what's been discussed here, but it speaks to overall skills and big game crunch time performance...

I think Rodgers saw a possibility but wisely chose against running for the end zone on 2nd down, and then unwisely chose against it on 3rd down, when the view was clearer toward the end zone.

Running would have been a touchdown, or improved position for the 4th down choice that's gotten more discussion here and elsewhere.

I think he flinched.

What do you think his chances would have been for the 3rd down running TD?

Depends on the view but a clear quick decision of running I think he gets it.
Indecision and the pass make it look like he may have been stopped.
Everyone questioned Aaron Rodgers' decision against running on a crucial late incompletion

 

[upstater]

Huh? Maybe true in the recent past, but Brady has had some pretty damn good targets in his career, including the Welker, Amendola, Edelman trio. Moss didn't suck either. But I agree with your broader point.

While don't agree with the idea that Rodgers had a great set of receivers his career (implying they made him), Brady only had Moss for one year. The other guys you mentioned were excellent slot WRs, and really Amendola is not considered a great WR. Brady sometimes had years in which players like Reche Caldwell and Jabar Gaffney were his best WRs.

 

[upstater]

Yeah, I feel like some people ignore this or put very little weight on it. In 8 of 9 SB trips the Patriots had a Top 8 defense. Eight out of his 20 seasons he had a Top 5 defense. He had a coach and a defense who shut down two historically great Rams offenses, nearly 20 years apart. Defenses that almost always gave Peyton Manning fits. Not to mention Brady had an outstanding OL for most of his career, even though he always got the ball out quickly. In the middle of their quasi-dynastic run they went 11-5 with Matt Cassell under center.

Brady is great, sure he's the GOAT, but he's just like Montana to me. They played in insanely great situations. Supporting casts, great coaches, great defenses. Even after leaving New England, Brady went to a team with arguably the second-best group of weapons in the league and one of the best offensive minds out there. I'm not convinced that Brady is actually better than someone like Rodgers or Dan Marino if you flipped their situations but he's obviously the most accomplished QB ever.

So much of this is just wrong.

1. The defenses were great in the first 4 years but the defense just broke open like a sieve against Jake Delhomme in 2003. Then the defenses were pretty bad in the 2009 through 2013 years when the Patriots had their best offense (I say best because they put up a historic amount of points). The defenses during their second Super Bowl run were mostly just OK (no great shakes against Seattle, Atlanta, etc. and absolutely horrible against Philadelphia). They had a great defense against the Rams.

2. Outstanding OL? How did they build this outstanding OL? 7th round draft picks and free agents cut by other teams. UDFAs? You had players no one wanted like Hochstein, Andruzzi, Compton, heck Stephen Neal didn't even play college football! So many of these guys. The Patriots hardly spent any draft capital on OL, and they never brought in top FAs. It amazes me that so many of these guys came to New England, were plug and play, and they suddenly became very good OL in front of Brady. A guy who knew how to move in the pocket and got the ball out fast, making OL look great. So many examples year after year. UConn's own Donald Thomas was looking for work when the Patriots picked him up. Next thing you know he signs a big contract to leave New England and is never heard from again. Look at the Giants Nate Solder. Exposed. Look at Trent Brown, talented but considered a bust, signed with New England for nothing. Then goes on and cashes in big, but isn't really doing much. And the best example of all: when Brady signed with Tampa this year, so many articles were written in the Tampa papers about how Brady was going to get crushed behind that porous OL. Look at Jameis Winston's sack totals. They are very high. But instead this OL has improved massively in front of Brady. They are very talented and highly drafted, but compared to the sacks given up early, they are doing pretty well now, with the exception of LT Donovan Smith, who is not very good.

3. The reason why New England went 11-5 and DIDN'T make the playoffs with Matt Cassel is because they didn't deal any of those 11 losses to teams they were actually competing against for playoff spots. There was a huge dropoff in games lost from the prior year when they didn't lose any, a year in which they had a very touch schedule against 8 playoff teams. Finally, and this doesn't seem to be said much, Cassel didn't even have a career year in New England. When he went to KC, not only did he take the Chiefs to the playoffs, but he had more TDs thrown, more yards, higher passing %, and he even made the Pro Bowl.

Amazes me that Brady has done so much with so little talent around him other than Gronk and yet he doesn't get the credit. Not to mention the fact that Gronk has been injured in 3 of those Super Bowls.

 

[8893]

Amazes me that Brady has done so much with so little talent around him other than Gronk and yet he doesn't get the credit. Not to mention the fact that Gronk has been injured in 3 of those Super Bowls.

The dude gets a ton of credit, here and elsewhere, from 99% of people.

You being you, you will die on a hill fighting the 1%.

 

[upstater]

The dude gets a ton of credit, here and elsewhere, from 99% of people.

You being you, you will die on a hill fighting the 1%.

Have you even read this thread?

 

[8893]

Have you even read this thread?

Yes.

 

[upstater]

Yes.

So, there are 6 posters I was responding to.

 

[upstater]

I'd add I was pretty consistent in previous threads from last season (yes, I searched them) that stated Brady wasn't washed, that he could still make the throws, and that it wasn't his receiving crew from last year that caused the offense to flounder. Instead, it was having Marshall Newhouse as his LT and 4 injured OL that caused him to purposely throw the ball in the dirt repeatedly. His receivers last year were OK (heck, Julian caught 100 balls and had broken ribs!). Brady has proven he still has his fastball.

The threads from a year ago are still around, and it's pretty funny to see the really bad predictions from so many people (Brady would get killed behind Tampa's OL, Brady is going for the $$ in Tampa because they'll have a losing season, BB will find a QB that fits his system and will have as much success as he did with Brady, etc.) Pretty hilarious.

 

[8893]

So, there are 6 posters I was responding to.

I'd add I was pretty consistent in previous threads from last season (yes, I searched them) that stated Brady wasn't washed, that he could still make the throws, and that it wasn't his receiving crew from last year that caused the offense to flounder. Instead, it was having Marshall Newhouse as his LT and 4 injured OL that caused him to purposely throw the ball in the dirt repeatedly. His receivers last year were OK (heck, Julian caught 100 balls and had broken ribs!). Brady has proven he still has his fastball.

The threads from a year ago are still around, and it's pretty funny to see the really bad predictions from so many people (Brady would get killed behind Tampa's OL, Brady is going for the $$ in Tampa because they'll have a losing season, BB will find a QB that fits his system and will have as much success as he did with Brady, etc.) Pretty hilarious.

My point is that you will fight until there are none.

You arguing that Brady doesn't get enough respect is like Dickie V. arguing that Duke doesn't get enough respect. But I don't expect either one of you to stop doing it as long as you are alive.

 

[mauconnfan]

My point is that you will fight until there are none.

You arguing that Brady doesn't get enough respect is like Dickie V. arguing that Duke doesn't get enough respect. But I don't expect either one of you to stop doing it as long as you are alive.

Billy B should get just as much respect for his coaching if Brady was able to be the GOAT without ever having a receiver worthy to play in the NFL I guess huh? lol

 

[superjohn]

While don't agree with the idea that Rodgers had a great set of receivers his career (implying they made him), Brady only had Moss for one year. The other guys you mentioned were excellent slot WRs, and really Amendola is not considered a great WR. Brady sometimes had years in which players like Reche Caldwell and Jabar Gaffney were his best WRs.

Brady had Moss for over 2 years. Moss caught 39 regular season TD's from Brady in their 36 regular season games together.