Geno doesn't see same women's game Candice Wiggins complains about | Page 3 | The Boneyard

Geno doesn't see same women's game Candice Wiggins complains about

mdakota said:
No worries, I knew it was a joke, but I wanted to make a point, and you hit the nail on the head with your last sentence.
Expand ...

Thanks for the thoughtful dialogue. And you never made me feel harassed. I didn't want you to worry about that as you were trying to go to sleep tonight. :)
 
Lobo50Fan said:
I do agree it was a little unnecessary to say she wasn't a good basketball player. Her WNBA career wasn't as sparkly as her Stanford career, but she was a strong role player and injuries do have a tendency to take a toll and slow one down. She focused then on her defense and took pride in the fact that she could annoy those she was defending and that she was one of the most hated in the league for her defense, her own words. That alone is something that could rub many the wrong way, as some here have stated.

I do like that Geno wanted to know how she was bullied. I remember watching an interview Sue Wicks did about when Becky Hammon was in training camp trying to make the team and how everyone was fighting for their spot, knocking everyone down, beating them up, and doing all they could to earn that position. I'm not suggesting I know anything about what happened, no one but Candice does, but this type of physicality is normal in the WNBA. Being knocked to the ground is not uncommon.

It is understandable to be on both sides and to see both sides and most of the players and coaches that have spoken up have taken that position. While they themselves haven't seen, heard, or experienced the type of treatment Candice claims to have gone through, they aren't saying she's a liar or that she's wrong (most of them aren't anyway). What many have a problem with, aside from her lack of facts and proof other than her word, is her gross generalization of a community that makes up a large part of the league and the fanbase. It gives critics validation in their claims that the league is filled with predatory lesbians...and a lot of them.

Something else I have a problem with is the fact that she mentioned she felt isolated and was bullied because she is proud to be a woman and is feminine in a league where players want to look and act like men. It reeks of "don't hate me because I'm beautiful and popular." More generalization of a community on her part and a league that has critics talking about masculine and manly women playing in it.

While allegations of bullying are serious and should be taken seriously, there were better ways she could've gone about it and with better timing, preferably when she doesn't have a book coming out. It also makes it hard to believe when there is nothing in the way of proof being presented. I have been riding the fence on this since the story first broke out hoping that some type of investigation is done, and fixing any situation deemed toxic as she has mentioned while on the other side of the fence thinking this is a publicity stunt for her book and for attention.

As a member of the gay community myself, I can't say I found myself offended by her statements regarding the percentage even though it was an insane number and used mainly as an illustration of how isolated she felt. What I didn't appreciate was basically calling the players in the league men and saying it was on it's last leg, even after being on a bit of an upswing the last couple seasons. There are problems, sure. They don't make nearly enough, there's no argument there. The timing of it and the fact that she has yet to present any type of proof is what I have the hardest time with. Not saying nothing happened, but it's hard to take anyone's word for it just because they claim it happened.

"There's nothing masculine about being competitive. There's nothing masculine about trying to be the best at everything you do, nor is there anything wrong with it. I don't know why a female athlete has to defend her femininity just because she chooses to play sports."
- Rebecca Lobo
Expand ...

Great, well written post.
 
bballnut90 said:
I don't expect exempt status for Wiggins, but it doesn't change the fact that Geno made some pretty disparaging and classless remarks about Wiggins. Not that a whole lot of class has been exhibited by Wiggins in this situation...but I don't think you'd ever see other top level coaches make remarks similar to the ones Geno made. Can you imagine the uproar on this board if Muffett or Kim Mulkey make comments like this about a Connecticut player?
Expand ...
Well he DID quote Tara from her own trashing of Candice. Although I guess Tara only criticized her math skills, and not her basketball skills. :cool:
 
bballnut90 said:
I don't expect exempt status for Wiggins, but it doesn't change the fact that Geno made some pretty disparaging and classless remarks about Wiggins. Not that a whole lot of class has been exhibited by Wiggins in this situation...but I don't think you'd ever see other top level coaches make remarks similar to the ones Geno made. Can you imagine the uproar on this board if Muffett or Kim Mulkey make comments like this about a Connecticut player?
Expand ...
He wasn't discussing a college player. He was discussing a WNBA retiree. You view his comments as disparaging and classless, I view them as brutally honest.
 
j66kicker said:
Well he DID quote Tara from her own trashing of Candice. Although I guess Tara only criticized her math skills, and not her basketball skills. :cool:
Expand ...

I signed back on just so I could like this post! Tara's response surprised me a little bit. She's very frank and very honest, but she usually stays out of things like this. Does that count as a Tara-ism?
 
.-.
Plebe said:
That was such a quintessential Tara one-liner, I cracked up. Btw Tara also said that Candice's comment sounded "negative and homophobic" to her.
Expand ...

And I agree with that. I think that casting that shadow over the entire league is tasteless. That does not mean that I write off her account that she was bullied as false, but I also don't like the women of the WNBA being trashed. I have great respect for these players and I know that they are professionals who only benefit from the success of the league. However, I have seen gay people harassed for being gay, so I can only assume that it could go both ways, and if it does, that it is a possibility that it can happen anywhere, even in the WNBA.
 
easttexastrash said:
Just odd to see a college coach making such comments about a WNBA matter. Now, if a WNBA coach comes out and comments I am more likely to listen. Can you imagine Coach K discussing NBA matters just because he has a connection to the NBA players through his national team experience and some of the NBA players being former players?
Expand ...

Well, Gary Kloppenburg, who coached Candice for 2 years in the league, has said that (paraphrasing) he has no idea what Candice is talking about. He was very tactful in his remarks, and even complimented Candice, but he also retweeted Kayte Christensen's less tactful takedown.
 
Plebe said:
Well, Gary Kloppenburg, who coached Candice for 2 years in the league, has said that (paraphrasing) he has no idea what Candice is talking about.
Expand ...

Right, and many people who know someone who commits a crime often say "I would never have thought he/she would do something like this." What we see as observers can often be very different from reality.
 
Plebe said:
Well, Gary Kloppenburg, who coached Candice for 2 years in the league, has said that (paraphrasing) he has no idea what Candice is talking about. He was very tactful in his remarks, and even complimented Candice, but he also retweeted Kayte Christensen's less tactful takedown.
Expand ...

I guess we all try to protect our paychecks.
 
.-.
easttexastrash said:
Right, and many people who know someone who commits a crime often say "I would never have thought he/she would do something like this." What we see as observers can often be very different from reality.
Expand ...

So when a coach speaks up you are more likely to listen, but it doesn't mean much when they do. Okay.
 
Plebe said:
So when a coach speaks up you are more likely to listen, but it doesn't mean much when they do. Okay.
Expand ...

I said that I thought it was a great message from him. BUT, just because he didn't see it doesn't mean that it didn't happen. I know well enough to know that things happen that others don't see. At no point did he say he didn't "buy it" as Geno said. He said he never saw it and most likely he didn't.
 
easttexastrash said:
Tara's comment was humorous. I wonder if she will call Candice to discuss this.
Expand ...
That particular comment was humorous, but with a biting edge. And Tara had some other not-so-humorous things to say.

Would it be possible for ONE of us to buy Candice's book, then take turns quoting key passages (if any), with particulars and names named, on the Boneyard? That way she wouldn't benefit financially from us and we could still see if she has anything tangible to say on the whole mess.
 
Last comment because this is futile. NOBODY other than Wiggins knows what she experienced while in the WNBA. I don't know if it happened or if this is fabricated. But what I do know is that if someone claims to have been a victim of something I don't pass judgement on it until it is proven to be true or false. If something happens to you and others say that they didn't it, does it make it any less real to you?
 
j66kicker said:
That particular comment was humorous, but with a biting edge. And Tara had some other not-so-humorous things to say.

Would it be possible for ONE of us to buy Candice's book, then take turns quoting key passages (if any), with particulars and names named, on the Boneyard? That way she wouldn't benefit financially from us and we could still see if she has anything tangible to say on the whole mess.
Expand ...

That leaves out mdakota. I read somewhere that he can't read or write.
 
Something that stood out with Klop's tweets was that he mentioned she was a well respected teammate. While he may not be totally privy to what goes on between players, someone who coached a player alleging a toxic environment in the league would've seen something or noticed something.
If I were going through the same thing, I would try talking to someone like a coach or assistant coach. Not all of her coaches have spoken up, to my knowledge only Klop has, but she had to have said something to someone. This couldn't have blind-sided every single person in the league.
She did mention it included coaches and leaders in the league, but I can't imagine the coaching staffs on four teams (and if they changed while she was with a particular team, I'm not knowledgeable on that fact) were all against her too.
Again, not saying I believe her or don't believe her. It just seems like, unless they aren't allowed to for some reason, there would be someone to stand up and substantiate her claims by now.
 
.-.
easttexastrash said:
Last comment because this is futile. NOBODY other than Wiggins knows what she experienced while in the WNBA. I don't know if it happened or if this is fabricated. But what I do know is that if someone claims to have been a victim of something I don't pass judgement on it until it is proven to be true or false. If something happens to you and others say that they didn't it, does it make it any less real to you?
Expand ...

I wouldn't say futile. I've enjoyed the exchange and I respect your position. Ultimately, what's most important is how the players, coaches, leadership, and fans rally in response to this controversy to continue building a league based on inclusion and respect.
 
Lobo50Fan said:
Something that stood out with Klop's tweets was that he mentioned she was a well respected teammate. While he may not be totally privy to what goes on between players, someone who coached a player alleging a toxic environment in the league would've seen something or noticed something.
If I were going through the same thing, I would try talking to someone like a coach or assistant coach. Not all of her coaches have spoken up, to my knowledge only Klop has, but she had to have said something to someone. This couldn't have blind-sided every single person in the league.
She did mention it included coaches and leaders in the league, but I can't imagine the coaching staffs on four teams (and if they changed while she was with a particular team, I'm not knowledgeable on that fact) were all against her too.
Again, not saying I believe her or don't believe her. It just seems like, unless they aren't allowed to for some reason, there would be someone to stand up and substantiate her claims by now.
Expand ...

Lobo50Fan, you are way to logical for this thread. :)
 
Plebe said:
I wouldn't say futile. I've enjoyed the exchange and I respect your position. Ultimately, what's most important is how the players, coaches, leadership, and fans rally in response to this controversy to continue building a league based on inclusion and respect.
Expand ...

I agree. And if there is any truth to this then dealing with it and not sweeping it under the rug is a great place to start. This is a perfect time to discuss bullying of all types and for all involved to take away that NO bullying is tolerated and how to detect the warning signs and how to deal with it if you are a victim or if you see someone else being bullied.
 
So, if a WNBA coach challenges Ms. Wiggins, his credibility is suspect because he is obviously seeking to protect his paycheck. On the other hand, we are apparently not permitted to challenge Ms. Wiggins' credibility even though her accusations are in the context of seeking publicity for her autobiography. Furthermore, attempting to impose on critics the obligation of proving a negative (that the actions described by Ms. Wiggins did not occur) turns the concept of burden of proof on its head. Ms. Wiggins has made personally offensive attacks that are overtly homophobic. She has the burden of proving or justifying her allegations. And, she simply has not done so.
 
I love Geno to death but two wrongs have never equated to a right
there was no need to address her being good enough to warrant physical play all that did was add to her case because if she really wasn't good enough then they had no valid reason to push her around :)

and lastly he suggested she should have just taken the high road, cant really say he took his own advise here but as we know Geno has a colorful way of getting his views across

In continuing with the theme here I give Geno a ninety eight % grade on his response and Candice a two% in her mis characterization of the sexuality of players in the league :cool:
 
Last edited:
easttexastrash said:
I'm not sure how Geno is qualified to comment on Wiggins' experience in the WNBA.
Expand ...
easttexastrash said:
I respect Geno as a great coach and a great basketball mind, but I don't feel that this is a particular situation the he should be involving himself in.
Expand ...
You don't like what Geno says, so he should shut up? Who do you think you are, saying he isn't qualified to speak or shouldn't be speaking on a topic?
 
.-.
VAMike23 said:
Candice has always been sort of a diva.

You see it in her attitude, her sense of style, the way she carries herself, her interviews--it's consistent. She ramps up her femininity and her personality and puts it right out there in a very forward way. Always has.

Now, obviously I haven't been there or been privy to anything she's talking about. But I can certainly imagine other players giving her a hard time, not so much for being straight per se but for being the way she is. It was said by more than one teammate that you love having her on your team but she is annoying as hell as an opponent. She's just a diva- type personality.

Until now I still liked CW, partly from being a Lynx fan. Not that this episode makes me hate her, not at all, but I can see how she would rub people the wrong way, and for her to throw much of the league under the bus like this just seems really suspect.
Expand ...
I have no way of knowing for sure, but as this story unfolded, I've had a theory based on all the teams I've been associated with over many years as a player, coach & fan.

While there is always some good natured "ball-busting" that goes on, some players end up being the target of more than their fair share, usually for one of two reasons. They are either thin-skinned and don't handle it well, or they are perceived to be "a**h***s" by the majority of their teammates.

I have no way of knowing if Wiggins fits either categorization, and even if she did, that would not justify bullying her, but her inaccurate and unjustified comments painting the entire league as a bunch of mean-spirited, sexually aggressive lesbians gives us all a window into exactly what type of person Candice Wiggins may be.
 
Sluconn Husky said:
Didn't care for some of his comments either. This in particular strikes me as a no-no if directed at certain groups of people.

"You would think if someone is unhappy with something, walk away and take the high road," Auriemma said. "What is to be gained by your comments other than you want to hurt people?
Expand ...


This is meant for you and ETT. Geno straddles, as he does sometime, all sides. But hear here. One of my first post to the Boneyard a couple years ago handled on players who dominant for the most of their college career, but were less and less in the WNBA. I focused specifically on 2 Stanford players-- Candice being one. As to her claims. For me, harassment (of all kinds) has no time frame. And it takes place on individual and/or group bodies. But when those claims are called into question, it is downright silly and unproductive to offer the following incitement-- it is her/his experience, so you cannot set question marks around it. This would reduced all experiences to some form of radical individualism where everything that can be said is equal to everything else. No, we have ways of verifying claims and ways of rendering our claims verifiable. Candice is not dumb-- she has, from the newspaper article cited here-- walk back the 98% claim to where it is now-- a way of speaking (But the effects have already played their tricks and she is now the 'Talk of the Town'. I think Geno's talk about forms of 'intimidation' is very interesting. But also his talk about being in touch with other players, coaches, etc. Information gets around. Because she takes her experience so seriously, she should have specified in her piece a lot more detailing thn she has. I read her pieces and felt it was raw meat thrown to hurry people who are looking for confirmation of this or that We should not have to wait for her book to get the 'facts'. Perhaps the editor took her in a direction that she is unaccustomed. Those who have worked with editors know that the marketing begins long before the last puntum is placed. For those of us who are busy freeing ourselves from the traffic in 'reverse discrimination, the only point worthy of pursuing is that of harassment. By defining herslef as a sort of lone feminine against a (98%) majority (gay culture) she has (inadvertantly- perhaps) reproduced the very structure she is screeming against. Perhaps, it wa better when it was US (hetero) against them (all those not identifing as feminine = gay).
 
I think it is totally fair for Geno and others to say that they believe Ms. Wiggins is exaggerating or lying, just as it is fair for people to say they accept her story as true. No one has to accept someone's story just because they say it. Particularly when the story is devoid of specifics. Particularly when the story is replete with exaggerations and gay baiting tropes (suggesting that gay women are not women and that they hate heterosexuals who are feminine). When you tell your story to the world (by talking to the press) you are inviting comments, challenges and counter-narratives. Some will be informed and some will just be said.

When someone doubts the story they should set out their reasons for doing so (just as Ms. Wiggins should have set out some clear and specific examples instead of talking about her experience with exaggeration and broad statements). Geno set out the experiences that form the basis for his opinions. One may doubt whether his experiences qualify him to make the assertions that he did but he certainly has the right and some basis for his comments.

I am waiting for her former teammates to speak. I would love to hear from her former coaches and team executives. Unfortunately, the instinct for many will be to try to stay clear of the flying debris.
 
easttexastrash said:
I'm not sure how Geno is qualified to comment on Wiggins' experience in the WNBA.
Expand ...
I believe 12 years coaching USA Basketball, including the last 8 as HC, interacting with and coaching dozens of WNBA players, including Wiggins, give him just a bit of perspective.....
 
Plebe said:
Geno dismantles the Wiggins allegations, like only Geno can.

Geno Doesn't See Same Women's Game Candice Wiggins Complains About

"When you say bullying, do you mean you were bullied on the basketball court in the style of play that was used against you?" Auriemma said. "Do you mean like what happens to some really, really good players, players like Breanna Stewart, Diana Taurasi, Katie Lou Samuelson, where people are trying to physically intimidate you, physically beat you up? Because you're one if the best players in the country and they feel that's the only way they can get an advantage on you? Is that what you mean by bullying? Because guess what, I don't think you were ever a good enough player to be bullied that way from what I remember and what I saw.

"You're not a point guard by nature, and you're not a good enough shooter. I'm speaking as someone who watched and from what I heard from coaches in the league. If you mean in the true sense of trying to beat you up like the Denver Broncos did two years ago to Tom Brady and 'we have a chance.' If that's what you mean, OK. I still don't buy it, but OK.

"But if you mean you were bullied because of your sexual orientation or because of who you were or who you didn't want to be, whatever, maybe they just didn't like you. I don't know. To label the entire league at 98 percent, I thought Tara VanDerveer had a great line, "I don't know that math was ever Candice's strength.' I'd hate to be like Candice and indict the entire athletic department at Stanford by saying how do you let somebody like that into your school? That would be just as bad as what she did to the WNBA."​
Expand ...
Wow.
 
.-.
@easttexastrash I have to sharply disagree on most aspects of what you are saying:
Geno does not have to walk in Candice's WNBA pumps to form an opinion any more than Tara, you or me.
You mention Anita Hill and fail to mention that Clarence Thomas is still a sitting US supreme Court Justice largely because much of Anita Hill's accusations could not be corroborated. The vast majority of WNBA players are alive and well enough to say if they had a similar experience to Candice-none have so far!
The WNBA should definitely NOT launch an investigation of her allegations because Candice is no longer part of the WNBA. This scorched earth policy that Candice has embarked on singes the WNBA worst of all.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Forum statistics

Threads
168,336
Messages
4,565,483
Members
10,467
Latest member
Eil Rule


Top Bottom