Geno doesn't see same women's game Candice Wiggins complains about

[easttexastrash]

That particular comment was humorous, but with a biting edge. And Tara had some other not-so-humorous things to say.

Would it be possible for ONE of us to buy Candice's book, then take turns quoting key passages (if any), with particulars and names named, on the Boneyard? That way she wouldn't benefit financially from us and we could still see if she has anything tangible to say on the whole mess.

That leaves out mdakota. I read somewhere that he can't read or write.

 

[Lobo50Fan]

Something that stood out with Klop's tweets was that he mentioned she was a well respected teammate. While he may not be totally privy to what goes on between players, someone who coached a player alleging a toxic environment in the league would've seen something or noticed something.
If I were going through the same thing, I would try talking to someone like a coach or assistant coach. Not all of her coaches have spoken up, to my knowledge only Klop has, but she had to have said something to someone. This couldn't have blind-sided every single person in the league.
She did mention it included coaches and leaders in the league, but I can't imagine the coaching staffs on four teams (and if they changed while she was with a particular team, I'm not knowledgeable on that fact) were all against her too.
Again, not saying I believe her or don't believe her. It just seems like, unless they aren't allowed to for some reason, there would be someone to stand up and substantiate her claims by now.

 

[Plebe]

Last comment because this is futile. NOBODY other than Wiggins knows what she experienced while in the WNBA. I don't know if it happened or if this is fabricated. But what I do know is that if someone claims to have been a victim of something I don't pass judgement on it until it is proven to be true or false. If something happens to you and others say that they didn't it, does it make it any less real to you?

I wouldn't say futile. I've enjoyed the exchange and I respect your position. Ultimately, what's most important is how the players, coaches, leadership, and fans rally in response to this controversy to continue building a league based on inclusion and respect.

 

[easttexastrash]

Something that stood out with Klop's tweets was that he mentioned she was a well respected teammate. While he may not be totally privy to what goes on between players, someone who coached a player alleging a toxic environment in the league would've seen something or noticed something.
If I were going through the same thing, I would try talking to someone like a coach or assistant coach. Not all of her coaches have spoken up, to my knowledge only Klop has, but she had to have said something to someone. This couldn't have blind-sided every single person in the league.
She did mention it included coaches and leaders in the league, but I can't imagine the coaching staffs on four teams (and if they changed while she was with a particular team, I'm not knowledgeable on that fact) were all against her too.
Again, not saying I believe her or don't believe her. It just seems like, unless they aren't allowed to for some reason, there would be someone to stand up and substantiate her claims by now.

Lobo50Fan, you are way to logical for this thread.

 

[easttexastrash]

I wouldn't say futile. I've enjoyed the exchange and I respect your position. Ultimately, what's most important is how the players, coaches, leadership, and fans rally in response to this controversy to continue building a league based on inclusion and respect.

I agree. And if there is any truth to this then dealing with it and not sweeping it under the rug is a great place to start. This is a perfect time to discuss bullying of all types and for all involved to take away that NO bullying is tolerated and how to detect the warning signs and how to deal with it if you are a victim or if you see someone else being bullied.

 

[Buckaroobanzai]

So, if a WNBA coach challenges Ms. Wiggins, his credibility is suspect because he is obviously seeking to protect his paycheck. On the other hand, we are apparently not permitted to challenge Ms. Wiggins' credibility even though her accusations are in the context of seeking publicity for her autobiography. Furthermore, attempting to impose on critics the obligation of proving a negative (that the actions described by Ms. Wiggins did not occur) turns the concept of burden of proof on its head. Ms. Wiggins has made personally offensive attacks that are overtly homophobic. She has the burden of proving or justifying her allegations. And, she simply has not done so.

 

[Bajan Best]

I love Geno to death but two wrongs have never equated to a right
there was no need to address her being good enough to warrant physical play all that did was add to her case because if she really wasn't good enough then they had no valid reason to push her around

and lastly he suggested she should have just taken the high road, cant really say he took his own advise here but as we know Geno has a colorful way of getting his views across

In continuing with the theme here I give Geno a ninety eight % grade on his response and Candice a two% in her mis characterization of the sexuality of players in the league

 

[HuskyNan]

I'm not sure how Geno is qualified to comment on Wiggins' experience in the WNBA.

I respect Geno as a great coach and a great basketball mind, but I don't feel that this is a particular situation the he should be involving himself in.

You don't like what Geno says, so he should shut up? Who do you think you are, saying he isn't qualified to speak or shouldn't be speaking on a topic?

 

[oldude]

Candice has always been sort of a diva.

You see it in her attitude, her sense of style, the way she carries herself, her interviews--it's consistent. She ramps up her femininity and her personality and puts it right out there in a very forward way. Always has.

Now, obviously I haven't been there or been privy to anything she's talking about. But I can certainly imagine other players giving her a hard time, not so much for being straight per se but for being the way she is. It was said by more than one teammate that you love having her on your team but she is annoying as hell as an opponent. She's just a diva- type personality.

Until now I still liked CW, partly from being a Lynx fan. Not that this episode makes me hate her, not at all, but I can see how she would rub people the wrong way, and for her to throw much of the league under the bus like this just seems really suspect.

I have no way of knowing for sure, but as this story unfolded, I've had a theory based on all the teams I've been associated with over many years as a player, coach & fan.

While there is always some good natured "ball-busting" that goes on, some players end up being the target of more than their fair share, usually for one of two reasons. They are either thin-skinned and don't handle it well, or they are perceived to be "a**h***s" by the majority of their teammates.

I have no way of knowing if Wiggins fits either categorization, and even if she did, that would not justify bullying her, but her inaccurate and unjustified comments painting the entire league as a bunch of mean-spirited, sexually aggressive lesbians gives us all a window into exactly what type of person Candice Wiggins may be.

 

[hjoerring]

Didn't care for some of his comments either. This in particular strikes me as a no-no if directed at certain groups of people.

"You would think if someone is unhappy with something, walk away and take the high road," Auriemma said. "What is to be gained by your comments other than you want to hurt people?

This is meant for you and ETT. Geno straddles, as he does sometime, all sides. But hear here. One of my first post to the Boneyard a couple years ago handled on players who dominant for the most of their college career, but were less and less in the WNBA. I focused specifically on 2 Stanford players-- Candice being one. As to her claims. For me, harassment (of all kinds) has no time frame. And it takes place on individual and/or group bodies. But when those claims are called into question, it is downright silly and unproductive to offer the following incitement-- it is her/his experience, so you cannot set question marks around it. This would reduced all experiences to some form of radical individualism where everything that can be said is equal to everything else. No, we have ways of verifying claims and ways of rendering our claims verifiable. Candice is not dumb-- she has, from the newspaper article cited here-- walk back the 98% claim to where it is now-- a way of speaking (But the effects have already played their tricks and she is now the 'Talk of the Town'. I think Geno's talk about forms of 'intimidation' is very interesting. But also his talk about being in touch with other players, coaches, etc. Information gets around. Because she takes her experience so seriously, she should have specified in her piece a lot more detailing thn she has. I read her pieces and felt it was raw meat thrown to hurry people who are looking for confirmation of this or that We should not have to wait for her book to get the 'facts'. Perhaps the editor took her in a direction that she is unaccustomed. Those who have worked with editors know that the marketing begins long before the last puntum is placed. For those of us who are busy freeing ourselves from the traffic in 'reverse discrimination, the only point worthy of pursuing is that of harassment. By defining herslef as a sort of lone feminine against a (98%) majority (gay culture) she has (inadvertantly- perhaps) reproduced the very structure she is screeming against. Perhaps, it wa better when it was US (hetero) against them (all those not identifing as feminine = gay).

 

[JudgeSCR]

I think it is totally fair for Geno and others to say that they believe Ms. Wiggins is exaggerating or lying, just as it is fair for people to say they accept her story as true. No one has to accept someone's story just because they say it. Particularly when the story is devoid of specifics. Particularly when the story is replete with exaggerations and gay baiting tropes (suggesting that gay women are not women and that they hate heterosexuals who are feminine). When you tell your story to the world (by talking to the press) you are inviting comments, challenges and counter-narratives. Some will be informed and some will just be said.

When someone doubts the story they should set out their reasons for doing so (just as Ms. Wiggins should have set out some clear and specific examples instead of talking about her experience with exaggeration and broad statements). Geno set out the experiences that form the basis for his opinions. One may doubt whether his experiences qualify him to make the assertions that he did but he certainly has the right and some basis for his comments.

I am waiting for her former teammates to speak. I would love to hear from her former coaches and team executives. Unfortunately, the instinct for many will be to try to stay clear of the flying debris.

 

[iamcbs]

I'm not sure how Geno is qualified to comment on Wiggins' experience in the WNBA.

I believe 12 years coaching USA Basketball, including the last 8 as HC, interacting with and coaching dozens of WNBA players, including Wiggins, give him just a bit of perspective.....

 

[warbler1055]

I am kind of happy that Coach Geno spoke up against other HCs whose silence is deafening!!! Nit pick all you want, but he spoke on a difficult subject and spoke well!!! He is earned that right and he is using it!!!!

 

[CL82]

Geno dismantles the Wiggins allegations, like only Geno can.

Geno Doesn't See Same Women's Game Candice Wiggins Complains About

"When you say bullying, do you mean you were bullied on the basketball court in the style of play that was used against you?" Auriemma said. "Do you mean like what happens to some really, really good players, players like Breanna Stewart, Diana Taurasi, Katie Lou Samuelson, where people are trying to physically intimidate you, physically beat you up? Because you're one if the best players in the country and they feel that's the only way they can get an advantage on you? Is that what you mean by bullying? Because guess what, I don't think you were ever a good enough player to be bullied that way from what I remember and what I saw.

"You're not a point guard by nature, and you're not a good enough shooter. I'm speaking as someone who watched and from what I heard from coaches in the league. If you mean in the true sense of trying to beat you up like the Denver Broncos did two years ago to Tom Brady and 'we have a chance.' If that's what you mean, OK. I still don't buy it, but OK.

"But if you mean you were bullied because of your sexual orientation or because of who you were or who you didn't want to be, whatever, maybe they just didn't like you. I don't know. To label the entire league at 98 percent, I thought Tara VanDerveer had a great line, "I don't know that math was ever Candice's strength.' I'd hate to be like Candice and indict the entire athletic department at Stanford by saying how do you let somebody like that into your school? That would be just as bad as what she did to the WNBA."​

Wow.

 

[CocoHusky]

@easttexastrash I have to sharply disagree on most aspects of what you are saying:
Geno does not have to walk in Candice's WNBA pumps to form an opinion any more than Tara, you or me.
You mention Anita Hill and fail to mention that Clarence Thomas is still a sitting US supreme Court Justice largely because much of Anita Hill's accusations could not be corroborated. The vast majority of WNBA players are alive and well enough to say if they had a similar experience to Candice-none have so far!
The WNBA should definitely NOT launch an investigation of her allegations because Candice is no longer part of the WNBA. This scorched earth policy that Candice has embarked on singes the WNBA worst of all.

 

[baggerbob]

She didn't say that EVERY player harassed her, but said that it was pervasive. If this happened to her she has a right to tell her story, just like any other victim, whether it damages the league or not.

When you go out, and call 98% of the league Gay, you lose all credibility about your statements. That subject didn't even need to be brought up, she could have made her point in other ways.

 

[Jeff H]

UConn currently has 15 former players on active 2016 WNBA rosters - among the most of any program nationally.

Personally I think Geno was sticking up for of his former players and I appreciate that he would do so.

 

[MuchoDogYears]

All Wiggins had to do was give specific examples that illustrated her argument. She didn't, so what she said ends up being nothing more than unsubstantiated opinion.

Is she right or wrong? Until her, or someone else, gives specific examples with names, dates, and places nothing of what she said holds any weight.

 

[UcMiami]

Just odd to see a college coach making such comments about a WNBA matter. Now, if a WNBA coach comes out and comments I am more likely to listen. Can you imagine Coach K discussing NBA matters just because he has a connection to the NBA players through his national team experience and some of the NBA players being former players?

He is also the USA Olympic coach and has spent a lot of time with a lot of WNBA players on and off the court, as well as keeping up with all the players who have moved to the WNBA from UConn.
Wiggins was a role player, she might have been much more than that had she not gotten injured, but her career was as a journeyman role player, for 4 different teams in 8 years. She was a star rookie, but that was one year.

The issue that we deal with in our society is one that is impossible to 'judge' and pretty impossible to codify in law as we have found out - bullying and harassment and 'hostile environment' in the workplace are impossible to define because they hinge on the perception of the 'victim' as much as on the actions or words of others. We can try to define 'reasonable' standards but judges and juries have had issue with those definitions. It really is difficult.

One thing that does stand out to me is that Wiggins is claiming this is a vast conspiracy that is league wide - she played on four teams with four different coaches and management structures and as far as I can tell she felt they were all equally hostile to her. That would be the equivalent of the Miami NFL player having experienced the same bullying on three other NFL teams over the course of eight years, and at that point he would have had a much harder time being believed and his own personality and phobias would have been questioned much more closely.

And while I don't want to suggest she shouldn't have played in the WNBA, if she was having this fabulous time overseas while being properly compensated I am surprised she didn't just take her summers off instead of working for peanuts. She was not a 'star' and her absence would not have created the publicity that DT sitting out a season did.

Because she mixes up her 'personal story' of bullying and harassment by 'the lesbians' with her whining about the state of the WNBA and denigrating the league as a the longest lived and most viable women's profession team sport league it all starts sounding like a whine. And that we have 20 years of the league and no one else has hinted at this vast conspiracy just makes it more difficult to give it much credence. Again with an individual team, maybe, We see it in college situations where coaches get fired, and I suspect some players who have left UConn, could have termed their reason as because their being 'bullied' while the coaches and other players would have said it was because they weren't down with the program and putting in the necessary effort. Again 'perception'.

 

[j66kicker]

Maybe they have the same PR firm

 

[Blueballer]

Just odd to see a college coach making such comments about a WNBA matter. Now, if a WNBA coach comes out and comments I am more likely to listen. Can you imagine Coach K discussing NBA matters just because he has a connection to the NBA players through his national team experience and some of the NBA players being former players?

Coach K probably WOULD make a comment if a similiar accusations were made by a former NBA player. However that's not likely to happen. As a men's coach who has many former players in the NBA and coaching USA basketball I would think he too has a lot of dialogue with NBA players. His opinion would be valuable.

 

[CL82]

Because neither he, nor any of his former players are named Candice Wiggins. I don't mind Geno saying that he has not heard of this type of harassment in the past and certainly he is free to speak to what he has heard, or in this case not heard, but to attack Candice Wiggins as he did and to basically call her a liar is where he crossed into an area that he is not qualified to address.

And, yes, I read the article.

Disagree. She condemned an entire industry with women he has coached and knows personally. He called out her BS in a way that only Geno can do.

Far easier to say nothing, but that's not Geno.

 

[mdakota]

Let's not forget... Wiggins also stated that nobody watches the WNBA. Well I watch the WNBA, so that makes me a nobody to Wiggins? She not only tried to throw the WNBA and the players under the bus, she also threw the fans (bunch of nobody's) under the bus... The bus must be as big as her ego.... lol

 

[Plebe]

Let's not forget... Wiggins also stated that nobody watches the WNBA. Well I watch the WNBA, so that makes me a nobody to Wiggins? She not only tried to throw the WNBA and the players under the bus, she also threw the fans (bunch of nobody's) under the bus... The bus must be as big as her ego.... lol

This glib use of absolutes like "it's not watched" is yet another troublesome layer in this multilayer crap cake.

Attendance: This season, for the first time since 2011, the W registered the highest attendance at 1,561,530 and average attendance at 7,655; from last year that is a 4.6% increase. The Chicago Sky and the Indiana Fever both lead the league in record-breaking numbers with franchise records for average attendance and single game crowd. ...

Viewership: The season opener between Minnesota and Phoenix, which was broadcasted on the ESPN network, delivered 505,000 viewers make that game the highest-rated, regular season game on that network. Also, the viewership on ESPN and ESPN2 increased 11% from 202,000 views last season to 224,000. Numbers don’t lie​

Apparently, those 1.5 million-plus spectators are all "nobodies" to Wiggins. And the more than half-million TV viewers of one single WNBA game also amount to "nobodies" in Candice's eyes. She complains she was disrespected in the league and says elsewhere that she only stayed as long as she did "for the fans"; but that is disrespect.

 

[j66kicker]

This glib use of absolutes like "it's not watched" is yet another troublesome layer in this multilayer crap cake.

Attendance: This season, for the first time since 2011, the W registered the highest attendance at 1,561,530 and average attendance at 7,655; from last year that is a 4.6% increase. The Chicago Sky and the Indiana Fever both lead the league in record-breaking numbers with franchise records for average attendance and single game crowd. ...

Viewership: The season opener between Minnesota and Phoenix, which was broadcasted on the ESPN network, delivered 505,000 viewers make that game the highest-rated, regular season game on that network. Also, the viewership on ESPN and ESPN2 increased 11% from 202,000 views last season to 224,000. Numbers don’t lie​

Apparently, those 1.5 million-plus spectators count are all "nobodies" to Wiggins. She complains she was disrespected in the league; but that is disrespect.

Again, the more than half-million TV viewers of one single WNBA game also amount to "nobodies" in Candice's eyes.

Although Candice put it in rude and unflattering terms, she does have a point about the league not being very popular. Yes, attendance was up 5% 2016 over 2015, but it is still down about 25% from its peak of over 10,000 per game a few years ago. Though they have a minimum-wage type salary cap, still half the teams lose money. The spartan team travel makes it a demotion from the college lifestyle if you're from a big time college program. And the best coaches stay at the NCAA level where they can make a lot more money.

There are probably a lot more constructive ways to address these issues than the approach Candice is taking, but let's not pretend everything is all good. The league has really taken a step backward, and is in trouble if they don't figure out how to get more people to like their game.