For the record, my dream scenario is that FSU takes its ball and heads to the Big 12

[Oracle9]

Book it!

 

[Zissou]

Not sure what you're referring to? Are you saying Nova didn't chase FBS football dreams?

They did not.

I don’t agree with it, but they did not.

 

[CTFAN4LIFE]

They did not.

I don’t agree with it, but they did not.

I think Villanova made the right choice for their situation of being a small, private school without obvious and super compelling reasons to go FBS. It has been and will continue to be very difficult (even more so with NIL and revenue sharing on the horizon) for small, non-state schools to make the move and have sustained success at the FBS level.

 

[Zissou]

I think Villanova made the right choice for their situation of being a small, private school without obvious and super compelling reasons to go FBS. It has been and will continue to be very difficult (even more so with NIL and revenue sharing on the horizon) for small, non-state schools to make the move and have sustained success at the FBS level.

If you look just in the ACC, the Eastern privates are Wake, Duke, Cuse, Miami, and BC.

Novas decisions on FBS go way back. Nova was a 1-A independent when Div 1 was split in 1978. I recently opened a thread on the history of the Big East and Eastern 8 in this period.

Nova’s last 1-A season was 1980. Nova beat BC, Cincy, and Temple at home that year and lost to Maryland and Navy on the road with a 6-5 season. A mediocre program at 1-A playing good regional programs. It was the Age of Eastern Independent Football.

Nova’s original decision wasn’t to move up from 1-AA, it was to quit 1-A football.

 

[uconndogs]

Villanova made the right decision at the time and it has proven to be the correct one as this has all unfolded. Small privates will not survive in this new era of college football.

 

[Zissou]

Villanova made the right decision at the time and it has proven to be the correct one as this has all unfolded. Small privates will not survive in this new era of college football.

We know how history turned out, but we can never be certain at what might have been.

IF the founding of the Big East could have been reconciled with JoPa’s Eastern Football vision, we may have ended up with a super conference that was more sustainable.

• The 10 football members: Syracuse, BC, Pitt, Nova, Holy Cross, Rutgers, Penn State, WV, UConn, UMass
• The 6 non-football members: Providence, St John’s, Georgetown, Seton Hall, Duquesne, GW

After the later Big East football was set in motion, IF Nova had moved up in football on first invite, maybe there would have been enough critical mass to survive later departures, the resulting Tulane and Tulsa addition rounds, and the eventual split.

The Eastern athletics alignments could have been very different. It’s not all on Nova’s shoulders, but they were one of eight that could have set a different course.

 

[uconndogs]

We know how history turned out, but we can never be certain at what might have been.

IF the founding of the Big East could have been reconciled with JoPa’s Eastern Football vision, we may have ended up with a super conference that was more sustainable.

• The 10 football members: Syracuse, BC, Pitt, Nova, Holy Cross, Rutgers, Penn State, WV, UConn, UMass
• The 6 non-football members: Providence, St John’s, Georgetown, Seton Hall, Duquesne, GW

After the later Big East football was set in motion, IF Nova had moved up in football on first invite, maybe there would have been enough critical mass to survive later departures, the resulting Tulane and Tulsa addition rounds, and the eventual split.

The Eastern athletics alignments could have been very different. It’s not all on Nova’s shoulders, but they were one of eight that could have set a different course.

I doubt even that scenario would have been sustainable in the current climate. This is a money grab of the first order with nothing in the way of cost control. There is no leadership to align the interests of financial gain, the student athlete and academics....to the extent academics is even remotely relevant anymore.

Top tier academic institutions like Vilanova will not be playing this game for very long - and that will evenutally include hoops. I would argue that those institutions in the power conferences will be in a similar spot soon as they realize they will not be able to compete and retain talent - BC, Vandy, etc. I'm not sure UCONN hangs in there with football and if they don't, then can they continue to compete at the highest level in hoops?

Ugly situation.....

 

[FfldCntyFan]

IF the founding of the Big East could have been reconciled with JoPa’s Eastern Football vision

One (then) insurmountable issue here was that a large part of Joe Pa's Eastern Football vision was that he wanted schools that were profitable men's basketball to fully share those profits with Penn St while allowing Penn St to retain every penny of profit they received from football.

Yes, over the long haul it would have benefited all of they had played along but at the time there was a far smaller gap in revenues between football and men's basketball. Schools like Syracuse, Pitt and West Virginia (solid football, reasonably good, very good in Cuse's case) had no benefit in agreeing to that, anyone else in the east would have seen little chance to make anything out of the football arrangement.

 

[Zissou]

I doubt even that scenario would have been sustainable in the current climate. This is a money grab of the first order with nothing in the way of cost control. There is no leadership to align the interests of financial gain, the student athlete and academics....to the extent academics is even remotely relevant anymore.

Top tier academic institutions like Vilanova will not be playing this game for very long - and that will evenutally include hoops. I would argue that those institutions in the power conferences will be in a similar spot soon as they realize they will not be able to compete and retain talent - BC, Vandy, etc. I'm not sure UCONN hangs in there with football and if they don't, then can they continue to compete at the highest level in hoops?

Ugly situation.....

I’m also cynical of the current landscape and the future.

From 1980 to current, however, we could have had a much better Eastern Football alignment, with TV money comparable at least to the B12 and ACC.

 

[CTFAN4LIFE]

If Penn State had joined the Big East, they would have been the first to leave for greener/Big10 pastures; before the waves of schools leaving for the ACC.

 

[Zissou]

If Penn State had joined the Big East, they would have been the first to leave for greener/Big10 pastures; before the waves of schools leaving for the ACC.

I’m not sure about that. Penn State may have been the anchor and leader for an Eastern Football. They would have raised up Pitt, Cuse, BC, and the rest. Miami, WV, and Temple would have also likely joined.

The entire dynamic would have been different. We can’t know the outcome with any certainty.

 

[CL82]

I’m not sure about that. Penn State may have been the anchor and leader for an Eastern Football. They would have raised up Pitt, Cuse, BC, and the rest. Miami, WV, and Temple would have also likely joined.

The entire dynamic would have been different. We can’t know the outcome with any certainty.

If Penn State is in the big east, then Pittsburgh never gets an invite.

 

[CTFAN4LIFE]

I’m not sure about that. Penn State may have been the anchor and leader for an Eastern Football. They would have raised up Pitt, Cuse, BC, and the rest. Miami, WV, and Temple would have also likely joined.

The entire dynamic would have been different. We can’t know the outcome with any certainty.

It's pure economics. If you are Penn State and you have the opportunity to go to the Big10 with its reserarch/AAU synergies and more valuable football properties, it's an absolute no-brainer.

 

[Zissou]

• The 10 football members: Syracuse, BC, Pitt, Nova, Holy Cross, Rutgers, Penn State, WV, UConn, UMass

Additional Independents at the time:

• Army
• Navy
• Miami
• FSU
• Cincinnati
• Ga Tech
• Notre Dame
• Louisville
• Va Tech

Of course there were more, but some of these could have been invited to a larger football conference in 1980.

 

[uconndogs]

If Penn State had joined the Big East, they would have been the first to leave for greener/Big10 pastures; before the waves of schools leaving for the ACC.

This is exactly right. Penn State cares about one thing and one thing only......playing football at the highest level. Think about what they swept under the carpet with Sandusky. To think that Penn State would do anything other than what they believe to be in their immediate best interest is wishful thinking at best.

 

[Zissou]

If Penn State is in the big east, then Pittsburgh never gets an invite.

Penn State and Pitt were both considered as basketball adds. If instead, a Big East - Eastern 8 merger with an incorporation of football were taken at the time, they both could have been founding members.

 

[Zissou]

This is exactly right. Penn State cares about one thing and one thing only......playing football at the highest level. Think about what they swept under the carpet with Sandusky. To think that Penn State would do anything other than what they believe to be in their immediate best interest is wishful thinking at best.

JoePa cared about Eastern Football. He couldn’t pull it together on his own.

Penn State cares about all of their sports. Wrestling is pretty good. So is volleyball.

 

[Zissou]

Pitt was the better basketball add, without considering a football conference.

 

[uconndogs]

JoePa cared about Eastern Football. He couldn’t pull it together on his own.

Penn State cares about all of their sports. Wrestling is pretty good. So is volleyball.

Football is a cult there. Troubling culture in my opinion.

 

[CL82]

Penn State and Pitt were both considered as basketball adds. If instead, a Big East - Eastern 8 merger with an incorporation of football were taken at the time, they both could have been founding members.

Pitt was added after Penn State was turned down. I believe they lost by a single vote, if I recall correctly.

 

[Zissou]

Pitt was added after Penn State was turned down. I believe they lost by a single vote, if I recall correctly.

I believe Pitt was confirmed in 1981 to join in 1982. Pitt was selected over Penn State. I think Penn State then asked to officially join in 1982 but was one vote short. All in the context of hoops.

What was missing was the vision to incorporate football from the start and merge the Eastern 8 with the Big East startup.

 

[CL82]

I believe Pitt was confirmed in 1981 to join in 1982. Pitt was selected over Penn State. I think Penn State then asked to officially join in 1982 but was one vote short. All in the context of hoops.

What was missing was the vision to incorporate football from the start and merge the Eastern 8 with the Big East startup.

Both Penn State and Pitt came up for a vote in 1982. I believe the Pitt vote was after the Penn State vote.

 

[Zissou]

“Penn State and Pitt were both considered as basketball adds. If instead, a Big East - Eastern 8 merger with an incorporation of football were taken at the time, they both could have been founding members”

 

[Zissou]

I posted a NYT article from 1981, on Pitt joining the Big East and ending the JoePa effort for Eastern Football.

I properly cited the source and author. It looks like the BY removed the post. Maybe it violated the rules.

Here is a link

Pitt to Join Big East, Shuns New League (Published 1981)

www.nytimes.com

 

[Zissou]

“The move is likely to end the chances of forming an Eastern major-college football conference proposed by Joe Paterno, Penn State's coach and athletic director. He has been trying for months to create such a league, with the idea of including Pittsburgh, now the nation's top-ranked team.”