For the record, my dream scenario is that FSU takes its ball and heads to the Big 12 | Page 6 | The Boneyard

For the record, my dream scenario is that FSU takes its ball and heads to the Big 12

FfldCntyFan

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“Penn State and Pitt were both considered as basketball adds. If instead, a Big East - Eastern 8 merger with an incorporation of football were taken at the time, they both could have been founding members”
There's a small problem with the logic you are using. The Big East, when initially formed was a conference for men's basketball only. The conference did not add other sports (track & field, baseball, soccer, etc) until the NCAA told them they had to in order to remain a valid conference. There never was any consideration of the conference being an all sports conference when it began and as the bulk of the membership did not participate in football at that level (PC, St John's, Seton Hall and at the time they joined. Villanova, not at all) the idea of making a move to strengthen the football future would have made zero sense.

When football was initially added, the football affiliation was allowed to use the Big East name but for the first few years was explicitly not part of the Bif Est conference, merely a football affiliation that included *then) four members of the Big East (Syracuse, BC, Pitt, Miami). It wasn't until 1995 (with quite a bit of pressure from the football membership) that it was fully incorporated in the Big East and the non football membership resisted football influence as much as they possibly could.
 

TKs

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Pitt was added after Penn State was turned down. I believe they lost by a single vote, if I recall correctly.
I believe it was Pitt that was the deciding vote that kept Penn St out of the Big East.
 
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There's a small problem with the logic you are using. The Big East, when initially formed was a conference for men's basketball only. The conference did not add other sports (track & field, baseball, soccer, etc) until the NCAA told them they had to in order to remain a valid conference. There never was any consideration of the conference being an all sports conference when it began and as the bulk of the membership did not participate in football at that level (PC, St John's, Seton Hall and at the time they joined. Villanova, not at all) the idea of making a move to strengthen the football future would have made zero sense.

When football was initially added, the football affiliation was allowed to use the Big East name but for the first few years was explicitly not part of the Bif Est conference, merely a football affiliation that included *then) four members of the Big East (Syracuse, BC, Pitt, Miami). It wasn't until 1995 (with quite a bit of pressure from the football membership) that it was fully incorporated in the Big East and the non football membership resisted football influence as much as they possibly could.
I don’t think the Big East was basketball only.

Track and Field and xcountry are big at Nova, and I believe we competed in the Big East on Joining.

Two movements were in play at the Big East forming. A basketball centric new conference that would compete with the Eastern 8, and a movement for Indy football programs to form a Football conference.

We know how it turned out.

It could have been different if the JoePa vision and they Gavitt vision could have been combined instead of being competing.
 

FfldCntyFan

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I don’t think the Big East was basketball only.

Track and Field and xcountry are big at Nova, and I believe we competed in the Big East on Joining.

Two movements were in play at the Big East forming. A basketball centric new conference that would compete with the Eastern 8, and a movement for Indy football programs to form a Football conference.

We know how it turned out.

It could have been different if the JoePa vision and they Gavitt vision could have been combined instead of being competing.
You may want to double check where your track and field program was parked for Nova's first year in the BE. I'm pretty confident it was year three of the BE (Nova's second year) that it was more than merely a men's basketball conference.

There is no way that a then eight member conference (including Nova even though they were a delayed entry) where exactly half of the conference (Nova, St John's, PC, SH) did not field a football team and exactly half of those that did (UConn, G'Town), did so on a reduced level would consider forming a football conference.

Watch 'Requiem for the Big East'. It will provide quite a bit of insight on how the non football members felt about adding football to the conference. Also, look at the breakaway in 2013. The schools that moved on to what is basically the current BE wanted nothing to do with football.
 
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You may want to double check where your track and field program was parked for Nova's first year in the BE. I'm pretty confident it was year three of the BE (Nova's second year) that it was more than merely a men's basketball conference.

There is no way that a then eight member conference (including Nova even though they were a delayed entry) where exactly half of the conference (Nova, St John's, PC, SH) did not field a football team and exactly half of those that did (UConn, G'Town), did so on a reduced level would consider forming a football conference.

Watch 'Requiem for the Big East'. It will provide quite a bit of insight on how the non football members felt about adding football to the conference. Also, look at the breakaway in 2013. The schools that moved on to what is basically the current BE wanted nothing to do with football.
I have watched Requiem a number of times. Some of it is good, but it’s also famously flawed. You may not know UConn was significant to the Big East from watching.


Track:
“Since 1980, the championships have only been held outside of New York State five times: (2013 - Geneva, Ohio; 2011, 2007, 2006 – Akron, Ohio). From 1980-2005, Syracuse, N.Y. was the consistent host of the league’s indoor championships”

The Big East had more than Hoops by the time it actually was underway. It’s true that it was conceived for hoops.
 
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X-C:
“Since making their debut at the BIG EAST Championships in 1980, the Wildcats have had a total of 90 All-BIG EAST honorees.”
 

CL82

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I believe it was Pitt that was the deciding vote that kept Penn St out of the Big East.
Don't think so. Pitt was a reactionary addition after Penn State didn't get the votes.
 
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We know how history turned out, but we can never be certain at what might have been.

IF the founding of the Big East could have been reconciled with JoPa’s Eastern Football vision, we may have ended up with a super conference that was more sustainable.

  • T

I believe it was Pitt that was the deciding vote that kept Penn St out of the Big East.
Pittsburgh wasn't in the 3 schools were Villanova, St Johns, and Georgetown who said no.
 
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Me reading the last two pages.
Bill Hader Popcorn GIF by Saturday Night Live
 
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I believe it was Pitt that was the deciding vote that kept Penn St out of the Big East.
This is not accurate
Don't think so. Pitt was a reactionary addition after Penn State didn't get the votes.
This is correct. Pitt was the follow up to Penn State not getting the votes.

At least if you believe the account from Jake Crouthamel (former Syracuse AD)... I know Paterno has provided some alternative perspective with respect to the attempted formation of the Eastern Football Conference
THE CREATION
In the Spring of 1978, only a few months after my arrival in Syracuse, Dave Gavitt, Jack Kaiser and Frank Rienzo, Athletics Directors at Providence, St. Johns and Georgetown respectively, gathered to discuss newly imposed NCAA men's basketball in-season scheduling requirements. These requirements forced independent institutions like the four of us to align and schedule schools with whom we had no interest or tradition. Self determination was far better than being told who your partners would be, and so the four of us met for countless hours in countless sessions to determine the make-up of our new conference to be. We considered the quality of men's basketball programs in the northeast, regional representation, significant media markets, etc. Boston College was invited over Holy Cross, UMass and Boston University. Connecticut was then added. Rutgers was extended an invitation but declined because it was aligned in the Atlantic 8 (now the Atlantic 10) along with Penn State. Rutgers didn't feel comfortable disassociating itself with Penn State. Seton Hall took Rutgers spot. Villanova was also in the Atlantic 8, but it joined up a year later over Temple and St. Josephs. Thus, in the first year of operation, 1979-80, we had seven active members which increased to eight in 1980-81.

After only two years of existence as a conference formed specifically for men's basketball, football became an issue. Joe Paterno, head football coach and then Director of Athletics at Penn State, had been trying to put together an all-sports conference of the eastern Division IA independent schools. They included Syracuse, Boston College, Pittsburgh, Rutgers, West Virginia and Temple. While our football fortunes would be well served through such an alignment, it would have been a step backward for men's basketball. To enter into such an alignment Syracuse and Boston College would have had to leave the BIG EAST. With the reluctance of B.C. and Syracuse to do so, Penn State then asked for membership in the BIG EAST. This was a turning point in the Conferences history. If Penn State was accepted, our football would be protected. If Penn State was rejected, B.C. and Syracuse might have no other option but to leave the BIG EAST, and join together with the other Eastern independents. To expand membership in The BIG EAST Conference six affirmative votes were necessary. The vote was 5-3. Instead of taking Penn State, we invited Pittsburgh as the ninth member. At that time Pittsburgh and Penn State were bitter rivals, and Pittsburgh was less than enamored with aligning itself with Penn State. Pitt's membership in the BIG EAST, along with B.C. and Syracuse, checkmated Penn State's eastern all-sports conference, and gave the Conference one more Division IA school. This football issue nearly caused the premature demise of the BIG EAST. Clearly, three schools in the BIG EAST had no concept of the importance of football, but the others realized that this decision not to invite Penn State would come back to haunt us. In fact, football would dictate every future consideration of membership expansion of our "basketball" conference.

Source: Crouthamel's 2000 Big East History/Retrospective Post
Also: Here's Part 2

Now had Rutgers accepted and taken on Seton Hall's spot... Penn State would've likely gotten that 6th vote.. plus the forced balance between the 1-A and non-1A schools may never have become a thing.
 
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Pittsburgh wasn't in the 3 schools were Villanova, St Johns, and Georgetown who said no.
That’s what is reported and widely believed.

There are reports that others were against, but I believe the report of Nova, Johns, and Georgetown. See link below.

 
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This is not accurate

This is correct. Pitt was the follow up to Penn State not getting the votes.

At least if you believe the account from Jake Crouthamel (former Syracuse AD)... I know Paterno has provided some alternative perspective with respect to the attempted formation of the Eastern Football Conference


Source: Crouthamel's 2000 Big East History/Retrospective Post
Also: Here's Part 2

Now had Rutgers accepted and taken on Seton Hall's spot... Penn State would've likely gotten that 6th vote.. plus the forced balance between the 1-A and non-1A schools may never have become a thing.
The Cuse AD is one account. Mike T. Also has an account. There are other references.

Some had blamed Cuse.

Each account has some questionable aspects. Most of these were written decades later, so some inaccuracies should be expected, along with bias / agenda of the writer.

I love to revisit the references though. Thanks for posting. Hopefully it doesn’t get removed.
 
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Don't think so. Pitt was a reactionary addition after Penn State didn't get the votes.
I’m not sure this is accurate.

There are recollections that the Big East considered Pitt and Penn State but was only going to choose one. Pitt was the more urban / TV market team and maybe the better positioned basketball team.

We know the Pitt accepted invite to the Big East is November 1981. The NYT reporting reference that I linked prior confirms the timing.

I think Pitt was chosen over Penn State. Pitt was invited and accepted.

Then…. It’s reported that Penn State requested to join the Big East formally in 1982. It is widely (WIDELY) reported that this happened in 1982, and that the formal vote was 1 short. In 1982… after Pitt was announced in Nov 1981.
 

CL82

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We know the Pitt accepted invite to the Big East is November 1981
Actually, you're the only person I've ever seen say that. Do you have a link for that?
 
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I posted a NYT article from 1981, on Pitt joining the Big East and ending the JoePa effort for Eastern Football.

I properly cited the source and author. It looks like the BY removed the post. Maybe it violated the rules.

Here is a link
The link is in the above post.

Nov 19, 1981. The University of Pittsburgh will join the Big East Conference next September, becoming the ninth member of that basketball-oriented league. The move is likely to end the chances of forming an Eastern major-college football conference proposed by Joe Paterno, Penn State's coach and athletic director. He has been trying for months to create such a league, with the idea of including Pittsburgh, now the nation's top-ranked team.
 
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In the alternate history, in addition to the Eastern 8 - Big East merger, Cincy, Temple, Miami, FSU, Louisville, and Va Tech are added:
  • Penn State, Pitt, WV, Cincinnati,
  • BC, Holy Cross, UConn, UMass
  • Syracuse, Nova, Rutgers, Temple
  • Miami, FSU, Louisville, Va Tech
 

dvegas

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There's a small problem with the logic you are using. The Big East, when initially formed was a conference for men's basketball only. The conference did not add other sports (track & field, baseball, soccer, etc) until the NCAA told them they had to in order to remain a valid conference.
There were Big East Championship Men's swim meets held at UConn (dump of a pool) in the 1979-80 and 1980-81 seasons (before my time). Moved to Syracuse for the 1981-82 season, Villanova was definitely a participant (still men only). Then Pitt (and women) were added for the 1982-83 season, and the championships held there for many years (and dominated by Pitt). I think the rule was you needed to sponsor 5 sports to be a conference. Cheapest way to do that (beyond Hoops) was X-Country, Indoor Track, Outdoor Track and Swimming.
 
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In the alternate history, in addition to the Eastern 8 - Big East merger, Cincy, Temple, Miami, FSU, Louisville, and Va Tech are added:
  • Penn State, Pitt, WV, Cincinnati,
  • BC, Holy Cross, UConn, UMass
  • Syracuse, Nova, Rutgers, Temple
  • Miami, FSU, Louisville, Va Tech
wow, you have no idea what Holy Cross is, do you?
 

CL82

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My dream scenario is that FSU loses their case against the ACC and gets stuck there for a long time.

Meanwhile, the Big 12 realizes that there won't be any available ACC teams anytime soon and adds UConn.
Or the ACC realizes that FSU and Clemson's 2036 departure is inevitable and offers us a full share to hedge against that unavoidable occurrence. ESPN being such a good corporate citizen of the state, agrees to pay for us to get a full share plus a little sweetener for the rest of the ACC.

(Truth be told, like most of us I have embraced the "any port in a storm" philosophy of realignment. We just need a seat at the table.)
 
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OT.,,,Guys. We are out celebrating tonight. 44 years ago tonight, I had my first date with my wife. To the FSU-Louisville game. It has been a good life.
Congrats. That’s a good run.
 

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