ESPN Top 10 NBA Players of All Time Mistake | Page 3 | The Boneyard

ESPN Top 10 NBA Players of All Time Mistake

I remember when the NBA was a Pretty local league.
I was a huge Oscar Robertson fan as a kid.
comparing LJ and MJ is really difficult
MJ did it with great athleticism,Incredible skill, and an unmatched artistry. combined with determination. He used all those in combination to impose his will.
LJ is Size , incredible Power, determination and guard skills , to impose his will.
Very different player,The question is who was more successful.
LB definitely carried less talented teams farther but MJ. despite his individual talent was better able to get teammates involved.
I’m old school team BB guy so I give the each to MJ.
 
WingU-Conn said:
Check my edit, I think it explains the disconnect.

If we're talking about what Jordan would have averaged today (which is what I was doing), of course we have to make assumptions. But those should be based on data, not pulled from thin air.
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He doesn't seem to get how Jordan taking .7 three pointers a game for his career and Harden taking 7.7 threes per game for his career accounts for a dramatic scoring increase in favor of Harden. The idea that a shooter as good as Jordan wouldn't be taking and making way more threes if he played in this era and his ppg average wouldn't be way higher is being just being disingenuous.
 
UConnSean said:
It's a tired argument but I think Rockets GM Daryl Morey said it best:
“People love to talk about this. For sure LeBron is the greatest human to play basketball. That’s not even a question, but it’s not even fair to Michael Jordan to say that. LeBron is years later and the game has evolved. And every athlete is pretty much better than the athletes were 30 years ago.

If you put MJ in the league now, that would be an interesting discussion but if you just want to say who is the best human to ever play basketball, I think it’s pretty obvious”
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FWIW - Morey appears to be in the minority.

 
Scoring- Jordan 10 time nba scoring champ out of the 11 seasons he played enough games to qualify with the Bulls.

Lebron 1 time scoring champ out of his 16 seasons he played enough games to qualify.

Defense- Jordan 1 time defensive player of the year, 9 time first team all-defense out of those 11 seasons.

Lebron 0 time defensive player of the year, 5 time first team all defense out of those 16 seasons.
 
Somewhat of a tangent and realizing this doesn't decide who is the best player to play in the NBA...………..

One on one, Bron v. MJ. Who are you taking?
 
CardiacAndre7 said:
I’m not comparing him to LeBron in this circumstance, but you’re forgetting to point out that MJ shot about 1/3 the amount of 3’s per game that LeBron has. So that certainly skews the statistic.

Either was I was responding to the idea that MJ would average 40-45 ppg in today’s league, which is ridiculous.
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He also wasn't practicing for it. It was a different era. Jordan, who was a way better mid-range shooter, and way better FT shooter than people in his era, could have certainly extended that range if that was the style of the game. He taught himself how to post-up and fade away midway through his career.
 
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Chin Diesel said:
Somewhat of a tangent and realizing this doesn't decide who is the best player to play in the NBA...………..

One on one, Bron v. MJ. Who are you taking?
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In their prime that’s so hard to pick. LeBron was an All-World defender for a good chunk and probably should’ve won that 2013 DPOY over Gasol, and obviously MJ is one of the greatest defenders ever. Toss up for me.
 
It really is almost all young people who didn't see MJ at his absolute prime who make this argument. It's recency bias, largely from people now in their 20s and early 30s who also didn't see Bird, Thomas, Magic, Kareem. If they don't watch the games, no amount of argument is going to change their minds. Meanwhile, people who played against both, people around the league who watched both, etc. all pick Jordan.

And what's interesting is that this isn't a hardened position, as it is for the people who didn't really see Jordan. Many of these former players and journalists, if you asked them in the 1980s, would have picked any number of people as the best ever: Robertson, Kareem, Russell, Chamberlain, Magic (by the late 80s). But after watching Jordan for his whole career, they changed their mind. I think that's important: most of the Jordan supporters aren't people my age or a little older, born in the early-mid 80s wanting to be like Mike. They're people who have been around the game a whole hell of a lot longer than the LeBron fans.

And saying LeBron is one of the 5 best players ever--certainly that's not a criticism! Many agree he's #2, but I think that crowning him that is a bit of recency bias, and I think there are arguments for Magic or Kareem ahead of him even if I might ultimately come out with LeBron being the best of that trio.
 
Doctor Hoop said:
They aren't gods. It's an opinion, that's all.
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Larry Bird begs to differ ...

“I would never have called him the greatest player I’d ever seen if I didn’t mean it,” Bird told The Boston Globe. “It’s just God disguised as Michael Jordan.”
 
I will always take Jordan if for no other reason than something he has naturally that LeBron doesn't... and that is a killer instinct unsurpassed in basketball. He had a mental toughness that other guys just don't have.

The refs didn't help LeBron's reputation in the beginning. People complained because the refs gave him a long leash in the beginning the Jordan had to "earn" at first. And anyone who brings up Jordan getting away with traveling needs to go to youtube and type in Lebron and travel.

LeBron is great and as cerebral as he is athletic. But if the two went head to head in their prime, it comes down to a battle of wills and I take Jordan then.
 
Jordan played and started every game in four of the six seasons the Bulls won. He missed a combined six games over those six seasons. LeBron missed six games in 15-16 alone. He missed 34 in the four years he was with Miami.
 
UConnSean said:
It's a tired argument but I think Rockets GM Daryl Morey said it best:
“People love to talk about this. For sure LeBron is the greatest human to play basketball. That’s not even a question, but it’s not even fair to Michael Jordan to say that. LeBron is years later and the game has evolved. And every athlete is pretty much better than the athletes were 30 years ago.

If you put MJ in the league now, that would be an interesting discussion but if you just want to say who is the best human to ever play basketball, I think it’s pretty obvious”
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This is a brutal take by Morey. MJ was in the NBA one season before LeBron's rookie year. People act like there was some massive gap in the time MJ retired and LeBron's career. People also act like it was 1985 for all of MJ's career and 2019 for all of LeBron's. Nearly every major player that LeBron did battle with for the first decade of his career was in the NBA when MJ was on the Wizards, giving people buckets at 40 years of age with a sliver of his prime athleticism.

Did Tim Duncan, Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili, Shaq, Kobe, Chris Webber, Allen Iverson, Dirk Nowitzki, Pau Gasol, Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, Chauncey Billups, Ben Wallace, Rasheed Wallace, Rip Hamilton, Steve Nash, and co all magically get significantly more athletic in the years after MJ retired? Because those are the guys who were LeBron's main competition for more than half of his career.

I'm not saying the NBA isn't more athletic in 2020 than it was in 1985, obviously it is, but this notion that MJ played his entire career against far inferior athletes than LeBron did is way off base.
 
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tzznandrew said:
Meanwhile, people who played against both, people around the league who watched both, etc. all pick Jordan.

And what's interesting is that this isn't a hardened position, as it is for the people who didn't really see Jordan. Many of these former players and journalists, if you asked them in the 1980s, would have picked any number of people as the best ever: Robertson, Kareem, Russell, Chamberlain, Magic (by the late 80s). But after watching Jordan for his whole career, they changed their mind. I think that's important: most of the Jordan supporters aren't people my age or a little older, born in the early-mid 80s wanting to be like Mike. They're people who have been around the game a whole hell of a lot longer than the LeBron fans.
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It's wild that guys like Bird and Magic were publicly declaring MJ the best player in the league, and then the best player ever, before they retired. These guys were uber-competitive, still active players, the face of the league, the guys who saved the NBA, and they're saying MJ is the best. That's nuts.
 
BlueDogs said:
MJ was dominant and transformed the game using the entire floor as a weapon. Chamberlain shaped low post big man basketball for years. Bird brought the low post drive and long range dagger. Johnson transformed the point guard position. LJ is hugely dominant using his physicality in iso but hasn’t changed the game IMO. For that reason MJ is GOAT, Chamberlain is next, then Bird and Magic as toss up, and then LJ. Whatever the case, you’re talking about simply extraordinary players head and shoulders above their peers.
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hahaha Lebron 5th now thats funny. Lebron has the greatest basketball mind to ever play the game. No player in the history of the NBA has made his teammates better than Lebron has.
 
Lefty2one said:
People also act like it was 1985 for all of MJ's career and 2019 for all of LeBron's. Nearly every major player that LeBron did battle with for the first decade of his career was in the NBA when MJ was on the Wizards, giving people buckets at 40 years of age with a sliver of his prime athleticism.
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They also act like the quality of the league was all 1997 for Jordan and all 2019 for LeBron. The league is much better now than it was in 1997 for a variety of reasons (expansion diluting the pool, a series of potential stars getting money and not sticking with their game, etc.), but that same crappy league was still the same crappy league in 2007. I mean, people talk about LeBron dragging a terrible Cavs team to the Finals in 2007, but they went through:

41-41 Wizards
41-41 Nets
53-29 Pistons

That Cavs team was a 2-seed, too, not a 5 or seed or anything. They were, thus, one of the favorites to come out of the East (though everyone assumed it would be the declining Pistons).

And, just on record (and their record would be worse if they were in the West), they'd have been the 6-seed out West playing the Spurs team that swept them. That's literally what would have happened to them, just in the first round rather than the Finals.
 
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BleedHuskyBlu said:
No player in the history of the NBA has made his teammates better than Lebron has.
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BleedHuskyBlu said:
hahaha Lebron 5th now thats funny. Lebron has the greatest basketball mind to ever play the game. No player in the history of the NBA has made his teammates better than Lebron has.
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I mean, hyperbole is great and all, but that's a meaningless statement.

First, there's no way to prove it. Like, I could just as well argue by fiat that Magic, Bird, and Robertson made their teammates better than LeBron did pretty easily. How do you calculate that? Players playing with Shaq look pretty damn good. Same with Hakeem. But I genuinely don't see how you can make that argument with a straight face with ignoring Magic, even if we ignore the others.

Players who play with LeBron have to sacrifice so much more than with some of the other greats, too, because as good a passer as he is, he needs to initiate the offense in a way so many others did.
 
tzznandrew said:
Players who play with LeBron have to sacrifice so much more than with some of the other greats, too, because as good a passer as he is, he needs to initiate the offense in a way so many other greats did.
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Exactly this. Players, no matter how good, had to fit into LeBron's style of play. He does the lion's share of the work and you space the floor, whether your a scrub or an All-Star. You're going to have to accept a reduced role.
 
Lefty2one said:
Exactly this. Players, no matter how good, had to fit into LeBron's style of play. He does the lion's share of the work and you space the floor, whether your a scrub or an All-Star. You're going to have to accept a reduced role.
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Are we pretending players didn't need to adjust to playing with MJ too?
 
Lefty2one said:
Exactly this. Players, no matter how good, had to fit into LeBron's style of play. He does the lion's share of the work and you space the floor, whether your a scrub or an All-Star. You're going to have to accept a reduced role.
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Bird and Magic, just to pick two, could fit into any system and make the whole team better.

Magic started and won a title on a team centered on Kareem. Then they built it around him for the Showtime Lakers, and then he was in the Finals against Jordan with a team that ranked 25 out of 27 teams in Pace. Dude could play any style.
 
Lebron is great he will always have an argument to be a Top 2,3 whatever. But he would've easily been the games biggest whiner (may be anyway) ever had he played back when Michael played that's a no brainer. The more I have a chance to watch the '84 Celts stuff, the Pistons stuff and Michaels stuff because there's nothing on I can't believe how hard and physical they played in comparison to todays game. Watching a C's game vs the Hawks and Kevin Willis guarding McHale and Wilkins guarding Larry as they are both backing people in and getting physically hammered while doing so, it was crazy tough basketball in those days. No reviews for hard fouls like today with pansy crap it as basketball. To win it all you had to be really really tough mentally and physically for 40 minutes a game.

I mean it's Michael as to who #1 is and it's not really close.
 
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Lefty2one said:
This is a brutal take by Morey. MJ was in the NBA one season before LeBron's rookie year. People act like there was some massive gap in the time MJ retired and LeBron's career. People also act like it was 1985 for all of MJ's career and 2019 for all of LeBron's. Nearly every major player that LeBron did battle with for the first decade of his career was in the NBA when MJ was on the Wizards, giving people buckets at 40 years of age with a sliver of his prime athleticism.

Did Tim Duncan, Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili, Shaq, Kobe, Chris Webber, Allen Iverson, Dirk Nowitzki, Pau Gasol, Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, Chauncey Billups, Ben Wallace, Rasheed Wallace, Rip Hamilton, Steve Nash, and co all magically get significantly more athletic in the years after MJ retired? Because those are the guys who were LeBron's main competition for more than half of his career.

I'm not saying the NBA isn't more athletic in 2020 than it was in 1985, obviously it is, but this notion that MJ played his entire career against far inferior athletes than LeBron did is way off base.
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I'm not sure he was being literal with his 30 years comment. I think his point was that athletes continue to get better as time goes on. The increased technology and the increased competition is undoubtedly leading to better athletes. Athletes progress over time just like anything in life
 
BleedHuskyBlu said:
hahaha Lebron 5th now thats funny. Lebron has the greatest basketball mind to ever play the game. No player in the history of the NBA has made his teammates better than Lebron has.
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How does he have the greatest basketball mind? He has a really good one but there were so many great minds who played the game. His mind isn't any better than Magics or Larrys that's for sure. And I know all of their teammates got better around their games too.
 
UConnSean said:
I'm not sure he was being literal with his 30 years comment. I think his point was that athletes continue to get better as time goes on. The increased technology and the increased competition is undoubtedly leading to better athletes. Athletes progress over time just like anything in life
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Great players would have adjusted to the game though because they are great. Agree many of the middle of the bench guys would have a tough time against many of the athletes of this day but not the great ones, they'd fit in fine.
 
mauconnfan said:
How does he have the greatest basketball mind? He has a really good one but there were so many great minds who played the game. His mind isn't any better than Magics or Larrys that's for sure. And I know all of their teammates got better around their games too.
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LeBron has one of the best minds ever, but this dude is either trolling really hard or just someone who likes to spout completely unprovable statements.
 
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