Ernest Jones resigns | Page 11 | The Boneyard

Ernest Jones resigns

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Carl Spackler said:
BTW: I do agree that if for some reason, a game were moved due to a conflict with a Christian holiday, there would have been significant backlash in Connecticut from the people that like to give such kind of backlash.
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No way
 
Carl Spackler said:
That's an easy one. Why is it legal that schools closed on Christmas? It's not. But it's common practice nationwide, because there are a lot more children in the United States that are raised with a Christianity based belief system, than any other, and Christmas morning is when Christian children get to open presents from Kris Kringle, otherwise known as Santa Claus. He lives at the north pole with a whole bunch of elves, and travels around the world delivering toys to Christian children on Christmas eve. It's all done with magic dust.

But should anyone try to enforce the law, the political backlash would be highly detrimental to those that like to collect paychecks as elected officials.
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No, it is legal. It's legal because the Establishment Clause does not force the Government to ignore people's religions when it comes to scheduling. It is a reasonable accomodation, not an "establishment." Again, Karl, the fact that you raise something as an issue simply does not make it an issue. There are hard remaining questions at the cutting edge of interpreting the Establishment Clause, but the Jones matter is not one of them. There are no hard constitutional questions here.

And I'm sorry that the Fox News comparison bothers you, but I defend it wholeheartedly (and acknowledge that in a somewhat different way MSNBC has become just as much of a non-news network). The fact that one can stand up and raise an issue (like denying evolution) does not make it a real issue.
 
upstater said:
This issue of Yom Kippur came up recently in a debate about religious holidays. The trend now is to get rid of them (all except for Christmas and Easter) at universities. The objections were to the fact that certain students are compelled by their religion not to attend classes. This is different from Ramadan which requires fasting (students attend those classes). When you're forbidden from attending, that creates a whole other situation, so accommodation is a consideration.
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Easter falls on Sunday. There is no conflict with school classes. Christmas, by tradition, falls on the winter break between semesters. On the other hand, I do remember getting Good Friday off when I was a kid and I know they don't anymore (Someone has previously explained that this is the result of a nationwide education reform), but some Christians view Good Friday with at least equal importance as Easter. Holy Thursday is Passover, and we never got that off either. I also remember missing the beginning of basketball practice for the public rec leagues in order get ashes, because services for Ash Wednesday weren't necessarily accommodated.

The bottom line is that it's pretty easy to defend the accommodation of events, religious or otherwise, that don't interfere with a public schedule. I also have no problem with public schools and government offices setting up their schedules that disregard all religious holidays and letting the family decide whether they attend class or service. That way there is no questions of accommodation of one faith over the another. I know for a fact that if my office wasn't closed on Christmas, I'd reserve a vacation day specifically for December 25.
 
Husky25 said:
Easter falls on Sunday. There is no conflict with school classes. Christmas, by tradition, falls on the winter break between semesters. On the other hand, I do remember getting Good Friday off when I was a kid and I know they don't anymore (Someone has previously explained that this is the result of a nationwide education reform), but some Christians view Good Friday with at least equal importance as Easter. Holy Thursday is Passover, and we never got that off either. I also remember missing the beginning of basketball practice for the public rec leagues in order get ashes, because services for Ash Wednesday weren't necessarily accommodated.

The bottom line is that it's pretty easy to defend the accommodation of events, religious or otherwise, that don't interfere with a public schedule. I also have no problem with public schools and government offices setting up their schedules that disregard all religious holidays and letting the family decide whether they attend class or service. That way there is no questions of accommodation of one faith over the another. I know for a fact that if my office wasn't closed on Christmas, I'd reserve a vacation day specifically for December 25.
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Did you really just imply that the winter school break predates Christmas being a holiday?
 
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Carl Spackler said:
BTW: I do agree that if for some reason, a game were moved due to a conflict with a Christian holiday, there would have been significant backlash in Connecticut from the people that like to give such kind of backlash.
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Baseball and Golf are played on Easter and NBA Basketball, the NFL, and/or College Football are played on Christmas, depending on what day it falls. Do I miss the backlash because I celebrate these two holidays out of state?
 
Carl Spackler said:
No, there was not. The Jesus in the huddle thing, is something that should have been addressed by superiors behind closed doors, and the public statement made by the man himself, with same reporter that started the thing.
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No, that is your opinion of what you think should have happened. I'm sure Susan decided to do what she thought was best. She outranks you in the decision making process.
 
businesslawyer said:
Did you really just imply that the winter school break predates Christmas being a holiday?
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No. I implied that the accommodation of Christmas predates the politically correct de-Christmasing of this particular time of year. E.g. The Christmas Ball transformed into the Winter Ball, Christmas Vacation morphing into winter break, semester break, or holiday vacation, with an emphasis on New Years.
 
businesslawyer said:
No, it is legal. It's legal because the Establishment Clause does not force the Government to ignore people's religions when it comes to scheduling. It is a reasonable accomodation, not an "establishment." Again, Karl, the fact that you raise something as an issue simply does not make it an issue. There are hard remaining questions at the cutting edge of interpreting the Establishment Clause, but the Jones matter is not one of them. There are no hard constitutional questions here.

And I'm sorry that the Fox News comparison bothers you, but I defend it wholeheartedly (and acknowledge that in a somewhat different way MSNBC has become just as much of a non-news network). The fact that one can stand up and raise an issue (like denying evolution) does not make it a real issue.
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Oy vey....(see what I did there?...) Oh good Lord, the evolution thing. Of all the kookiness that can exist in our society in 2014, that's one of the kookiest.

Thanks for you response. I do appreciate it.

I'm not a lawyer, and don't care to be trained to think like one. I'll continue to think about things they way I please and opine on them as well - thank you very much. ;-)

I do appreciate you putting this thing to task like you did.

This Jones matter, I agree completely, is not an Establishment Clause issue. I understand now, that it is not.

I stand by my opinion that the university handled the situation poorly in public.
 
Husky25 said:
Baseball and Golf are played on Easter and NBA Basketball, the NFL, and/or College Football are played on Christmas, depending on what day it falls. Do I miss the backlash because I celebrate these two holidays out of state?
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Yup.

uconnfan68 said:
No, that is your opinion of what you think should have happened. I'm sure Susan decided to do what she thought was best. She outranks you in the decision making process.
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And those around here, call me "master of stating of the obvious"
 
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Husky25 said:
Easter falls on Sunday. There is no conflict with school classes. Christmas, by tradition, falls on the winter break between semesters. On the other hand, I do remember getting Good Friday off when I was a kid and I know they don't anymore (Someone has previously explained that this is the result of a nationwide education reform), but some Christians view Good Friday with at least equal importance as Easter. Holy Thursday is Passover, and we never got that off either. I also remember missing the beginning of basketball practice for the public rec leagues in order get ashes, because services for Ash Wednesday weren't necessarily accommodated.

The bottom line is that it's pretty easy to defend the accommodation of events, religious or otherwise, that don't interfere with a public schedule. I also have no problem with public schools and government offices setting up their schedules that disregard all religious holidays and letting the family decide whether they attend class or service. That way there is no questions of accommodation of one faith over the another. I know for a fact that if my office wasn't closed on Christmas, I'd reserve a vacation day specifically for December 25.
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You're thinking of schools with 2 semesters. Those are the old days. Winter intersession now starts before Christmas, then continues on the 27th or 28th. Good Friday is a day off in Spring as well. But as I said, because of the need for schools to make money, most religious and regular holidays are now eliminated. (Not sure if UConn has done so, but all the SUNY's have, and this is a national trend). This Spring for example, my school has not one single holiday. No MLK, no President's Day. I noticed a lot of people in the private and corporate world had Monday off. Not so at universities. Things are changing with religious and public holidays. Schools feel the need to cram as much instruction as possible into the year to generate revenue. But, Christmas is still a holiday. The only other one I can think of that remains is Thanksgiving. All other holidays are eliminated.
 
Husky25 said:
No. I implied that the accommodation of Christmas predates the politically correct de-Christmasing of this particular time of year. E.g. The Christmas Ball transformed into the Winter Ball, Christmas Vacation morphing into winter break, semester break, or holiday vacation, with an emphasis on New Years.
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My wife is a public school employee. This year, they could no longer do "secret Santa" among the staff. They did "secret Snowman".

My comment was, "how soon before it's secret Snowperson."
 
Carl Spackler said:
My wife is a public school employee. This year, they could no longer do "secret Santa" among the staff. They did "secret Snowman".

My comment was, "how soon before it's secret Snowperson."
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PC has always been around. Always certain things you couldn't say in public. It's just now being pressed on the other side of the fence, and people don't like it.
 
Carl Spackler said:
How does the representatives of the state university requesting that broadcasting networks reschedule a football game to 7pm on Yom Kippur, therefore clearly acting in a way that favors a particular religion fit into all of this?

As far as I can tell, based on the spouting of opinions here, the only difference is that nobody wrote a letter to the editor, and that's hypocritical. In know there are a lot of Jewish folks in CT, but they all seem to be quiet on this issue. THis coach, clearly crossed a line, and it was addressed. It was a matter of words, and potential behavior - potential - that was halted. The university officials, actually did schedule a football game at an odd time, that did not work well for me, because of Yom Kippur last year though.

Yom Kippur, I believe falls on the first weekend of October this year - and if we get a home game, which would probably be homecoming - it better not be scheduled at 7pm as far as I'm concerned, because that, to me, is the state institution operating in a way that favors a particular religion.
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Carl, Carl, if the University had said all players and fans must attend Yom Kippur services, that would be a yarmulke of a different color. They were accommodating fans (and the take by vendors) by delaying the start of the game. I don't really know why the guy resigned, but frankly, I find the notion of bringing Jesus into the huddle a little odd. In the name of the Prince of Peace, let's get out there and knock those guys into the next century. Amen.
 
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Carl Spackler said:
My wife is a public school employee. This year, they could no longer do "secret Santa" among the staff. They did "secret Snowman".

My comment was, "how soon before it's secret Snowperson."
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That must have ruined her Xmas.
 
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cohenzone said:
Carl, Carl, if the Unuversity had said all players and fans must attend Yom Kippur services, that would be a yarmulke of a different color. They were accommodating fans (and the take by vendors) by delaying the start of the game. I don't really know why the guy resigned, but frankly, I find the notion if bringing Jesus into the huddle a little odd. In the name of the Prince of Peace, let's get out there and knock those guys into the next century. Amen.
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I wonder what percentage of season ticket holders are Jewish. My gut tells me that this thought process, that the game was moved for economic reasons, is a convenient fabrication for a minority that have a belief system that involves some kind of tradition of practices through the ages, based on a thought process that by not eating during daylight hours from the night before, among other practices, and the suffering it entails, makes up for some, if not all, of the naughtiness that people did up to that point.
 
upstater said:
You're thinking of schools with 2 semesters. Those are the old days. Winter intersession now starts before Christmas, then continues on the 27th or 28th. Good Friday is a day off in Spring as well. But as I said, because of the need for schools to make money, most religious and regular holidays are now eliminated. (Not sure if UConn has done so, but all the SUNY's have, and this is a national trend). This Spring for example, my school has not one single holiday. No MLK, no President's Day. I noticed a lot of people in the private and corporate world had Monday off. Not so at universities. Things are changing with religious and public holidays. Schools feel the need to cram as much instruction as possible into the year to generate revenue. But, Christmas is still a holiday. The only other one I can think of that remains is Thanksgiving. All other holidays are eliminated.
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Certainly, it varies by jurisdiction and semesters is all I know, so I can't speak to trimesters or intersession classes. Presidents' Day fell during February Recess in my town (We used to get a week. It looks like they only get a 5 day weekend now). They also got MLK and Memorial Day off as well as get a full week for April Vacation. Students definitely need a few days to recharge after Finals and if those off days coincide with Christmas, so be it. As I said, if Finals were to end a week before Christmas and Intersession class were to start on 12/23, you better believe I ain't showing up on the 25th, if I have a class.

No two entities are necessarily bound by the same scheduling obligations/limitations, especially when comparing the corporate world to a public university. My wife had work on Monday, I did not. It also depends on what the employer does. Those who are heavily bank-dependent are hampered by bank holidays. Banks don't affect the laborer on a manufacturing floor.

I would expect public institutions who draw on government funds to continue scheduling their year regardless of religious holidays and leave it up to the individual how they choose to celebrate.
 
Carl Spackler said:
I wonder what percentage of season ticket holders are Jewish. My gut tells me that this thought process, that the game was moved for economic reasons, is a convenient fabrication for a minority that have a belief system that involves some kind of tradition of practices through the ages, based on a thought process that by not eating during daylight hours from the night before, among other practices, and the suffering it entails, makes up for some, if not all, of the naughtiness that people did up to that point.
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As an atheist whose wife still believes, I would have been shunned had I gone to a day game on the holiest of Jewish holidays The rest of my big contributing entourage would not have attended. The few thousand other Jews who hold seasons tickets mostly wouldn't have gone (I know that's pulled out of my rear, but I base it on the people I know who I run into at the game coupled with their obvious Tallis fringes). Every post that's identified why other game times aren't adjusted for other major holidays are pretty much dead on.
 
Carl Spackler said:
Oy vey....(see what I did there?...) Oh good Lord, the evolution thing. Of all the kookiness that can exist in our society in 2014, that's one of the kookiest.

Thanks for you response. I do appreciate it.

I'm not a lawyer, and don't care to be trained to think like one. I'll continue to think about things they way I please and opine on them as well - thank you very much. ;-)

I do appreciate you putting this thing to task like you did.

This Jones matter, I agree completely, is not an Establishment Clause issue. I understand now, that it is not.

I stand by my opinion that the university handled the situation poorly in public.
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Reasonable minds can differ as to whether Herbst's handling of the situation needed to be public, as opposed to private.
 
Husky25 said:
Certainly, it varies by jurisdiction and semesters is all I know, so I can't speak to trimesters or intersession classes. Presidents' Day fell during February Recess in my town (We used to get a week. It looks like they only get a 5 day weekend now). They also got MLK and Memorial Day off as well as get a full week for April Vacation. Students definitely need a few days to recharge after Finals and if those off days coincide with Christmas, so be it. As I said, if Finals were to end a week before Christmas and Intersession class were to start on 12/23, you better believe I ain't showing up on the 25th, if I have a class.

No two entities are necessarily bound by the same scheduling obligations/limitations, especially when comparing the corporate world to a public university. My wife had work on Monday, I did not. It also depends on what the employer does. Those who are heavily bank-dependent are hampered by bank holidays. Banks don't affect the laborer on a manufacturing floor.

I would expect public institutions who draw on government funds to continue scheduling their year regardless of religious holidays and leave it up to the individual how they choose to celebrate.
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The thing that has caught my attention however is that with the new non-traditional schedules, classes fall directly around Christmas. So it doesn't coincide with break anymore. That being said, this is still a practical accommodation and not religious in scope because Christmas is like Thanksgiving in that sense. I would also argue that Yom Kippur would be a practical holiday if they chose to accommodate such students. Regardless, there are now only 2 holidays at my school (Christmas and Thanksgiving) plus Spring Break.
 
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cohenzone said:
As an atheist whose wife still believes, I would have been shunned had I gone to a day game on the holiest of Jewish holidays The rest of my big contributing entourage would not have attended. The few thousand other Jews who hold seasons tickets mostly wouldn't have gone (I know that's pulled out of my rear, but I base it on the people I know who I run into at the game coupled with their obvious Tallis fringes). Every post that's identified why other game times aren't adjusted for other major holidays are pretty much dead on.
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Those "few thousand" - which I think is probably high estimate, pulling out of my rear..... tickets could be gifted to someone (or sold) to someone who would be in the seats and buying products from vendors. They were already purchased - those season tickets, so it's no financial loss for the university, if those of the jewish faith did not attend - especially when you consider the vending arrangements and the Rentschler Field relationship with the university. No - I think it was a pretty selfish thing, in retrospect, by a minority of people, to request that the game be moved. :-)

On another note, I can't imagine that it's easy to be of such different beliefs with your wife, and I hope that it is not difficult for you. As for myself, I can say that I get shunned terribly when I choose a UCONN football game over one of the younger people in my family's sporting events that tend to be scheduled for Saturdays, and I have given my tickets up to others in the past, in favor of those events.
 
upstater said:
If the President isn't protecting the university from lawsuits, then she isn't doing her job.
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She didn't need to speak publicly to do that. She could have handled it behind closed doors with a paper trail. Included in that would be a file with Mr. Jones', HCBD's and WM's signatures (as his direct supervisors I assume) that confirmed whatever corrective actions and discussions took place. The AD office could have released a short statement saying the situation has been handled internally along with a short statement from Jones clarifying his comment.

This paper trail would be available upon discovery and any lawsuit would likely be dismissed, or successfully defended. I'm not a lawyer, but I don't think it takes one to figure that out.
 
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businesslawyer said:
Reasonable minds can differ as to whether Herbst's handling of the situation needed to be public, as opposed to private.
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It would appear, counselor, based on your own testimony that the Jones matter is not an Establishment Clause issue, that the University president had no need to address the matter as such in the press.

:-) Have a good day BL. Nice to hear from you again. You should write around here more.
 
Carl Spackler said:
Those "few thousand" - which I think is probably high estimate, pulling out of my rear..... tickets could be gifted to someone (or sold) to someone who would be in the seats and buying products from vendors. They were already purchased - those season tickets, so it's no financial loss for the university, if those of the jewish faith did not attend - especially when you consider the vending arrangements and the Rentschler Field relationship with the university. No - I think it was a pretty selfish thing, in retrospect, by a minority of people, to request that the game be moved. :)

On another note, I can't imagine that it's easy to be of such different beliefs with your wife, and I hope that it is not difficult for you. As for myself, I can say that I get shunned terribly when I choose a UCONN football game over one of the younger people in my family's sporting events that tend to be scheduled for Saturdays, and I have given my tickets up to others in the past, in favor of those events.
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Our beliefs are pretty similar. She's just more superstitious than I am and wants to be sure I'll be allowed to live long enough to continue cutting the lawn and washing the dishes a while longer.
 
Carl Spackler said:
BTW: I do agree that if for some reason, a game were moved due to a conflict with a Christian holiday, there would have been significant backlash in Connecticut from the people that like to give such kind of backlash.
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Again, you're wrong. It's not about "people that like to give such kind of backlash." Comments like that betray a closed mind. I think it's a good thing that Connecticut addresses these issues. Do we really want to be like Kansas where laws promoting discrimination under the guise of religious freedom are not only proposed, but pass in the state legislature by landslide margins?
 
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