Deflate-gate one year ago, Science proves NFL wrong

[upstater]

"He became the most difficult low-post player to defend -- once he made the catch -- in the history of the league," contended former NBA coach Hubie Brown in the Boston Globe. "He was totally unstoppable because of his quickness, diversification of moves and the long arms that gave him an angle to release the ball over a taller man or more explosive jumper."

http://www.nytimes.com/1985/05/27/sports/mchale-celtic-who-gives-rivals-fits.html

Published: May 27, 1985: ''ASK any coach,'' says Chuck Daly of the Detroit Pistons, ''and he'll tell you that the first thing on any Celtic scouting report is to watch out for McHale, not Larry Bird.''

If that sounds surprising, it shouldn't be. After four mediocre playoff seasons, Kevin McHale, the 6-foot-10-inch forward who earns $1 million a year, has emerged as a major force in the Boston Celtics' bid to become the first team since 1969 to repeat as champion."

Emphasis on May 27, 1985 and the time of McHale's emergence. March to June 1985, then the 1986 season until he hurt his Achilles. A very short period of time.

That being said, Charles Barkley, Hubie Brown, Chuck Daly and even Larry Bird do not disagree with what I said earlier.

 

[superjohn]

Well, if you believe the Goodellian twist jobs of what I said, I wouldn't agree that Bird is better than McHale either, because I never said that.

These guys act like this is some sort of crazy statement, that McHale at his best was better than Bird, but it's not like I'm the only one: Fellow NBA Hall of Famer Charles Barkley said of McHale, "Kevin McHale's the best player I played against because he was unstoppable offensively, and he gave me nightmares on defense."[7]

Barkley played against Bird as well.

During the year I'm referencing, McHale was the NBA Defensive Player of the Year, and 4th in MVP voting behind Magic, Bird, and Michael Jordan.

It is not a stretch at all to say he was unstoppable and played at a higher level than Bird ever played during a portion of that season. It's not even close over their careers, because McHale only came into his own that year. And after that, he broke his foot, played on it, and totally damaged his career. We have no idea how he would have played after that. Then again, Bird hurt his back in 1987 and he wasn't the same player ever again either.

But hey, maybe Chief is waiting for Barkley to show up in the Drummond room.

You just keep digging, the year you've been referencing the whole time is 1985, where Bird was the MVP and McHale wasn't even in the top 23 MVP vote getters and wasn't in the running for defensive player of the year. You are the only one on your island and you look more and more foolish with each post on this matter.

 

[sdhusky]

I'm not going to jump into the fray, as I don't have enough interest in the argument, but the above statement could simply be Charles talking about the guys he directly faced up against on the court. McHale was a PF and Barkley and him probably went one on one a number of times. I'm willing to bet CB didn't spend a lot of time covering Bird and vice versa.

McHale was 7 inches taller than Barkley and had freakishly long arms. Yeah, he had trouble against McHale.

 

[intlzncster]

I'm nitpicking, but he was injured with 2:31 left in the game. The 14 point lead had already evaporated to 4 points by then

My bad. Not nitpicking at all. Good call.

 

[upstater]

I'm not going to jump into the fray, as I don't have enough interest in the argument, but the above statement could simply be Charles talking about the guys he directly faced up against on the court. McHale was a PF and Barkley and him probably went one on one a number of times. I'm willing to bet CB didn't spend a lot of time covering Bird and vice versa.

CB did cover Bird. This is because Bird was playing power forward up until 1985. The Celtics traded away several players from that 1984 team, and that's when Bird moved to small forward. So in Barkley's first year, he had him. Also remember that Barkley switched to SF to Bobby jones's PF. Erving played both SF and SG with Andrew Toney. But Bird and Barkley had opposite career arcs, because as Bird moved to SF once the Celtics made their trades, Barkley moved permanently to only PF after the older 76ers were sent away. I imagine with switches these guys were on each other and defending each other a lot. But again, McHale injured his achilles late in 86 and then broke his foot in 87. So I'm not even talking about that McHale.

 

[sdhusky]

During the year I'm referencing, McHale was the NBA Defensive Player of the Year, and 4th in MVP voting behind Magic, Bird, and Michael Jordan.

ummm, not quite. Not in the top 20 in MVP and not listed in Defensive player of the year.

1984-85 NBA Awards Voting
Most Valuable Player

Voting Per Game Shooting Advanced
Rank Player Age Tm First Pts Won Pts Max Share G MP PTS TRB AST STL BLK FG% 3P% FT% Win Shares
An estimate of the number of wins contributed by a player." style="margin: 0px; padding: 3px; font-style: inherit; text-align: center; border-width: 1px; border-style: solid; border-color: rgb(116, 118, 120) rgb(170, 170, 170); color: rgb(170, 0, 0); cursor: pointer; background-color: rgb(218, 220, 222);">WS Win Shares Per 48 Minutes
An estimate of the number of wins contributed by a player per 48 minutes (league average is approximately .100)" style="margin: 0px; padding: 3px; font-style: inherit; text-align: center; border-width: 1px; border-style: solid; border-color: rgb(116, 118, 120) rgb(116, 118, 120) rgb(116, 118, 120) rgb(170, 170, 170); color: rgb(170, 0, 0); cursor: pointer; background-color: rgb(218, 220, 222);">WS/48
1 Larry Bird 28 BOS 73.0 763.0 780 0.978 80 39.5 28.7 10.5 6.6 1.6 1.2 .522 .427 .882 15.7 .238
2 Magic Johnson 25 LAL 1.0 264.0 780 0.338 77 36.1 18.3 6.2 12.6 1.5 0.3 .561 .189 .843 12.7 .220
3 Moses Malone 29 PHI 0.0 218.0 780 0.279 79 37.4 24.6 13.1 1.6 0.8 1.6 .469 .000 .815 11.9 .193
4 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 37 LAL 0.0 206.0 780 0.264 79 33.3 22.0 7.9 3.2 0.8 2.1 .599 .000 .732 11.2 .204
5 Terry Cummings 23 MIL 2.0 138.0 780 0.177 79 34.5 23.6 9.1 2.9 1.5 0.8 .495 .000 .741 10.7 .189
6 Michael Jordan 21 CHI 2.0 134.0 780 0.172 82 38.3 28.2 6.5 5.9 2.4 0.8 .515 .173 .845 14.0 .213
7 Bernard King 28 NYK 0.0 70.0 780 0.090 55 37.5 32.9 5.8 3.7 1.3 0.3 .530 .100 .772 7.1 .166
8 Sidney Moncrief 27 MIL 0.0 65.0 780 0.083 73 37.5 21.7 5.4 5.2 1.6 0.5 .483 .273 .828 11.2 .197
9 Isiah Thomas 23 DET 0.0 63.0 780 0.081 81 38.1 21.2 4.5 13.9 2.3 0.3 .458 .257 .809 11.2 .173
10 Ralph Sampson 24 HOU 0.0 26.0 780 0.033 82 37.6 22.1 10.4 2.7 1.0 2.0 .502 .000 .676 6.2 .096
11 Calvin Natt 28 DEN 0.0 22.0 780 0.028 78 34.1 23.3 7.8 3.1 1.0 0.4 .546 .000 .793 10.2 .185
12T Alex English 31 DEN 0.0 12.0 780 0.015 81 36.1 27.9 5.7 4.2 1.2 0.6 .518 .200 .829 8.9 .146
12T Hakeem Olajuwon 22 HOU 0.0 12.0 780 0.015 82 35.5 20.6 11.9 1.4 1.2 2.7 .538 .613 10.2 .168
14 Micheal Ray Richardson 29 NJN 0.0 11.0 780 0.014 82 38.1 20.1 5.6 8.2 3.0 0.3 .469 .252 .767 8.7 .134
15 Andrew Toney 27 PHI 0.0 5.0 780 0.006 70 32.0 17.8 2.5 5.2 0.9 0.3 .492 .371 .862 5.5 .118
16 Mark Eaton 28 UTA 0.0 4.0 780 0.005 82 34.3 9.7 11.3 1.5 0.4 5.6 .449 .712 5.4 .093
17T Paul Pressey 26 MIL 0.0 3.0 780 0.004 80 36.0 16.1 5.4 6.8 1.6 0.7 .517 .350 .758 9.6 .160
17T Jack Sikma 29 SEA 0.0 3.0 780 0.004 68 35.3 18.5 10.6 4.2 1.2 1.3 .489 .200 .852 8.3 .166
17T Dominique Wilkins 25 ATL 0.0 3.0 780 0.004 81 37.3 27.4 6.9 2.5 1.7 0.7 .451 .309 .806 7.6 .121
20T World B. Free 31 CLE 0.0 2.0 780 0.003 71 31.7 22.5 3.0 4.5 1.1 0.2 .459 .368 .749 6.0 .127
20T Purvis Short 27 GSW 0.0 2.0 780 0.003 78 39.5 28.0 5.1 3.0 1.5 0.3 .460 .313 .817 6.2 .097
22T Clyde Drexler 22 POR 0.0 1.0 780 0.001 80 31.9 17.2 6.0 5.5 2.2 0.9 .494 .216 .759 7.5 .141
22T Julius Erving 34 PHI 0.0 1.0 780 0.001 78 32.5 20.0 5.3 3.0 1.7 1.4 .494 .214 .765 7.6 .144

Defensive Player of the Year

Voting Per Game Shooting Advanced
Rank Player Age Tm First Pts Won Pts Max Share G MP PTS TRB AST STL BLK FG% 3P% FT% Win Shares
An estimate of the number of wins contributed by a player." style="margin: 0px; padding: 3px; font-style: inherit; text-align: center; border-width: 1px; border-style: solid; border-color: rgb(116, 118, 120) rgb(170, 170, 170); color: rgb(170, 0, 0); cursor: pointer; background-color: rgb(218, 220, 222);">WS Win Shares Per 48 Minutes
An estimate of the number of wins contributed by a player per 48 minutes (league average is approximately .100)" style="margin: 0px; padding: 3px; font-style: inherit; text-align: center; border-width: 1px; border-style: solid; border-color: rgb(116, 118, 120) rgb(116, 118, 120) rgb(116, 118, 120) rgb(170, 170, 170); color: rgb(170, 0, 0); cursor: pointer; background-color: rgb(218, 220, 222);">WS/48
1 Mark Eaton 28 UTA 32.0 32.0 78 0.410 82 34.3 9.7 11.3 1.5 0.4 5.6 .449 .712 5.4 .093
2 Sidney Moncrief 27 MIL 13.0 13.0 78 0.167 73 37.5 21.7 5.4 5.2 1.6 0.5 .483 .273 .828 11.2 .197
3 Paul Pressey 26 MIL 10.0 10.0 78 0.128 80 36.0 16.1 5.4 6.8 1.6 0.7 .517 .350 .758 9.6 .160
4 Michael Cooper 28 LAL 9.0 9.0 78 0.115 82 26.7 8.6 3.1 5.2 1.1 0.6 .465 .285 .865 4.6 .102
5 Maurice Cheeks 28 PHI 5.0 5.0 78 0.064 78 33.5 13.1 2.8 6.4 2.2 0.3 .570 .231 .879 9.0 .165
6 Dennis Johnson 30 BOS 3.0 3.0 78 0.038 80 37.2 15.7 4.0 6.8 1.2 0.5 .462 .269 .853 6.4 .103
7T T.R. Dunn 29 DEN 2.0 2.0 78 0.026 81 28.3 5.4 4.8 1.9 1.7 0.2 .489 .000 .724 4.4 .092
7T Micheal Ray Richardson 29 NJN 2.0 2.0 78 0.026 82 38.1 20.1 5.6 8.2 3.0 0.3 .469 .252 .767 8.7 .134
7T Danny Vranes 26 SEA 2.0 2.0 78 0.026 76 28.5 5.8 5.7 2.0 1.0 0.8 .463 .250 .528 1.8 .039

 

[superjohn]

McHale was 7 inches taller than Barkley and had freakishly long arms. Yeah, he had trouble against McHale.

I was waiting for him to bring out the Barkley quote, this guy is so freaking predictable.

 

[7774]

Well, if you believe the Goodellian twist jobs of what I said, I wouldn't agree that Bird is better than McHale either, because I never said that.

These guys act like this is some sort of crazy statement, that McHale at his best was better than Bird, but it's not like I'm the only one: Fellow NBA Hall of Famer Charles Barkley said of McHale, "Kevin McHale's the best player I played against because he was unstoppable offensively, and he gave me nightmares on defense."[7]

Barkley played against Bird as well.

During the year I'm referencing, McHale was the NBA Defensive Player of the Year, and 4th in MVP voting behind Magic, Bird, and Michael Jordan.

It is not a stretch at all to say he was unstoppable and played at a higher level than Bird ever played during a portion of that season. It's not even close over their careers, because McHale only came into his own that year. And after that, he broke his foot, played on it, and totally damaged his career. We have no idea how he would have played after that. Then again, Bird hurt his back in 1987 and he wasn't the same player ever again either.

But hey, maybe Chief is waiting for Barkley to show up in the Drummond room.

It really is crazy how dumb you are. I'd go get checked out.

Barkley is clearly talking about other power forwards he matched up against, since Barkley has said 1000 times at least that Michael Jordan is the greatest player to ever play basketball, and he played against Jordan many, many times

 

[sdhusky]

He is back to arguing against himself....

 

[upstater]

ummm, not quite. Not in the top 20 in MVP and not listed in Defensive player of the year.

1985-1986.

Defensive layer of the Year.
4th in MVP voting

 

[upstater]

I was waiting for him to bring out the Barkley quote, this guy is so freaking predictable.

Yeah Chuck Daly, Hubie Brown and Barkley are all idiots. What do they know. Listen to Superjohn's basketball acumen

 

[sdhusky]

1985-1986.

Defensive layer of the Year.
4th in MVP voting

Larry Bird was the MVP that year & was finals MVP despite not being "as good a McHale at his best"

Barkley said he already has LeBron in his all time top 10, but said he won’t ever put him in his top five of all time: Michael Jordan, Oscar Robertson, Wilt Chamberlain, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Bill Russell. On the next level is LeBron, Kobe Bryant, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird and Jerry West.​

 

[superjohn]

CB did cover Bird. This is because Bird was playing power forward up until 1985. The Celtics traded away several players from that 1984 team, and that's when Bird moved to small forward. So in Barkley's first year, he played SF to Bobby jones's PF. But Bird and Barkley had opposite career arcs, because as Bird moved to SF once the Celtics made their trades, Barkley moved from SF to PF after the older 76ers were traded away. I imagine with switches these guys were on each other and defending each other a lot. But again, McHale injured his achilles late in 86 and then broke his foot in 87. So I'm not even talking about that McHale.

We know the McHale you are talking about, 1985 McHale who was better than Bird and every other player until Jordan came along, despite Bird winning his second of three straight MVP's and McHale finishing outside the top 23 for MVP.

 

[sdhusky]

Yeah Chuck Daly, Hubie Brown and Barkley are all idiots. What do they know. Listen to Superjohn's basketball acumen

Barkley said he already has LeBron in his all time top 10, but said he won’t ever put him in his top five of all time: Michael Jordan, Oscar Robertson, Wilt Chamberlain, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Bill Russell. On the next level is LeBron, Kobe Bryant, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird and Jerry West.

 

[superjohn]

Yeah Chuck Daly, Hubie Brown and Barkley are all idiots. What do they know. Listen to Superjohn's basketball acumen

You are embarrassing yourself.

 

[superjohn]

Barkley said he already has LeBron in his all time top 10, but said he won’t ever put him in his top five of all time: Michael Jordan, Oscar Robertson, Wilt Chamberlain, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Bill Russell. On the next level is LeBron, Kobe Bryant, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird and Jerry West.

This guy is so dumb he actually believes Barkley thinks McHale was better than Bird.

 

[sdhusky]

This guy is so dumb he actually believes Barkley thinks McHale was better than Bird.

He doesn't know what side he is on or even what year he is arguing.

But it doesn't matter.

 

[sdhusky]

1985-1986.

Defensive layer of the Year.
4th in MVP voting

Oh, I figured you meant 86 because you wrote: "But again, McHale injured his achilles late in 86 and then broke his foot in 87. So I'm not even talking about that McHale."

 

[upstater]

Larry Bird was the MVP that year & was finals MVP despite not being "as good a McHale at his best"

Barkley said he already has LeBron in his all time top 10, but said he won’t ever put him in his top five of all time: Michael Jordan, Oscar Robertson, Wilt Chamberlain, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Bill Russell. On the next level is LeBron, Kobe Bryant, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird and Jerry West.​

I know you have a very thick skull, but I do not put McHale in my top 10 nor do I think McHale is better than Bird AND, McHale had more points & rebounds than Bird in that Finals I originally talked about, despite your bogus and erroneous stats.

 

[upstater]

Oh, I figured you meant 86 because you wrote: "But again, McHale injured his achilles late in 86 and then broke his foot in 87. So I'm not even talking about that McHale."

Yes, I'm talking about the McHale from midseason 1985 until late season 1986. And I used the timeline in each of my posts.

 

[upstater]

You are embarrassing yourself.

No, you are. You don't know more about basketball than Chuck Daly. I know your ego is super overblown, but don't be crazy.

 

[upstater]

We know the McHale you are talking about, 1985 McHale who was better than Bird and every other player until Jordan came along, despite Bird winning his second of three straight MVP's and McHale finishing outside the top 23 for MVP.

U can't read. You've proven that in the past. You do it again here. Same as the argument about Brady and his OLs. Despite having guys who walk off the street to play OL for the Patriots, he still puts up the state and the wins, and you'll still argue he has a great offensive line. Totally asinine.

 

[superjohn]

He doesn't know what side he is on or even what year he is arguing.

But it doesn't matter.

It was 1985 the entire time he was arguing it, McHale wasn't in the top 23 for MVP voting and wasn't in contention for defensive player of the year. Now he's changed it to 1986, McHale finished tied for 13th in MVP voting and wasn't in contention for defensive player of the year. He keeps changing the goalposts and he's still way off, this is really stupid.

 

[sdhusky]

Yes, I'm talking about the McHale from midseason 1985 until late season 1986. And I used the timeline in each of my posts.

You are lying. This is the first time you mentioned this timeline.

Liar.

 

[superjohn]

Dude I have directly quoted you a bunch of times. I've seen people not admitting they are wrong many times but this is getting ridiculous.