Deflate-gate one year ago, Science proves NFL wrong

[intlzncster]

I think it speaks for itself. You are heading into Chief territory and I'm not referring to Robert Parish.

There is a great Chief/Parish/upstater getting high smoking a peace pipe joke in there. I'm not with upstater on the Bird/McHale thing whatsoever.

 

[August_West]

God forbid Gronk parties. If you put up the numbers and performances he does, you get to party however much you want, no questions asked. It's not like he's out doing drugs, getting arrested, raping and beating chicks, or shooting himself in the foot.

Its a bad look. thats all. He's gotta fight for his right to paaaar-tay,
Just like the Dude last weekend, who had a poor 3 year old kid just out of the hospital in with a broken femur and a gofundme started by a family member to help defray medical costs.......................and then goes with his Brother to an all inclusive resort in Mexico to see three Phish shows. A bad look.
The Pats are the 3 year old, Kraft is the gofundme and Gronk is the deadbeat dad. Its a direct correlation.

 

[intlzncster]

Its a bad look. thats all. He's gotta fight for his right to paaaar-tay,
Just like the Dude last weekend, who had a poor 3 year old kid just out of the hospital in with a broken femur and a gofundme started by a family member to help defray medical costs........and then goes with his Brother to an all inclusive resort in Mexico to see three Phish shows. A bad look.
The Pats are the 3 year old, Kraft is the gofundme and Gronk is the deadbeat dad. Its a direct correlation.

Not going to lie, when you first busted out that analogy, I was gonna rip you for it. But the extended description made the joke. hahah

Here's a funny Belichick story on Gronk partying:

"While I was watching a training camp practice in between my own exercises, Coach Belichick was standing right next to me and said, ‘Rob, you are one of the hardest workers I’ve seen, and you’re always working hard when you’re here, but when you’re not here … I don’t know about your craziness off the field, the messing,’” the book says. “I started laughing and told him, ‘The fun stuff makes me grind harder, coach.’ He shook his head as he walked off and said, ‘Whatever works for you.’"

Presumably, that BB philosophy doesn't apply to doing PCP and killing a bunch of people.

 

[Husky25]

It didnt have to do with the total value of the cap since there wasn't one, but it had to do with new contracts not having lump sums in the first year. It was highly technical and had everything to do with the uncapped year. The gist was that there would have to be incremental increases in contracts signed that year by a certain %. And the fines for the Saints were not only cap space but money and draft picks.

Regardless, the whole point of this discussion is that the league wasn't sued. Not even the NFLPA could sue for that because they too signed away their rights.

If this was the case, why did the Skins' offense hinged around paying two players their guaranteed money. Haynesworth and DeAngelo Hall were already on the team. The Saints were not penalized a draft pick for the uncapped year. That was for bounty-____. The Saints punishment for the uncapped year is they did not get a pro rata share (approx. $1.6 million) increase in salary cap that they other 28 teams did.

The NFLPA did not sue because the pot from where the players were paid was made whole by the redistribution of the salary cap taken from the Cowboys ($10M) and Redskins($36M). $46M/28 teams = $1,642,857.14.

 

[HuskyHawk]

And as recently as the Kansas City game, for some reason the Chiefs headsets were broken intermittently during the game. Not the first time Patriot opponents had difficulties with their communications during important games.

But ignore that smoke there is no fire.

This happens at every stadium, and according to the NFL is no more common in Gillette than anywhere else. Please end this jealous nonsense. The practice and work harder than other teams, and play smarter. That's it. Nothing else. Anything else is excuses from fans of teams that don't want to put in the effort or lack the talent.

Here is the list of NFL cheaters. Denver Broncos are #1. Patriots rank 23rd.

 

[Husky25]

You gotta try to follow along better. If the rest of my post is irrelevant, then you're not following. We're talking about how Dallas, New Orleans and Washington didn't appeal. Why? Because teams don't appeal. So what's really irrelevant is your post. Actually, by saying there wasn't a rule, that reinforces my original point which was that teams don't appeal. If there was no rule violated, they have even less reason to appeal.

But the rule violated by Dallas was the 25% rule which prevent divergences in contracts from year to year for salary cap purposes. It's true the teams also colluded in not dumping contracts in an uncapped year (there was no rule against that) but there was a rule against signing players to big first-year contracts without corresponding later year contracts. Put it this way, the Patriots could have paid Brady that year $35 million. This wouldn't have violated the NFLs collusion to prevent salary dumping in 2010 (no rule against it), but it would have violated the rules against contract variance from year-to-year. Especially if Brady had taken a $7 million contract in his next year.

Redskins prepared

...

The Redskins inserted a player voidable clause, allowing Haynesworth to end his contract early. Due to Cap rules, the signing bonus following the voidable clause will not prorate through the remainder of the contract.

Haynesworth’s $21 million bonus last April (2011) that was restructured in the manner described above to have the entire amount count in 2010 with no accounting in future years. Thus, for Cap accounting, there is no remaining Cap hit on that money in future years and it allows the Redskins to trade Haynesworth without Cap consequences.

The Redskins did appeal. It was denied.

 

[upstater]

LOL.

That is an exact word-for-word quote. I didn't twist anything. I quoted you.

In fact, I can go back to that thread and bring a quote from me that says I believe Bird is a better payer than McHale. And I said that repeatedly.

 

[upstater]

I think it speaks for itself. You are heading into Chief territory and I'm not referring to Robert Parish.

You're already there. I'm sure you'll welcome me.

 

[upstater]

There is a great Chief/Parish/upstater getting high smoking a peace pipe joke in there. I'm not with upstater on the Bird/McHale thing whatsoever.

Well, if you believe the Goodellian twist jobs of what I said, I wouldn't agree that Bird is better than McHale either, because I never said that.

These guys act like this is some sort of crazy statement, that McHale at his best was better than Bird, but it's not like I'm the only one: Fellow NBA Hall of Famer Charles Barkley said of McHale, "Kevin McHale's the best player I played against because he was unstoppable offensively, and he gave me nightmares on defense."[7]

Barkley played against Bird as well.

During the year I'm referencing, McHale was the NBA Defensive Player of the Year, and 4th in MVP voting behind Magic, Bird, and Michael Jordan.

It is not a stretch at all to say he was unstoppable and played at a higher level than Bird ever played during a portion of that season. It's not even close over their careers, because McHale only came into his own that year. And after that, he broke his foot, played on it, and totally damaged his career. We have no idea how he would have played after that. Then again, Bird hurt his back in 1987 and he wasn't the same player ever again either.

But hey, maybe Chief is waiting for Barkley to show up in the Drummond room.

 

[Mots010]

Why? We don't have any affect on the game. I was more worried about the Steelers anyway. 1/2 a Roethlisburger worried me more than 2015 Manning.

Can the Broncos win? Sure. But I'm more than happy with the way things are setting up. If the Pats are healthy, particularly on defense (Collins/Hightower/Jones), I love their chances. If not, all bets are off. The Patriots are deep, but there is certain guys they can't live without: Brady/Gronk on offense and Hightower/Collins on defense



Are you kidding me? He was injured in the 3rd quarter. So he quit at the end of the first half?

I'm nitpicking, but he was injured with 2:31 left in the game. The 14 point lead had already evaporated to 4 points by then

 

[upstater]

If this was the case, why did the Skins' offense hinged around paying two players their guaranteed money. Haynesworth and DeAngelo Hall were already on the team. The Saints were not penalized a draft pick for the uncapped year. That was for bounty-____. The Saints punishment for the uncapped year is they did not get a pro rata share (approx. $1.6 million) increase in salary cap that they other 28 teams did.

The NFLPA did not sue because the pot from where the players were paid was made whole by the redistribution of the salary cap taken from the Cowboys ($10M) and Redskins($36M). $46M/28 teams = $1,642,857.14.

1. Signing bonus money is extended over the length of the contract. It's guaranteed money, but the rules state it is pro-rated.

2. You're confusing things. My original post on the question of appeals cited the Saints and Bountygate. Not uncapped years.

3. The NFLPA didn't sue because it had signed away the rights to sue over this in CBA negotiations. Just as Kraft and all the other owners did, which was my original point.

But think about it, when you have a player like Brady, why wouldn't you have paid him a ton of money that year? You know he is all about sacrificing pay for the team. You can simply pay him then, and it wouldn't have gone against the collusion against dumping unwanted contracts into the uncapped year. The reason why they didn't do it with Brady was that it was against the contract variance rules put specifically into place for an uncapped year. This wasn't about dumping players but mainly about signing new ones to front-heavy contracts.

 

[intlzncster]

The Redskins did appeal. It was denied.

Side note. Is the NFL appeal process the single dumbest thing ever? Without a guaranteed neutral third party arbiter, what's the point? The NFL never admits it is wrong. When the appeal goes to court, the NFL loses consistently. It's twilight zone stuff.

 

[sdhusky]

In fact, I can go back to that thread and bring a quote from me that says I believe Bird is a better payer than McHale. And I said that repeatedly.

That was the funniest part. You ended up arguing with yourself and seemed to be quite unaware of it.

 

[intlzncster]

These guys act like this is some sort of crazy statement, that McHale at his best was better than Bird, but it's not like I'm the only one: Fellow NBA Hall of Famer Charles Barkley said of McHale, "Kevin McHale's the best player I played against because he was unstoppable offensively, and he gave me nightmares on defense."[7] Barkley played against Bird as well.

I'm not going to jump into the fray, as I don't have enough interest in the argument, but the above statement could simply be Charles talking about the guys he directly faced up against on the court. McHale was a PF and Barkley and him probably went one on one a number of times. I'm willing to bet CB didn't spend a lot of time covering Bird and vice versa.

 

[Husky25]

3. The NFLPA didn't sue because it had signed away the rights to sue over this in CBA negotiations. Just as Kraft and all the other owners did, which was my original point.

But think about it, when you have a player like Brady, why wouldn't you have paid him a ton of money that year? You know he is all about sacrificing pay for the team. You can simply pay him then, and it wouldn't have gone against the collusion against dumping unwanted contracts into the uncapped year. The reason why they didn't do it with Brady was that it was against the contract variance rules put specifically into place for an uncapped year. This wasn't about dumping players but mainly about signing new ones to front-heavy contracts.

The NFLPA had to recourse to sue The Pot from which the players are paid was made whole by distributing the lost cap room by the 'Boys and 'Skins.

In one of the articles I linked, you can find it, it said every team dumped cap money. The most egregious were Wash, Dal, N.O., and Oak.

 

[upstater]

"He became the most difficult low-post player to defend -- once he made the catch -- in the history of the league," contended former NBA coach Hubie Brown in the Boston Globe. "He was totally unstoppable because of his quickness, diversification of moves and the long arms that gave him an angle to release the ball over a taller man or more explosive jumper."

http://www.nytimes.com/1985/05/27/sports/mchale-celtic-who-gives-rivals-fits.html

Published: May 27, 1985: ''ASK any coach,'' says Chuck Daly of the Detroit Pistons, ''and he'll tell you that the first thing on any Celtic scouting report is to watch out for McHale, not Larry Bird.''

If that sounds surprising, it shouldn't be. After four mediocre playoff seasons, Kevin McHale, the 6-foot-10-inch forward who earns $1 million a year, has emerged as a major force in the Boston Celtics' bid to become the first team since 1969 to repeat as champion."

Emphasis on May 27, 1985 and the time of McHale's emergence. March to June 1985, then the 1986 season until he hurt his Achilles. A very short period of time.

That being said, Charles Barkley, Hubie Brown, Chuck Daly and even Larry Bird do not disagree with what I said earlier.

 

[superjohn]

Well, if you believe the Goodellian twist jobs of what I said, I wouldn't agree that Bird is better than McHale either, because I never said that.

These guys act like this is some sort of crazy statement, that McHale at his best was better than Bird, but it's not like I'm the only one: Fellow NBA Hall of Famer Charles Barkley said of McHale, "Kevin McHale's the best player I played against because he was unstoppable offensively, and he gave me nightmares on defense."[7]

Barkley played against Bird as well.

During the year I'm referencing, McHale was the NBA Defensive Player of the Year, and 4th in MVP voting behind Magic, Bird, and Michael Jordan.

It is not a stretch at all to say he was unstoppable and played at a higher level than Bird ever played during a portion of that season. It's not even close over their careers, because McHale only came into his own that year. And after that, he broke his foot, played on it, and totally damaged his career. We have no idea how he would have played after that. Then again, Bird hurt his back in 1987 and he wasn't the same player ever again either.

But hey, maybe Chief is waiting for Barkley to show up in the Drummond room.

You just keep digging, the year you've been referencing the whole time is 1985, where Bird was the MVP and McHale wasn't even in the top 23 MVP vote getters and wasn't in the running for defensive player of the year. You are the only one on your island and you look more and more foolish with each post on this matter.

 

[sdhusky]

I'm not going to jump into the fray, as I don't have enough interest in the argument, but the above statement could simply be Charles talking about the guys he directly faced up against on the court. McHale was a PF and Barkley and him probably went one on one a number of times. I'm willing to bet CB didn't spend a lot of time covering Bird and vice versa.

McHale was 7 inches taller than Barkley and had freakishly long arms. Yeah, he had trouble against McHale.

 

[intlzncster]

I'm nitpicking, but he was injured with 2:31 left in the game. The 14 point lead had already evaporated to 4 points by then

My bad. Not nitpicking at all. Good call.

 

[upstater]

I'm not going to jump into the fray, as I don't have enough interest in the argument, but the above statement could simply be Charles talking about the guys he directly faced up against on the court. McHale was a PF and Barkley and him probably went one on one a number of times. I'm willing to bet CB didn't spend a lot of time covering Bird and vice versa.

CB did cover Bird. This is because Bird was playing power forward up until 1985. The Celtics traded away several players from that 1984 team, and that's when Bird moved to small forward. So in Barkley's first year, he had him. Also remember that Barkley switched to SF to Bobby jones's PF. Erving played both SF and SG with Andrew Toney. But Bird and Barkley had opposite career arcs, because as Bird moved to SF once the Celtics made their trades, Barkley moved permanently to only PF after the older 76ers were sent away. I imagine with switches these guys were on each other and defending each other a lot. But again, McHale injured his achilles late in 86 and then broke his foot in 87. So I'm not even talking about that McHale.

 

[sdhusky]

During the year I'm referencing, McHale was the NBA Defensive Player of the Year, and 4th in MVP voting behind Magic, Bird, and Michael Jordan.

ummm, not quite. Not in the top 20 in MVP and not listed in Defensive player of the year.

1984-85 NBA Awards Voting
Most Valuable Player

Voting Per Game Shooting Advanced
Rank Player Age Tm First Pts Won Pts Max Share G MP PTS TRB AST STL BLK FG% 3P% FT% Win Shares
An estimate of the number of wins contributed by a player." style="margin: 0px; padding: 3px; font-style: inherit; text-align: center; border-width: 1px; border-style: solid; border-color: rgb(116, 118, 120) rgb(170, 170, 170); color: rgb(170, 0, 0); cursor: pointer; background-color: rgb(218, 220, 222);">WS Win Shares Per 48 Minutes
An estimate of the number of wins contributed by a player per 48 minutes (league average is approximately .100)" style="margin: 0px; padding: 3px; font-style: inherit; text-align: center; border-width: 1px; border-style: solid; border-color: rgb(116, 118, 120) rgb(116, 118, 120) rgb(116, 118, 120) rgb(170, 170, 170); color: rgb(170, 0, 0); cursor: pointer; background-color: rgb(218, 220, 222);">WS/48
1 Larry Bird 28 BOS 73.0 763.0 780 0.978 80 39.5 28.7 10.5 6.6 1.6 1.2 .522 .427 .882 15.7 .238
2 Magic Johnson 25 LAL 1.0 264.0 780 0.338 77 36.1 18.3 6.2 12.6 1.5 0.3 .561 .189 .843 12.7 .220
3 Moses Malone 29 PHI 0.0 218.0 780 0.279 79 37.4 24.6 13.1 1.6 0.8 1.6 .469 .000 .815 11.9 .193
4 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 37 LAL 0.0 206.0 780 0.264 79 33.3 22.0 7.9 3.2 0.8 2.1 .599 .000 .732 11.2 .204
5 Terry Cummings 23 MIL 2.0 138.0 780 0.177 79 34.5 23.6 9.1 2.9 1.5 0.8 .495 .000 .741 10.7 .189
6 Michael Jordan 21 CHI 2.0 134.0 780 0.172 82 38.3 28.2 6.5 5.9 2.4 0.8 .515 .173 .845 14.0 .213
7 Bernard King 28 NYK 0.0 70.0 780 0.090 55 37.5 32.9 5.8 3.7 1.3 0.3 .530 .100 .772 7.1 .166
8 Sidney Moncrief 27 MIL 0.0 65.0 780 0.083 73 37.5 21.7 5.4 5.2 1.6 0.5 .483 .273 .828 11.2 .197
9 Isiah Thomas 23 DET 0.0 63.0 780 0.081 81 38.1 21.2 4.5 13.9 2.3 0.3 .458 .257 .809 11.2 .173
10 Ralph Sampson 24 HOU 0.0 26.0 780 0.033 82 37.6 22.1 10.4 2.7 1.0 2.0 .502 .000 .676 6.2 .096
11 Calvin Natt 28 DEN 0.0 22.0 780 0.028 78 34.1 23.3 7.8 3.1 1.0 0.4 .546 .000 .793 10.2 .185
12T Alex English 31 DEN 0.0 12.0 780 0.015 81 36.1 27.9 5.7 4.2 1.2 0.6 .518 .200 .829 8.9 .146
12T Hakeem Olajuwon 22 HOU 0.0 12.0 780 0.015 82 35.5 20.6 11.9 1.4 1.2 2.7 .538 .613 10.2 .168
14 Micheal Ray Richardson 29 NJN 0.0 11.0 780 0.014 82 38.1 20.1 5.6 8.2 3.0 0.3 .469 .252 .767 8.7 .134
15 Andrew Toney 27 PHI 0.0 5.0 780 0.006 70 32.0 17.8 2.5 5.2 0.9 0.3 .492 .371 .862 5.5 .118
16 Mark Eaton 28 UTA 0.0 4.0 780 0.005 82 34.3 9.7 11.3 1.5 0.4 5.6 .449 .712 5.4 .093
17T Paul Pressey 26 MIL 0.0 3.0 780 0.004 80 36.0 16.1 5.4 6.8 1.6 0.7 .517 .350 .758 9.6 .160
17T Jack Sikma 29 SEA 0.0 3.0 780 0.004 68 35.3 18.5 10.6 4.2 1.2 1.3 .489 .200 .852 8.3 .166
17T Dominique Wilkins 25 ATL 0.0 3.0 780 0.004 81 37.3 27.4 6.9 2.5 1.7 0.7 .451 .309 .806 7.6 .121
20T World B. Free 31 CLE 0.0 2.0 780 0.003 71 31.7 22.5 3.0 4.5 1.1 0.2 .459 .368 .749 6.0 .127
20T Purvis Short 27 GSW 0.0 2.0 780 0.003 78 39.5 28.0 5.1 3.0 1.5 0.3 .460 .313 .817 6.2 .097
22T Clyde Drexler 22 POR 0.0 1.0 780 0.001 80 31.9 17.2 6.0 5.5 2.2 0.9 .494 .216 .759 7.5 .141
22T Julius Erving 34 PHI 0.0 1.0 780 0.001 78 32.5 20.0 5.3 3.0 1.7 1.4 .494 .214 .765 7.6 .144

Defensive Player of the Year

Voting Per Game Shooting Advanced
Rank Player Age Tm First Pts Won Pts Max Share G MP PTS TRB AST STL BLK FG% 3P% FT% Win Shares
An estimate of the number of wins contributed by a player." style="margin: 0px; padding: 3px; font-style: inherit; text-align: center; border-width: 1px; border-style: solid; border-color: rgb(116, 118, 120) rgb(170, 170, 170); color: rgb(170, 0, 0); cursor: pointer; background-color: rgb(218, 220, 222);">WS Win Shares Per 48 Minutes
An estimate of the number of wins contributed by a player per 48 minutes (league average is approximately .100)" style="margin: 0px; padding: 3px; font-style: inherit; text-align: center; border-width: 1px; border-style: solid; border-color: rgb(116, 118, 120) rgb(116, 118, 120) rgb(116, 118, 120) rgb(170, 170, 170); color: rgb(170, 0, 0); cursor: pointer; background-color: rgb(218, 220, 222);">WS/48
1 Mark Eaton 28 UTA 32.0 32.0 78 0.410 82 34.3 9.7 11.3 1.5 0.4 5.6 .449 .712 5.4 .093
2 Sidney Moncrief 27 MIL 13.0 13.0 78 0.167 73 37.5 21.7 5.4 5.2 1.6 0.5 .483 .273 .828 11.2 .197
3 Paul Pressey 26 MIL 10.0 10.0 78 0.128 80 36.0 16.1 5.4 6.8 1.6 0.7 .517 .350 .758 9.6 .160
4 Michael Cooper 28 LAL 9.0 9.0 78 0.115 82 26.7 8.6 3.1 5.2 1.1 0.6 .465 .285 .865 4.6 .102
5 Maurice Cheeks 28 PHI 5.0 5.0 78 0.064 78 33.5 13.1 2.8 6.4 2.2 0.3 .570 .231 .879 9.0 .165
6 Dennis Johnson 30 BOS 3.0 3.0 78 0.038 80 37.2 15.7 4.0 6.8 1.2 0.5 .462 .269 .853 6.4 .103
7T T.R. Dunn 29 DEN 2.0 2.0 78 0.026 81 28.3 5.4 4.8 1.9 1.7 0.2 .489 .000 .724 4.4 .092
7T Micheal Ray Richardson 29 NJN 2.0 2.0 78 0.026 82 38.1 20.1 5.6 8.2 3.0 0.3 .469 .252 .767 8.7 .134
7T Danny Vranes 26 SEA 2.0 2.0 78 0.026 76 28.5 5.8 5.7 2.0 1.0 0.8 .463 .250 .528 1.8 .039

 

[superjohn]

McHale was 7 inches taller than Barkley and had freakishly long arms. Yeah, he had trouble against McHale.

I was waiting for him to bring out the Barkley quote, this guy is so freaking predictable.

 

[7774]

Well, if you believe the Goodellian twist jobs of what I said, I wouldn't agree that Bird is better than McHale either, because I never said that.

These guys act like this is some sort of crazy statement, that McHale at his best was better than Bird, but it's not like I'm the only one: Fellow NBA Hall of Famer Charles Barkley said of McHale, "Kevin McHale's the best player I played against because he was unstoppable offensively, and he gave me nightmares on defense."[7]

Barkley played against Bird as well.

During the year I'm referencing, McHale was the NBA Defensive Player of the Year, and 4th in MVP voting behind Magic, Bird, and Michael Jordan.

It is not a stretch at all to say he was unstoppable and played at a higher level than Bird ever played during a portion of that season. It's not even close over their careers, because McHale only came into his own that year. And after that, he broke his foot, played on it, and totally damaged his career. We have no idea how he would have played after that. Then again, Bird hurt his back in 1987 and he wasn't the same player ever again either.

But hey, maybe Chief is waiting for Barkley to show up in the Drummond room.

It really is crazy how dumb you are. I'd go get checked out.

Barkley is clearly talking about other power forwards he matched up against, since Barkley has said 1000 times at least that Michael Jordan is the greatest player to ever play basketball, and he played against Jordan many, many times

 

[sdhusky]

He is back to arguing against himself....

 

[upstater]

ummm, not quite. Not in the top 20 in MVP and not listed in Defensive player of the year.

1985-1986.

Defensive layer of the Year.
4th in MVP voting

 

[upstater]

I was waiting for him to bring out the Barkley quote, this guy is so freaking predictable.

Yeah Chuck Daly, Hubie Brown and Barkley are all idiots. What do they know. Listen to Superjohn's basketball acumen

 

[sdhusky]

1985-1986.

Defensive layer of the Year.
4th in MVP voting

Larry Bird was the MVP that year & was finals MVP despite not being "as good a McHale at his best"

Barkley said he already has LeBron in his all time top 10, but said he won’t ever put him in his top five of all time: Michael Jordan, Oscar Robertson, Wilt Chamberlain, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Bill Russell. On the next level is LeBron, Kobe Bryant, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird and Jerry West.​

 

[superjohn]

CB did cover Bird. This is because Bird was playing power forward up until 1985. The Celtics traded away several players from that 1984 team, and that's when Bird moved to small forward. So in Barkley's first year, he played SF to Bobby jones's PF. But Bird and Barkley had opposite career arcs, because as Bird moved to SF once the Celtics made their trades, Barkley moved from SF to PF after the older 76ers were traded away. I imagine with switches these guys were on each other and defending each other a lot. But again, McHale injured his achilles late in 86 and then broke his foot in 87. So I'm not even talking about that McHale.

We know the McHale you are talking about, 1985 McHale who was better than Bird and every other player until Jordan came along, despite Bird winning his second of three straight MVP's and McHale finishing outside the top 23 for MVP.

 

[sdhusky]

Yeah Chuck Daly, Hubie Brown and Barkley are all idiots. What do they know. Listen to Superjohn's basketball acumen

Barkley said he already has LeBron in his all time top 10, but said he won’t ever put him in his top five of all time: Michael Jordan, Oscar Robertson, Wilt Chamberlain, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Bill Russell. On the next level is LeBron, Kobe Bryant, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird and Jerry West.

 

[superjohn]

Yeah Chuck Daly, Hubie Brown and Barkley are all idiots. What do they know. Listen to Superjohn's basketball acumen

You are embarrassing yourself.