Death penalty impact?

[intlzncster]

Best penalty for Louisville would be no scholarship athletes for a decade. Zero. As long as they are not wothout scholarships, a crooked coach like Pitino could have them back up in no time (look how quickly Penn State football has returned to national prominence). Gotta cripple the program. So ten years without a dime towards athletics.

You might as well cancel Louisville basketball forever. I mean, I want some harsh sanctions, but with no scholarships, no players are coming there. No player who can dribble a basketball is going to pay Louisville, given it's stellar academics, for the right to wear a jersey and get an 'education'.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

I remember in the 80s when Kentucky was in big trouble. "This will kill their programs forever." A lot of people said that. How did that work out? Louisville needs a stiff punishment. If is cripples basketball for 5 years or so, so be it. But it is an institution with a lot of fans and a deep love of sports. They would rise again.

 

[businesslawyer]

Somebody needs to explain to me how paying players would solve this problem. I suppose if you are paying them huge contracts, basically NBA level, it works but if you are paying something less or comparable to d-league wages (max +/- 26000, lowest $19500) and you get offered $150000 to go to University 6 you still take it. The second problem you have is that in deciding to pay players you have for all intents and purposes created a smallish minor league of teams that can afford to pay. Maybe 60-70. So you've ended the NCAA tournament because the MAAC champ ain't playing a pro team and it isn't paying its guys either. You also have title IX issues. Since you can't treat women differently you need to pay the women's team and if you pay football you need to pay 85-100 women too. What is the going rate for Women's rowing? It has been clear for ages now that revenues don't figure into the equation when it comes to Title IX implications. Some good ol' boys tried that 20 years ago arguing that football deserved more scholarships because it generated more revenues than women's tennis and it was shot down hard.

There are a huge number of other issues but the bottom line is that paying players doesn't begin to address the problem of illegal payments.

You are dead on correct. Paying all players any equal amount will not solve the problem, no matter how high the number is, because the players who are clearly worth more will still be valued and have actual value.

 

[UConnJim]

End of the day, it is time for the university presidents to lead and make decisions about the future of college athletics, not the NCAA, ADs, coaches, media companies, sportswear companies, professional sports leagues, agents,....

 

[HuskiesAllDay]

You are dead on correct. Paying all players any equal amount will not solve the problem, no matter how high the number is, because the players who are clearly worth more will still be valued and have actual value.

And the apparel companies will still want the best kids playing for the schools they sponsor while in college and then signing with their brand when they go pro. Whether the kid is being paid while at school doesn't change this fact.

 

[Guapo]

You are dead on correct. Paying all players any equal amount will not solve the problem, no matter how high the number is, because the players who are clearly worth more will still be valued and have actual value.

Let them get paid to endorse products and to appear on tv, at birthdays, bar mitvahs etc.

I have yet to hear an argument against this.

 

[Redding Husky]

I think Louisville should be very nervous about the SMU example. Every SWC school got busted for cheating at the same time as SMU. The difference with SMU was that it's cheating was more blatant, and it was deemed expendable while Texas and Texas A&M were not.

And the Dallas media gladly highlighted SMU's errors, whereas the media in Austin and Houston ignored what Texas and A&M did.

Eric Dickerson used to drive around SMU with a Pontiac Trans Am that A&M bought him during recruiting.

 

[AZHuskiePop]

SMU did not get the full death penalty which would have shut down the football program for 3 years. I think SMU football got shut down for 1 year, but the school recognized that they could not really field a football team in year 2, so they shut it down in year 2 as well. And, in their second game back from the death penalty, they beat UConn 31-30 at SMU. In basketball, you can recover from the death penalty quickly, but you can't in football.

UConn was decent Div 1AA at the time or what we now call FCS ?
The game was televised ,apparently there was morbid national interest,we actually got jobbed on the road as it was a pathetic SMU team with limited Scholarship Players. SMU even without the death penalty might not have survived when the old SW conference merged with the Big 8.
TCU , and Houston were purged along with them as ESPN only wanted 4 teams from Texas
Texas , and AM were locks
Baylor and Tech somehow made it in. Those are head scratchers but Im sure there was plenty of politics involved.
Both TCU and SMU had more football success than either and I believe Houston only got in the SW conference when Arkansas left and was always a step child.
I’m doing this from memory so I might have left someone out.

 

[AZHuskiePop]

And the Dallas media gladly highlighted SMU's errors, whereas the media in Austin and Houston ignored what Texas and A&M did.

Eric Dickerson used to drive around SMU with a Pontiac Trans Am that A&M bought him during recruiting.

That’s football so it doesn’t count.
Setiosly SMU wounds were self inflicted
When the story broke that certain players were receiving compensation and penalized for, the full extent of the players was not revealed. Rather than come clean and stop the practice they chose to continue paying those other players to secure their silence

 

[TouchdownHusky]

You might as well cancel Louisville basketball forever. I mean, I want some harsh sanctions, but with no scholarships, no players are coming there. No player who can dribble a basketball is going to pay Louisville, given it's stellar academics, for the right to wear a jersey and get an 'education'.

That'd be fine with me. The way I see it is they are in UConn's rightful place in the ACC. They cheated to get there. They have prospered, UConn has regressed from the program that was growing steadily (Big East cchampionships, Fiesta Bowl) as a result of not receiving a spot in a P5 conference.

 

[Hans Sprungfeld]

You realize that Louis-vile is pretty much an athletic department with some classrooms for compliance purposes. Killing athletics for a decade kills the school. Not that it isn't deserved.

I know it seems hard to believe, but UofL's movement from being America's first municipal owned university to a state-affiliated research university with a full complement of professional schools has been marked by a *rise*in ranking to USN&WR #165, with greater ambitions. Increased emphasis on football was likely a vehicle to increase exposure and acquire support for the institution. Massive state financial commitment and basketball fueled similar ambitions for UConn, and Conference Realignment has had a huge impact with things continuing to be unsettled. However they did it, UofL out maneuvered UConn, but things are precarious through higher education and big-time college sports.

The Universities bearing the names of Buffalo, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, as well as Temple, had to endure dashed hopes in earlier times when they could not maintain private status. Miami, Southern Cal, George Washington, Northeastern, and NY has dramatically raised their profiles by leveraging their locations in desirable urban metropolises. Louisville, Memphis, and Houston are playing catchup. Over the same span of time UConn, Florida, Georgia come immediately to mind as schools less favored 40-50 years ago, but now seen quite differently.

Time will tell whether the adage, "The only bad publicity is no publicity" will apply to Louisville. Things look pretty bad right now from many angles, but they are a civic presence in a surprisingly interesting and growing city.

 

[Redding Husky]

That’s football so it doesn’t count.
Setiosly SMU wounds were self inflicted
When the story broke that certain players were receiving compensation and penalized for, the full extent of the players was not revealed. Rather than come clean and stop the practice they chose to continue paying those other players to secure their silence

And Louisville's wounds aren't self-inflicted?

 

[UConnNick]

End of the day, it is time for the university presidents to lead and make decisions about the future of college athletics, not the NCAA, ADs, coaches, media companies, sportswear companies, professional sports leagues, agents,....

University presidents are the reason we now have this unprecedented mess on our hands. Since they took over administration of the NCAA in the late 1980's we've been on the pathway to the current situation. Their insatiable greed has brought us to this point. And with the mega dollars now involved, their athletic departments are addicted to the vast sums of money being thrown around. Expecting them all to suddenly get religion and clean up the mess they've created is far fetched. If they cut off their seemingly unlimited cash printing machine they will be forced to drastically cut back their athletics programs across the board. With many states now cutting back budgets for higher education funding, they've got nowhere else to go to get the kind of money they've been reaping from this system they've created.

 

[freescooter]

I do think you need to cripple the program if only as a warning. Whether it's 5 years or 50 I honestly don't care. But The NCAA needs to come down like a ton of bricks. If not the death penalty for a year, at a minimum they need a multi-year tourney ban, significant scholarship reductions recruiting restrictions and a limit on number of games per season for a few seasons. Start at 18 and gradually add games over 3-4 years. In a way that would allow the NCAA to significantly hurt them without a full on death penalty which I'm guessing the NCAA will be loathe to impose. I'd also ban tv appearances for at least a year.

 

[UConnNick]

UConn was decent Div 1AA at the time or what we now call FCS ?
The game was televised ,apparently there was morbid national interest,we actually got jobbed on the road as it was a pathetic SMU team with limited Scholarship Players. SMU even without the death penalty might not have survived when the old SW conference merged with the Big 8.
TCU , and Houston were purged along with them as ESPN only wanted 4 teams from Texas
Texas , and AM were locks
Baylor and Tech somehow made it in. Those are head scratchers but Im sure there was plenty of politics involved.
Both TCU and SMU had more football success than either and I believe Houston only got in the SW conference when Arkansas left and was always a step child.
I’m doing this from memory so I might have left someone out.

Houston joined the SWC in 1976, many years before Arkansas left the conference in 1991. Houston actually won the SWC championship and beat Maryland in the Cotton Bowl during their inaugural SWC season. I think they finished ranked No. 3 or 4 in the country.

Regardless of whether or not SMU might have been able to maneuver its way into the B12 when the SWC broke up in 1995, the perception is that the death penalty eliminated any possibility they may have had to do that at the time. They were a doormat in the SWC from 1989 to 1995. They quit playing their home games at the Cotton Bowl since they had no fanbase left and likely couldn't afford to pay the rent if only 15k were going to show up for most of their games. Conference realignment did ultimately kill their football program permanently, but the death penalty was the catalyst that sent them hurtling toward that downward spiral.

Baylor made the B12 cut because then Texas Governor Ann Richards was an alum. That was a political deal she helped them make.

 

[UConnJim]

Houston joined the SWC in 1976, many years before Arkansas left the conference in 1991. Houston actually won the SWC championship and beat Maryland in the Cotton Bowl during their inaugural SWC season. I think they finished ranked No. 3 or 4 in the country.

Regardless of whether or not SMU might have been able to maneuver its way into the B12 when the SWC broke up in 1995, the perception is that the death penalty eliminated any possibility they may have had to do that at the time. They were a doormat in the SWC from 1989 to 1995. They quit playing their home games at the Cotton Bowl since they had no fanbase left and likely couldn't afford to pay the rent if only 15k were going to show up for most of their games. Conference realignment did ultimately kill their football program permanently, but the death penalty was the catalyst that sent them hurtling toward that downward spiral.

Baylor made the B12 cut because then Texas Governor Ann Richards was an alum. That was a political deal she helped them make.

Actually, SMU was playing their games at Texas Stadium when the death penalty struck. If they didn't have a big opponent like Texas or A&M, they would attract 20k to 30k to games before the death penalty. After the death penalty, they did play a game per year in the Cotton Bowl, but they played most games on campus.

The teams that got left behind in the Big 12 conference formation were the smaller schools with small fanbases. Baylor won the last Big 12 spot from the SWC due to politics, but SMU, TCU, Houston, and Baylor didn't have big fanbases or much recent success in football.

 

[Redding Husky]

Houston joined the SWC in 1976, many years before Arkansas left the conference in 1991. Houston actually won the SWC championship and beat Maryland in the Cotton Bowl during their inaugural SWC season. I think they finished ranked No. 3 or 4 in the country.

Regardless of whether or not SMU might have been able to maneuver its way into the B12 when the SWC broke up in 1995, the perception is that the death penalty eliminated any possibility they may have had to do that at the time. They were a doormat in the SWC from 1989 to 1995. They quit playing their home games at the Cotton Bowl since they had no fanbase left and likely couldn't afford to pay the rent if only 15k were going to show up for most of their games. Conference realignment did ultimately kill their football program permanently, but the death penalty was the catalyst that sent them hurtling toward that downward spiral.

Baylor made the B12 cut because then Texas Governor Ann Richards was an alum. That was a political deal she helped them make.

Correct about Ann Richards. She forced Baylor in even though they had nowhere near the football tradition of SMU.

 

[Redding Husky]

Actually, SMU was playing their games at Texas Stadium when the death penalty struck. If they didn't have a big opponent like Texas or A&M, they would attract 20k to 30k to games before the death penalty. After the death penalty, they did play a game per year in the Cotton Bowl, but they played most games on campus.

The teams that got left behind in the Big 12 conference formation were the smaller schools with small fanbases. Baylor won the last Big 12 spot from the SWC due to politics, but SMU, TCU, Houston, and Baylor didn't have big fanbases or much recent success in football.

SMU finished #2 in 1982, the only undefeated college team.

 

[Redding Husky]

I know it seems hard to believe, but UofL's movement from being America's first municipal owned university to a state-affiliated research university with a full complement of professional schools has been marked by a *rise*in ranking to USN&WR #165, with greater ambitions. Increased emphasis on football was likely a vehicle to increase exposure and acquire support for the institution. Massive state financial commitment and basketball fueled similar ambitions for UConn, and Conference Realignment has had a huge impact with things continuing to be unsettled. However they did it, UofL out maneuvered UConn, but things are precarious through higher education and big-time college sports.

The Universities bearing the names of Buffalo, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, as well as Temple, had to endure dashed hopes in earlier times when they could not maintain private status. Miami, Southern Cal, George Washington, Northeastern, and NY has dramatically raised their profiles by leveraging their locations in desirable urban metropolises. Louisville, Memphis, and Houston are playing catchup. Over the same span of time UConn, Florida, Georgia come immediately to mind as schools less favored 40-50 years ago, but now seen quite differently.

Time will tell whether the adage, "The only bad publicity is no publicity" will apply to Louisville. Things look pretty bad right now from many angles, but they are a civic presence in a surprisingly interesting and growing city.

What Louisville has done is impressive, but it's been without pro sports competition. UConn has also grown, but with about 20 professional franchises within a reasonable drive, located in the Athens and Sparta of American professional sports (NY and Boston).

 

[CL82]

I know it seems hard to believe, but UofL's movement from being America's first municipal owned university to a state-affiliated research university with a full complement of professional schools has been marked by a *rise*in ranking to USN&WR #165, with greater ambitions. Increased emphasis on football was likely a vehicle to increase exposure and acquire support for the institution. Massive state financial commitment and basketball fueled similar ambitions for UConn, and Conference Realignment has had a huge impact with things continuing to be unsettled. However they did it, UofL out maneuvered UConn, but things are precarious through higher education and big-time college sports.

The Universities bearing the names of Buffalo, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, as well as Temple, had to endure dashed hopes in earlier times when they could not maintain private status. Miami, Southern Cal, George Washington, Northeastern, and NY has dramatically raised their profiles by leveraging their locations in desirable urban metropolises. Louisville, Memphis, and Houston are playing catchup. Over the same span of time UConn, Florida, Georgia come immediately to mind as schools less favored 40-50 years ago, but now seen quite differently.

Time will tell whether the adage, "The only bad publicity is no publicity" will apply to Louisville. Things look pretty bad right now from many angles, but they are a civic presence in a surprisingly interesting and growing city.

In your opinion could Louisville survive 10 years without an athletic department?

 

[AZHuskiePop]

Houston joined the SWC in 1976, many years before Arkansas left the conference in 1991. Houston actually won the SWC championship and beat Maryland in the Cotton Bowl during their inaugural SWC season. I think they finished ranked No. 3 or 4 in the country.

Regardless of whether or not SMU might have been able to maneuver its way into the B12 when the SWC broke up in 1995, the perception is that the death penalty eliminated any possibility they may have had to do that at the time. They were a doormat in the SWC from 1989 to 1995. They quit playing their home games at the Cotton Bowl since they had no fanbase left and likely couldn't afford to pay the rent if only 15k were going to show up for most of their games. Conference realignment did ultimately kill their football program permanently, but the death penalty was the catalyst that sent them hurtling toward that downward spiral.

Baylor made the B12 cut because then Texas Governor Ann Richards was an alum. That was a political deal she helped them make.

Thanks my memory of Houston actually being in the SWC is pretty vague.
I remember them as an independent , they we’re always an offensive juggernaut that didn’t play much D . Everyone of there games was a shootout.
I was an intense college football fan in the 50,60 ,maybe even into the 70’s ,
but kind of became a casual to very casual fan after that.
I did play a small role in ESPN’s college football start but that’s another story.
Who could forget Ann Richards ,hard to believe she was a Baylor grad

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Actually, SMU was playing their games at Texas Stadium when the death penalty struck. If they didn't have a big opponent like Texas or A&M, they would attract 20k to 30k to games before the death penalty. After the death penalty, they did play a game per year in the Cotton Bowl, but they played most games on campus.

The teams that got left behind in the Big 12 conference formation were the smaller schools with small fanbases. Baylor won the last Big 12 spot from the SWC due to politics, but SMU, TCU, Houston, and Baylor didn't have big fanbases or much recent success in football.

Houston was very successful, and every bit as dirty as SMU. They did survive some pretty serious sanctions from the Bill Yeoman era, and Jack Pardee leveraged his U of H job into an NFL gig. Houston may have been taken to the Big 12 instead of Baylor if not for Ann Richards.

 

[UConnNick]

Thanks my memory of Houston actually being in the SWC is pretty vague.
I remember them as an independent , they we’re always an offensive juggernaut that didn’t play much D . Everyone of there games was a shootout.
I was an intense college football fan in the 50,60 ,maybe even into the 70’s ,
but kind of became a casual to very casual fan after that.
I did play a small role in ESPN’s college football start but that’s another story.
Who could forget Ann Richards ,hard to believe she was a Baylor grad

You're right, it doesn't make much sense that Ann was a Baylor grad, considering her fondness for adult beverages.

Houston was known as an offensive team in the 60's and 70's because their head coach at that time was Bill Yeoman, who is credited with inventing the veer offense. But back then their defense was pretty good as well. You may be thinking of the era after Yeoman left during the Jack Pardee/John Jenkins regimes in the late 80's/early 90's when they utilized the run-and-shoot offense. They didn't need much defense during those years because they scored insanely on offense, producing Heisman winner Andre Ware and David Klingler at QB. They beat Texas one year 66-15.

 

[Mr. French]

Let them get paid to endorse products and to appear on tv, at birthdays, bar mitvahs etc.

I have yet to hear an argument against this.

I guess, off the top of my head, the "slippery slope" argument where they don't want so-called amateurism being worn down further and further.

Not that I agree with that, it's how I'd guess the argument sounds.

 

[freescooter]

Louisville could certainly survive without its athletic programs. It is a pretty large university with 22000 students, a highly respected medical school and a less respected but solid law school. It is the undergraduate programs that are, let's say unimpressive. You fill out the forms right and you get accepted. It will never earn the nickname the Harvard of the Upper Southeast. That's for sure.

 

[Guapo]

I guess, off the top of my head, the "slippery slope" argument where they don't want so-called amateurism being worn down further and further.

Not that I agree with that, it's how I'd guess the argument sounds.

I agree.

It's also an extreamly dumb argument.

 

[Travelman6]

Shouldn't we wait for it to happen before discussing the impact? Otherwise, IMO, it is just noise. I absolutely hope it happens, Lville is run by a lot of people with poor moral and ethical standing, but lets just wait and see.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

We aren't seeing momentum for the Death Penalty for Louisville from the sports media yet. If they aren't saying it, that means their contacts at the schools aren't saying it. There are a lot of reasons that might be driving this, from sympathy for Louisville, to fear of a precedent being set when all of them haveven dirty laundry to worry about, to circling the wagons. We don't know yet.

 

[blue93]

We aren't seeing momentum for the Death Penalty for Louisville from the sports media yet. If they aren't saying it, that means their contacts at the schools aren't saying it. There are a lot of reasons that might be driving this, from sympathy for Louisville, to fear of a precedent being set when all of them haveven dirty laundry to worry about, to circling the wagons. We don't know yet.

Personally I think it has more to do with the unpredictability of the NCAA. There's zero consistency when it comes to the punishments that they hand out, so I think everybody's taking the wait and see approach.

 

[freescooter]

Plus the NCAA hasn't really gotten its head around this yet. It is still an "emerging" scandal. This is closer to the 1950s gambling scandal than the SMU one. It involved lots of players from lots of schools. Kentucky had its program shut down for a year. I think NYU and City both did too.