Copa America Centenario Quarterfinals

[meyers7]

Well the force used was negligible, there wasn't even contact. It should have been a yellow, but I am sure the ref didn't really see it. That's a problem with soccer generally in my opinion.

Well there was contact. But sure one can argue negligible. But the point is why be so stupid to even do it??

And the CR doesn't have to see it, if one of his Assistants or the 4th Official does.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Well there was contact. But sure one can argue negligible. But the point is why be so stupid to even do it??

And the CR doesn't have to see it, if one of his Assistants or the 4th Official does.

Maybe because the guy shoved him in the chest first and he's an American who doesn't back down from that crap? Where was the yellow for the guy who shoved him?

 

[businesslawyer]

Now the real test for Klinsman, does he have the balls to follow his own advice. He criticized American soccer for not playing young players with more talent over steadier veterans.

Pulisic and Nagbe have to play in the next match. Against Messi and Argentina, you simply can't win with Wondo, Zusi and someone else (Yedlin is back). He needs to play to win, that means playing the players with the most upside, even if they also have the most downside. Take a chance Jurgen.

This will be very interesting. Playing to win is starting Nagbe. Playing not to lose is starting Beckerman. Having said that, here are his choices.

The first is whether you leave Besler at left back, give Yedlin back his slot and move Johnson to left midfield, or do you redo your desired back four with Johnson on the left.

Either way, I'm assuming he's sticking with a 4-4-2, which means Zardes has to play the Wood role of running past the defense and Dempsey stays where he is. Wondo is a replacement for Dempsey -- as much loyalty as JK has shown him, I don't see how Wondo and Dempsey makes sense as a pairing. So with Zardes up top and Bedoya out, Zusi plays the right wing half and then Johnson, if he leaves Besler in, or one of Pulisic or Nagbe, if he doesn't, plays the left wing. Either Nagbe plays for Jones and Bradley stays back, or Beckerman parks in front of the back 4 and Bradley slides up.

What do I see JK doing? Playing a midfield of Johnson, Beckerman, Bradley and Zusi. With Beckerman and Besler in, that's ignoring his own words and hoping you can get a 90 minute draw and take your shot at penalties. What would I do? This isn't a game we're likely to win anyway. I'd go for it and then refocus in the third place game. I'd leave Johnson at LFB and go with Pulisic, Nagbe, Bradley and Zusi.

We'll see.

And by the way -- if we go to penalties, without at all knocking how Guzan has played just based on quickness do I let Howard come in for a shootout?

 

[businesslawyer]

Well there was contact. But sure one can argue negligible. But the point is why be so stupid to even do it??

And the CR doesn't have to see it, if one of his Assistants or the 4th Official does.

There was contact. Under the old rules, it was nothing or a yellow. But under the new rule, the decision to give him a red was perfectly defensible. As a team you can't waste cards on arguments and fouling someone when the ball isn't even in play. Bedoya's cards (and Yedlin's) you have to live with. The others are just lack of discipline. In Jones's case, the offender was being tossed from the field. Isn't that enough of a reward for being the innocent party?

 

[CallMeBruce]

I've been as big a Klinsmann critic as anyone, and I still have a significant personal dislike for him, but since the Ecuador game the team has looked really good. The tactical revolution he promised still hasn't materialized, but they're playing US-style soccer as well as I can remember, and the players he's brought in seem to be playing better, especially John Brooks, who has been a revelation.

I still have a lot of issues with his personnel choices (how we haven't seen Pulisic since the first game is beyond me), but hopefully these suspensions will be a blessing in disguise. Given how the back line looked yesterday with Besler at LB, I'd be interested to see him stay there against Argentina, with Fabian moving to midfield and starting with Nagbe and Bradley, and he'd better slot Pulisic in at Wood's spot.

I still don't think they have much of a chance against Argentina (too much firepower with Messi, Aguero, Higuain, Lavezzi, etc.), but I think they can get in there and make a show of it, and for the US to lose in the semis of the Copa is plenty impressive. And who knows? Maybe they get another big game from Guzan and Dempsey manages to sneak one in there.

 

[CallMeBruce]

There was contact. Under the old rules, it was nothing or a yellow. But under the new rule, the decision to give him a red was perfectly defensible. As a team you can't waste cards on arguments and fouling someone when the ball isn't even in play. Bedoya's cards (and Yedlin's) you have to live with. The others are just lack of discipline. In Jones's case, the offender was being tossed from the field. Isn't that enough of a reward for being the innocent party?

I think the card was pretty weak, but it wasn't as stupid as Jones doing whatever he did to the guy's face. Just help your teammate up and walk away, because you know that second yellow is coming for Valencia. I know that goonishness is part of what makes Jones as effective as he is, but that kind of stuff is indefensible.

 

[businesslawyer]

I think the card was pretty weak, but it wasn't as stupid as Jones doing whatever he did to the guy's face. Just help your teammate up and walk away, because you know that second yellow is coming for Valencia. I know that goonishness is part of what makes Jones as effective as he is, but that kind of stuff is indefensible.

Goonishness while the ball is in play I can live with. Goonishness when the ball is dead, not so much.

 

[meyers7]

Maybe because the guy shoved him in the chest first and he's an American who doesn't back down from that crap? Where was the yellow for the guy who shoved him?

Who cares? His team was up 11v1o and he screwed it up. No excuses, other than stupidity. Back down and your team cruises the rest of the game and you get to play in the semi's where your team will really need you. By not "backing down", he let his teammates down. No reason for him to even be around the dust up.

 

[HuskyHawk]

This will be very interesting. Playing to win is starting Nagbe. Playing not to lose is starting Beckerman. Having said that, here are his choices.

The first is whether you leave Besler at left back, give Yedlin back his slot and move Johnson to left midfield, or do you redo your desired back four with Johnson on the left.

Either way, I'm assuming he's sticking with a 4-4-2, which means Zardes has to play the Wood role of running past the defense and Dempsey stays where he is. Wondo is a replacement for Dempsey -- as much loyalty as JK has shown him, I don't see how Wondo and Dempsey makes sense as a pairing. So with Zardes up top and Bedoya out, Zusi plays the right wing half and then Johnson, if he leaves Besler in, or one of Pulisic or Nagbe, if he doesn't, plays the left wing. Either Nagbe plays for Jones and Bradley stays back, or Beckerman parks in front of the back 4 and Bradley slides up.

What do I see JK doing? Playing a midfield of Johnson, Beckerman, Bradley and Zusi. With Beckerman and Besler in, that's ignoring his own words and hoping you can get a 90 minute draw and take your shot at penalties. What would I do? This isn't a game we're likely to win anyway. I'd go for it and then refocus in the third place game. I'd leave Johnson at LFB and go with Pulisic, Nagbe, Bradley and Zusi.

We'll see.

And by the way -- if we go to penalties, without at all knocking how Guzan has played just based on quickness do I let Howard come in for a shootout?

You see it more or less how I see it. I'd do what you suggest, but I'd really like to find out if Pulisic or Nagbe can play the Bobby Wood role up top. Ideally I'd play one of them instead of Zardes, who at least does have a good defensive work rate when playing in a wing midfield role. His touch was better yesterday as well.

I think JK will start Zusi for Jones. He will put Yedlin back at RFB, put Johnson at wing, Besler at LFB and move Zardes up top. I'm not sure he'll play Beckerman, I still think he's his defensive midfield sub of choice, so we might see him start one of Nagbe or Pulisic at the other wing midfield slot.

You are right about Guzan's lateral quickness. Do we have any young goalies coming up? This used to be a strength.

 

[meyers7]

There was contact. Under the old rules, it was nothing or a yellow. But under the new rule, the decision to give him a red was perfectly defensible. As a team you can't waste cards on arguments and fouling someone when the ball isn't even in play. Bedoya's cards (and Yedlin's) you have to live with. The others are just lack of discipline. In Jones's case, the offender was being tossed from the field. Isn't that enough of a reward for being the innocent party?

Exactly.

 

[Samoo]

Start Nagbe.

2011 MLS goal of the year

 

[CallMeBruce]

You are right about Guzan's lateral quickness. Do we have any young goalies coming up? This used to be a strength.

Really? With the possible exception of Brooks, Guzan has probably been our best player this tournament. He's not the same type of athlete that Howard is, but he makes far fewer mistakes. I have 0 complaints about Guzan right now. He was tremendous yesterday and made several huge plays.

 

[businesslawyer]

Really? With the possible exception of Brooks, Guzan has probably been our best player this tournament. He's not the same type of athlete that Howard is, but he makes far fewer mistakes. I have 0 complaints about Guzan right now. He was tremendous yesterday and made several huge plays.

I don't think anyone complained about Guzan. I certainly didn't. But being a keeper in a penalty shootout is very different than playing a 90 minute game. It's no longer about controlling your box and avoiding mistakes. Now it's about who can make the one spectacular save. From the moment Tim Howard took over as the Red Bull's keeper, very few anywhere could make the kind of spectacular athletic saves that he could. How much of the quickness burst he's lost, I don't know (didn't see him enough for Everton this year although he certainly had it against Belgium 2 years ago). But that is not, and never will be, Guzan's strength.

Interestingly, if you believe JK, he wanted Nick Rimando to play the shootout (that never happened) against Mexico last fall over both Guzan and Howard. And yet, he brought a promising youngster (Horvath) to carry the ball bag as third keeper this tourney. But because this game would only go 90 minutes to a shootout -- not 120 -- and we are limited on our bench with the three suspensions anyway, this is absolutely a game that, if it's tied in the second half, you could try to save a substitution if your starting keeper is not your best option for defending penalties.

 

[SubbaBub]

Dempsey's substitution when Yedlin picked up his red was an acknowledgement that Demspey shouldn't leave the penalty area if he can help it.

He and Wood should try interchanging in a stacked formation. CD starting underneath wood to collect stray midfield passes and be an outlet target while Wood pressures the defense and is available for long balls over the top.

Once possession is established in the attacking half, CD should be a beeline for the penalty spot, while Wood works the wing and the edge of the box.

So, pretty much this happened. When I looked at the replay of Dempsey's goal he was standing right in front of the spot. On his "assist" he tried to out dribble a defender and forced a weak shot wide. Fortunately, Zardes was there to collect the garbage.

 

[CallMeBruce]

Goonishness while the ball is in play I can live with. Goonishness when the ball is dead, not so much.

This is exactly my point.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Really? With the possible exception of Brooks, Guzan has probably been our best player this tournament. He's not the same type of athlete that Howard is, but he makes far fewer mistakes. I have 0 complaints about Guzan right now. He was tremendous yesterday and made several huge plays.

@businesslawyer explains it perfectly below. Saying Guzan lacks lateral quickness in a penalty kick situation isn't the same as saying he isn't a good keeper. He's solid, dependable and makes few mistakes. I don't think you can count on him for many spectacular saves, but he makes those he should make.

 

[CallMeBruce]

I don't think anyone complained about Guzan. I certainly didn't. But being a keeper in a penalty shootout is very different than playing a 90 minute game. It's no longer about controlling your box and avoiding mistakes. Now it's about who can make the one spectacular save. From the moment Tim Howard took over as the Red Bull's keeper, very few anywhere could make the kind of spectacular athletic saves that he could. How much of the quickness burst he's lost, I don't know (didn't see him enough for Everton this year although he certainly had it against Belgium 2 years ago). But that is not, and never will be, Guzan's strength.

Interestingly, if you believe JK, he wanted Nick Rimando to play the shootout (that never happened) against Mexico last fall over both Guzan and Howard. And yet, he brought a promising youngster (Horvath) to carry the ball bag as third keeper this tourney. But because this game would only go 90 minutes to a shootout -- not 120 -- and we are limited on our bench with the three suspensions anyway, this is absolutely a game that, if it's tied in the second half, you could try to save a substitution if your starting keeper is not your best option for defending penalties.

Maybe I misunderstood. I thought he was saying the goalkeeper "used to be our strength," implying that Guzan was not a strong keeper. I agree that he's not the same kind of explosive keeper that we've had over the past decade+ with Timmy, Keller, and Friedel, and it's not an unreasonable point that maybe they'd be better off with Howard in a penalty shootout scenario. Furthermore, it wouldn't be unheard of to make a swap like that. The Dutch started Cillesen every match in the last WC, but brought in Krul for at least one penalty shootout, and it worked.

 

[HuskyHawk]

So, pretty much this happened. When I looked at the replay of Dempsey's goal he was standing right in front of the spot. On his "assist" he tried to out dribble a defender and forced a weak shot wide. Fortunately, Zardes was there to collect the garbage.

His assist was going in, with or without Zardes. There was nobody around to clear it.

 

[CallMeBruce]

His assist was going in, with or without Zardes. There was nobody around to clear it.

I'm not sure it would have gone in - looked like it was going to hit the woodwork (though it's very possible it would have bounced in). That being said, people who watch soccer know that, regardless of whether it was going in on its own, Dempsey created that goal by beating a defender and drawing both the keeper and the other CB, leaving Zardes wide open. Guaranteed he hit the ball towards the other side of the goal knowing there was at least an even-money chance that Zardes would put it away.

 

[SubbaBub]

Jones is a red by rule, he has to be better there but then again, he never has been.

JK deserves some blame for Bedoya's card. He should have subbed him earlier. Of course that would have meant agreeing with Donovan. Lol.

Wood IMO has been the difference maker. With him we generate chances in the final third and without him we haven't. Huge loss for the semis. Zardes probably gets the nod, but I might try Pulisic and go 4-3-3.

Midfield of Bradley, Beckerman and Nagbe. Keep the first team back 4.

Though I'm intrigued by BL' idea of pushing Johnson forward into Bedoyas role, but I think that leaves us short up top in a 4-4-2. I don't think Sardis can create the kind of space for Dempsey that Wood did. I'm also not wild about a two man center midfield against Messi.

 

[SubbaBub]

His assist was going in, with or without Zardes. There was nobody around to clear it.

It would have hit the post, and likely stayed out. 30% chance it bounced in, but there was a defender right there if it didn't. Point is that was not his intended outcome, from a spot on the field that isnt his strength to be attacking from the way he attacked it.

 

[CallMeBruce]

It would have hit the post, and likely stayed out. 30% chance it bounced in, but there was a defender right there if it didn't. Point is that was not his intended outcome, from a spot on the field that isnt his strength to be attacking from the way he attacked it.

This is entirely conjecture on your part, and if you're trying to say that Dempsey did something wrong on that play, you're looking for things to criticize. It was a superb individual play that set up an easy goal for a teammate.

 

[businesslawyer]

It would have hit the post, and likely stayed out. 30% chance it bounced in, but there was a defender right there if it didn't. Point is that was not his intended outcome, from a spot on the field that isnt his strength to be attacking from the way he attacked it.

Where in the world are you going with this. We have scored 7 goals in 4 games. He has scored 3 and assisted on 3. You can go through them individually all you want and tell me why they weren't deserved or good plays or were just lucky. Who ### cares? He's a striker. His job is to score goals and help us score goals. We are in the semis largely because he has done his job and then some. As Bill Russell used to say, "they don't ask how, they ask how many."

 

[SubbaBub]

Where in the world are you going with this. We have scored 7 goals in 4 games. He has scored 3 and assisted on 3. You can go through them individually all you want and tell me why they weren't deserved or good plays or were just lucky. Who ### cares? He's a striker. His job is to score goals and help us score goals. We are in the semis largely because he has done his job and then some. As Bill Russell used to say, "they don't ask how, they ask how many."

My point exactly is that he is a striker, and a good one who often has delusions that he is Lionel Messi darting through the defense from midfield. He's also a ball hog. So, give him the ball where his options are limited to one touch and shooting.

His results back me up and I think it hurts the team when he doesn't do the things he should be doing. Just like when Zardes muffs his first touch or when Jones gets hot headed.

Without Wood to receive the long ball, I think he may revert back to trying to collect the ball deeper and that wouldn't be the best chance of winning.

 

[CallMeBruce]

My point exactly is that he is a striker, and a good one who often has delusions that he is Lionel Messi darting through the defense from midfield. He's also a ball hog. So, give him the ball where his options are limited to one touch and shooting.

His results back me up and I think it hurts the team when he doesn't do the things he should be doing. Just like when Zardes muffs his first touch or when Jones gets hot headed.

Without Wood to receive the long ball, I think he may revert back to trying to collect the ball deeper and that wouldn't be the best chance of winning.

LOL. Your opinions are bad and you should feel bad.