Coach K

[Lefty2one]

What a thread. I don't think they underachieved this year; part of it is that the top of college basketball has been dreadful for like a decade. There are very few powerhouse teams or teams without major flaws. This year's Duke team was a poor fit and really thin. They were what, 339th in the country in 3PT shooting? It's going to be really, really hard to win a title if you're that poor of a shooting team. Looking at their final statistics, it's hilarious that of the starting five Zion was their best 3PT shooter on the season (.338, just edging out Reddish at .333).

Jones: .262
Reddish: .333
Barrett: .308
Zion: .338
DeLaurier: .000

People can project Reddish's pro potential all they'd like but it's a different topic than discussing what he was as a college player: he sucked. He was a bad player by every metric out there. He shot 35% from the floor, under 40% from inside the arc, had a TS% of .499 (!!!), and had way more turnovers than assists. Barrett put up big numbers with a huge volume and so-so efficiency. This team was probably an 8-10 seed without Zion. We saw how easily they could have lost to UCF and VaTech. It wasn't a vintage Duke team.

Separately, Coach K does look old and tired these days. He's not as sharp in his interviews. Doesn't seem quite as active on the sideline as he used to be. I wonder how many years he has left.

 

[CallMeBruce]

Bottom line...Its hard to win, simple as that. Do I like Coach K and Duke? No, Do I respect Coach K? Yes. The guy has won 5 National Championships and over 1,100 games. You cant make the argument that Coach K is in any way shape or form over rated, and that goes for a lot of other coaches as well. Other fanbases may say Jim Calhoun is not a great coach. Well, Calhoun has won 3 National Championships (1 of only 6 coaches to do so) and won almost 900 games in his career. So when people say things like that about the all time greats, what are they basing that off of?

No one says this about Calhoun.

 

[Ts5034]

No one says this about Calhoun.

Nobody here says that obviously, but I swear ive seen posts like that on the Syracuse board

 

[UConnRock]

This may be a little cold, but I dislike all the emotional quotes from these guys that just wore the Duke jersey for 5 months (November thru March). These guys think they have a special bond or brotherhood that they developed during this period and are forever a part of Duke lore. Zion may have a lasting legacy at Duke, but the other guys made little if any remarkable impact.

Duke and Coach K served their roles to provide these guys a springboard to the NBA draft. ESPN played along as a willing accomplice. They didn't get Coach K his 6th title so they are a disappointment. Coach K will bring in another group next year to repeat the lunacy of how much better Duke is at shaping and developing these players into quality people beyond the court. I hated Duke in the 1990s and 2000s, but respected the teams that they developed. This attempt to maintain Duke's and Coach K's reputations for scholarly athletes and personal development during the 1 and done era is sickening.

 

[Travelman6]

There were only a handful of teams that were going to take down duke, msu just happened to be the 2 placed in the same region, quite a poor placement IMO as I have said before and one of the few capable of doing it. VTech in the s16 was another. I think duke usually gets a good draw leading to the Ffour but IMO, this year they weren't done many favors, being stuck with a 7"7 with an 8"4 wingspan center they've seen nothing like, a team that already beat them and had the blueprint and an experienced 2 seed, likely the best two as well. It was actually kind of a tough road. I half expected Gonzaga as the 2, Houston as the 3, Marquette as the 5, buffalo 6 and Nevada 7 in their region. Nope. The only other teams that would have challenged were on the opposite side, UNC and an improved Kentucky team I think would have given Duke a run. Maybe a fully healthy Auburn.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

This may be a little cold, but I dislike all the emotional quotes from these guys that just wore the Duke jersey for 5 months (November thru March). These guys think they have a special bond or brotherhood that they developed during this period and are forever a part of Duke lore.

I'm not a Duke fan but who are you to tell them they don't?

 

[spudzj6]

What did I just read? I spent too much time on a thread that should be titled "Greatest April Fool's Hot Takes"

McLovin - I get what you have been trying to argue, and if you had admitted your original statement was a bit over the top right away, you wouldn't of been hit so hard. You are trying to say that based on the hype Zion has been given since before he put on a Duke jersey, you thought he was the next coming of Lebron, which simply couldn't of been the case. But that doesn't mean he isnt a good, or even great basketball player. You watched a couple games of his and thought, eh, overrated. The problem is this guy is not Lebron in any way shape or form, you can't compare the two. He will never play the game in the style Lebron plays. You can kind of see him as a much better version of Zach Randolph (in style of play only)...maybe even a bit like Larry Johnson style. His style of play leads you to believe he will be stifled with NBA caliber athletes, which I can also see, BUT if you watch his games you can see just how good he can be. The guy is very easy to scout - he has soft hands, finishes at the rim with ease, but he is very left side dominant on offense. His defense is also easy to scout - hes a high flyer that likes to help on the weak side, so look to him to come off his man when you drive. Also, you can try to back him down and go up into him to take away his jumping ability (key word try, because he's a tank). All that said...executing against the scouting report will be a nightmare - because this kid is an EXCELLENT basketball player. He sees the floor, has an above average passing ability and most importantly he has excellent footwork and basketball instinct. he will almost always be in the right spot at the right time. His sheer size/speed combo will be a matchup nightmare for a lot of teams.

TLDR; Zion is an excellent basketball player - watch him more than twice and you can see that.

 

[UConnRock]

Duke was not that good. There are probably 15-20 teams in the tournament that could beat Duke on a given night. They just didn't happen to run into 3 consecutive teams (UCF, Va Tech and Mich St.) that were tough matchups. They lost 6 games and had 6 2 point or less wins. People are making Tacko Fall into a superstar because UCF almost beat Duke. Fall averaged 11/7 and had 15/6 against Duke. UCF lost to Temple and Memphis leading up to the Tourney. Yes, Va Tech was familiar with Duke, but Duke was also familiar with Va tech. You would think that K in his coaching brilliance could formulate a game plan to beat Va Tech.

K does not game plan or adjust. He runs his offense and looks for skill (high level recruits) to win the game. If he had his requisite 3 point sharp shooter this year it may have been a different team.

 

[Northbound]

People in the BY do realize that NBA players are vastly superior to college talent? Has he posted great stats in college? Sure! In one of the best conferences? Sure!

But the step to the next level most people are his size and can match his quickness. He won't be able to bully his way like he does in college. He can't shoot outside the paint (you guy's might not watch NBA, but that is required even for centers these days). He relies on his size to bully opposing bigs while driving. If you think he is going to do that to someone like Embiid, Jokic, Blake, AD, etc., then he has a lot of development left.

He can get there, but I think with his skill set (not a 7 footer and not a dynamic guard) he is going to have a tough time adjusting to the NBA from college / high school.

We now know one of the guys that pays $8.99 for the Mike's on app.

 

[JohnFSilver]

This is an insane thread. LOL.

As far as Coach K, he is a great coach. I do think his motion system is not really conducive to NBA players to be honest. Kentucky's dribble drive and kick, PnR and lastly isolation is more pro conducive.

But, K's a great coach. I think his team lost, as someone mentioned above, because they couldn't shoot the 3 well enough. That, and FT shooting kill you in NCAA play.

As far as Zion, I think he will score a lot at NBA level but I don't see the dominant player that others do. He isn't a dominant rebounder, defender or passer and isn't a big-time shooter.


He is a 6-foot-7 athletic freak, but I think he gets swallowed up a bit in the NBA halfcourt. Where does he play? Outside face up? In the post, I don't see him being able to overpower guys like Rudy Gobert. Heck, Tacko swallowed him.

He'd have to score 25 plus a game on monster efficiency. Can he defend on the perimeter? I don't know. I do find those advanced stats skeptical because he literally overpowers everyone at the college level. He plays hard, so that's a start.

 

[Travelman6]

With that said, my all time top 10 favorite Duke games:

10. LSU 62 Duke 54, 2006
9. WVirginia 73 Duke 67, 2008
8. Arizona 93 Duke 77, 2011
7. Indiana 74 Duke 73, 2002
6. South Carolina 88 Duke 81, 2017
5. VCU 79 Duke 77, 2007
4. Mercer 78 Duke 71, 2014
3. Lehigh 75 Duke 70, 2012
2. Uconn 79 Duke 78, 2004
1. Uconn 77 Duke 74, 1999

Honorable mentions: Providence 98 Duke 87 (1997) and Duke 95 Maryland 84 (2001)

1 and 2 go without saying. Yesterday did not crack my top 10, oh well, still fun!

 

[Lefty2one]

As far as Zion, I think he will score a lot at NBA level but I don't see the dominant player that others do. He isn't a dominant rebounder, defender or passer and isn't a big-time shooter.

He is a 6-foot-7 athletic freak, but I think he gets swallowed up a bit in the NBA halfcourt. Where does he play? Outside face up? In the post, I don't see him being able to overpower guys like Rudy Gobert. Heck, Tacko swallowed him.

He'd have to score 25 plus a game on monster efficiency. Can he defend on the perimeter? I don't know. I do find those advanced stats skeptical because he literally overpowers everyone at the college level. He plays hard, so that's a start.

I believe he'll be a fantastic defender at the next level; DPOY potential. I don't think there's any question he can defend on the perimeter. With his motor + athletic gifts I'm not sure a better modern pick-and-roll defender could be a made in a lab. He'll be able to switch everything, his help D and recovery skills are crazy, he'll be able to trap some PnRs. He swarms all over the court defensively; his effort and impact on that end of the floor this season was impressive. He gambles too much, that's about the only thing not to like about his defense.

I think his handle is fine and underrated by many. He's got that in-and-out and little spin move and that should be enough for now. Above all, I think his BBIQ is way underrated. He makes a lot of smart passes and doesn't force things that often. In the NBA he'll mainly be attacking a ton of closeouts; that is a horrifying proposition for the defense. He's going to dunk on you, draw a foul, or make the right pass. Don't forget that he's going to the NBA where refs give offensive players the benefit of the doubt and you're allowed to create contact/jump into defenders and earn a whistle; as infuriating as that is it's going to help Zion a ton.

He's going to be a major matchup problem. You stick a three on him, they'll be overpowered by his strength. He's going to be too quick for most stretch fours. On the other end of the floor he'll be able to guard either spots. I hope he lands with a team who has the stones to play him at the 5 in stretches in a super smallball lineup like the Warriors with Draymond at the 5.

You have to throw out the traditional scouting rulebook with this kid. He's that gifted and that unique.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

It's wild to hear people saying that an 18 year old is not going to be able to "overpower" guys that he's already bigger and stronger than.

 

[JohnFSilver]

I believe he'll be a fantastic defender at the next level; DPOY potential. I don't think there's any question he can defend on the perimeter. With his motor + athletic gifts I'm not sure a better modern pick-and-roll defender could be a made in a lab. He'll be able to switch everything, his help D and recovery skills are crazy, he'll be able to trap some PnRs. He swarms all over the court defensively; his effort and impact on that end of the floor this season was impressive. He gambles too much, that's about the only thing not to like about his defense.

I think his handle is fine and underrated by many. He's got that in-and-out and little spin move and that should be enough for now. Above all, I think his BBIQ is way underrated. He makes a lot of smart passes and doesn't force things that often. In the NBA he'll mainly be attacking a ton of closeouts; that is a horrifying proposition for the defense. He's going to dunk on you, draw a foul, or make the right pass. Don't forget that he's going to the NBA where refs give offensive players the benefit of the doubt and you're allowed to create contact/jump into defenders and earn a whistle; as infuriating as that is it's going to help Zion a ton.

He's going to be a major matchup problem. You stick a three on him, they'll be overpowered by his strength. He's going to be too quick for most stretch fours. On the other end of the floor he'll be able to guard either spots. I hope he lands with a team who has the stones to play him at the 5 in stretches in a super smallball lineup like the Warriors with Draymond at the 5.

You have to throw out the traditional scouting rulebook with this kid. He's that gifted and that unique.

Hmm. We see Draymond Green type defender? He has the motor to be that.

I think we gotta be careful of saying throw out the book. He isn't Giannis. That guys is unique. The quality of NBA athleticism is off the charts. I don't see LeBron, Russell Westbrook, Giannis ability in Zion.

Could it be anti-duke bias?

If he can play like Giannis, then by all means do it as a faceup 4 who doesn't need a jumper. But, it took Milwaukee several years to put the shooters around him and figure out a style (needed a new coach).

I also think he is fat. How the hell is he not going to be 300 pounds at 27? Look at guys with that build like Shaq and Barkley, who always struggled with weight. If he has those careers though, worth the pick. To me, foot problems are in the future. People aren't supposed to be that big and athletic.

We'll see. I do see 23 PPG and about 8 RPG for him next year.

One thing on his athleticism, I don't think guys like Joel Embiid, Deandre Jordan, Andre Drummond, Rubd Gobert and centers like Jokic are going to be that in awe of his size and power. Ya know?

Now, my fav player in draft is Morant. My lord. He looks like an NBA star to me.

 

[JohnFSilver]

It's wild to hear people saying that an 18 year old is not going to be able to "overpower" guys that he's already bigger and stronger than.

Who is he bigger and stronger than? He is going to overpower Andre Drummond at the rim? Length matters.

 

[superjohn]

Hmm. We see Draymond Green type defender? He has the motor to be that.

I think we gotta be careful of saying throw out the book. He isn't Giannis. That guys is unique. The quality of NBA athleticism is off the charts. I don't see LeBron, Russell Westbrook, Giannis ability in Zion.

Could it be anti-duke bias?

If he can play like Giannis, then by all means do it as a faceup 4 who doesn't need a jumper. But, it took Milwaukee several years to put the shooters around him and figure out a style (needed a new coach).

I also think he is fat. How the hell is he not going to be 300 pounds at 27? Look at guys with that build like Shaq and Barkley, who always struggled with weight. If he has those careers though, worth the pick. To me, foot problems are in the future. People aren't supposed to be that big and athletic.

We'll see. I do see 23 PPG and about 8 RPG for him next year.

One thing on his athleticism, I don't think guys like Joel Embiid, Deandre Jordan, Andre Drummond, Rubd Gobert and centers like Jokic are going to be that in awe of his size and power. Ya know?

Now, my fav player in draft is Morant. My lord. He looks like an NBA star to me.

This thread just gets better and better....

Zion isn't unique. Zion is fat.

 

[SU1968]

In his time at Duke (1980-81):

He has:

over 1000 wins
5 titles
12 Final Fours
16 E8s (12-4 in the E8!!!)
25 S16
12 Regular Season titles
15 Conference Tournament Titles

The only program that's on par with what he alone has done is UNC over that period. And they started as the destination school in the state with a HOF coach and a prior coach that had won titles. It gave UNC a head start of over 6 years (where they collected a title another Final Fours).

And when K went there, his program was #3 in North Carolina.

I'm not going to count wins, but

UNC

5 titles
13 Final Fours
20 E8s
27 S16
18 regular season conference titles
10 Conference Tournament titles

Kentucky

3 titles
9 Final Fours
19 E8s
24 S16
17 regular season conference titles
19 Conference Tournament titles

Kansas

2 titles
9 Final Fours
15 E8s
23 S16
24 regular season conference titles
15 Conference Tournament titles

He puts Kentucky and Kansas to shame. Put up by comparison.

UConn

4 titles
5 Final Fours
10 E8s
14 S16
10 regular season conference titles
8 Conference Tournament titles

His record is unbelievable. Single game elimination means teams are going to lose flukey games. But the best programs in the country couldn't win more titles than him in his time. So, that's gotta tell you something, right?

I want to add this: Until the NBA changed its rules to allow college players to go pro before their class graduated, Coach K would refuse to hoist a championship banner until every senior on that team got his diploma.

 

[JohnFSilver]

This thread just gets better and better....

Zion isn't unique. Zion is fat.

He is unique. He is a great prospect. He is also fat. Maybe he slims down to 265. Walk and chew gum.

Would you take Zion over say, Joel Embiid, Giannis or Anthony Davis? Those guys all have length on them, Zion is a 6-foot-7 PF.

He is going to kill 1-on-1 in the NBA. And in transition will dunk.

But, I watch a ton of NBA, his length bothers me. Wasn't he 1-of-9 against Fall? Struggled to get the shot over him. It is his motor, relentlessness that I love about him. The kid plays harder than anyone else on the floor.

Just saying there are questions about his length and his jump shot as well as his handle. He has to be a perimeter 4 in the NBA. There are no longer low post power forwards anymore.

We would expect this player to be first team all nba with the hype? Right? That's a high bar.

 

[JohnFSilver]

BTW: Here's a reasonable story. I think he is like Larry Johnson, pre-injury. He is as explosive as Blake Griffin was before his knee injury.

Concerns on shooting. He does have some question marks IMO.

Can Zion Williamson live up to LeBron-level hype? NBA scouts break down Duke phenom's game

 

[freescooter]

He gets a break from the ref, no doubt. What was good about yesterday was it came back to bite him when they couldn’t put Michigan State on the line late. The guy is a good coach. But he has bought into the 1-done game 100% and just like Cal that seems to come back to bite you in the ass at crunch time. Having a senior leader or two out there in critical spots can turn the tide when teams are pretty equal.

 

[JeepCSC]

There are 3 phases to K’s career. The scrappy underdog-turned-champions whose teams seemed to carry a chip on their shoulder. 1981-1994. 7 Final Fours, 2 titles. Bulk of FFs came here.

1995 broke more than K’s back. K started recruiting differently and Duke started morphing into the evil empire we all loved to loath. He got better athletes but the inconsistency in March started showing. 1995-2010. 4 FFs, 2 titles. Bulk of ACC success came here.

Then came the OAD era. He started off slowly with Kyrie and Rivers, and by the end he was just doing wholesale roster overhauls. His short bench and the transfers it produced began to catch up with K. Whereas before he kept his star players for multiple seasons and their experience could override the lack of depth, there was no safety net here. Inexperienced stars had fewer and fewer veterans to lean on. 2011-2019. 1 Final Four, 1 title.


It’s been a heck of a career. But 5 Final Fours in the last 25 years with more talent than anyone not named Sam Gilbert is astonishing.

 

[Lefty2one]

Hmm. We see Draymond Green type defender? He has the motor to be that.

I think we gotta be careful of saying throw out the book. He isn't Giannis. That guys is unique. The quality of NBA athleticism is off the charts. I don't see LeBron, Russell Westbrook, Giannis ability in Zion.

I also think he is fat. How the hell is he not going to be 300 pounds at 27? Look at guys with that build like Shaq and Barkley, who always struggled with weight. If he has those careers though, worth the pick. To me, foot problems are in the future. People aren't supposed to be that big and athletic.

Zion is more athletic than LeBron was at the same age. LeBron was faster but nowhere near as strong; Zion has 40-50 lbs on LeBron at the same age and it's muscle. LeBron never got off the floor as quickly as Zion, especially their second-jumps. Zion's straight vertical (two feet) is better than LeBron's was. I don't know how his athletic uniqueness isn't abundantly clear.

He's not fat. At all...

Shaq wasn't fat coming out of LSU or in his Orlando days. He just got lazy as hell and took summers off by the time he got to LA. Phil Jackson's books detailed how poor his dedication to his conditioning was.

 

[Lefty2one]

He is unique. He is a great prospect. He is also fat. Maybe he slims down to 265. Walk and chew gum.

Would you take Zion over say, Joel Embiid, Giannis or Anthony Davis? Those guys all have length on them, Zion is a 6-foot-7 PF.

He is going to kill 1-on-1 in the NBA. And in transition will dunk.

But, I watch a ton of NBA, his length bothers me. Wasn't he 1-of-9 against Fall? Struggled to get the shot over him. It is his motor, relentlessness that I love about him. The kid plays harder than anyone else on the floor.

Just saying there are questions about his length and his jump shot as well as his handle. He has to be a perimeter 4 in the NBA. There are no longer low post power forwards anymore.

We would expect this player to be first team all nba with the hype? Right? That's a high bar.

Sure, he's not a lock to be a superstar, mainly because of his jumpshot, but I'm just not worried about his size. Barkley thrived in an era that was bigger, more physical, and less perimeter-oriented. If Barkley was coming out today I can only imagine how many people would be predicting he'd bust. I think Zion fits into that tiny category of being so physically gifted and unique that he'll overcome the classic/predicted issues of being undersized.

Zion had some struggles against Fall but UCF packed the paint so hard, completely ignoring Jones and Goldwire, and playing plenty of zone. Zion will never see that in the NBA: a 7'6" guy who's allowed to stand at the rim for the entirety of defensive possession. And yet Zion still had 32 & 11 and shot 50% from the floor. Duke was one of the worst shooting teams in the country. Teams packed the paint. Zion in an open, flowing NBA offense will have so much more room to thrive.

I'm not worried about him against larger NBA bigs because he's shown great decision making to me. He makes a lot of smart passes when attacking the rim. He seems to have good instincts as to when he should seek contact/finish or kick it out and he's very unselfish. It's so easy in today's NBA to put defenses into rotation: a high PnR or a quick action and the defense is scrambling. Zion won't be playing that much 1v1 against a set defense.

 

[McLovin]

BTW: Here's a reasonable story. I think he is like Larry Johnson, pre-injury. He is as explosive as Blake Griffin was before his knee injury.

Concerns on shooting. He does have some question marks IMO.

Can Zion Williamson live up to LeBron-level hype? NBA scouts break down Duke phenom's game

This article hits the nail on the head of what I am saying... maybe a little more polished than how I presented the argument.

He's a freak of an athlete, but his basketball skills are not at the elite level of his athletic ability. In order to be at the top level in the pros (which again, they keep giving him comps to LeBron) you need more than freakish athletic ability.

NBA scouts and college coaches say the exact same thing in this article. When he goes against NBA caliber players in the paint, he won't be able to move them the way he did in college. Can he still be successful? Sure, but it is going to take a lot of work to develop his skills if he is going to live up to the hype and comparisons they make on ESPN every day and night. That's the point I was trying to make.

Edit: Basically everyone who told me I was wrong about his basketball skills used the justification that Zion has great passing / facilitating, decision making and shooting. Scouts and coaches say the opposite on all 3 points. When someone has insane athletic ability and are playing against inferior competition, it will elevate how that player looks on the court. But too many people confused his athletic ability with pure basketball skills. The former is something a person is born with, the latter a person has to develop. He will be playing against the best basketball players in the world next year who are seasoned and have been around the block, not teams of kids who may be sending 1 or 2 players to the pros. There is a good chance I am wrong about Zion and he ends up tearing up the NBA, but I also seem to be one of the few people (besides all the scouts and coaches who also agree with me) who are being realistic about his basketball skills / how much more he needs to develop to live up to the hype in the NBA.

*drops mic*

From the article:

The translation of that explosiveness is a divisive topic. Bounding through the frontcourt of Virginia, Hartford and Princeton is much different than the Bucks, Suns and Heat. He can certainly compete with that level of athleticism. But can he dominate it? His two-point percentage is No. 4 nationally at 75.8. But how effective will he be against bigger, stronger and faster athletes? Williamson’s passing is also considered pedestrian. He’s averaging 2.3 assists per game, and his decision making and distribution aren’t considered elite.

“He has three cards, and he needs to add two — shooting and quick decisions with the ball,” Gallagher said. “When NBA people overlooked Luka Doncic, they undervalued skill, passing and shot making. That’s what Zion does not have. Zion is going to have a great career, the question is whether he can add those two cards.”

 

[aburks41]

All that matters is that Coach K had a roster with 3 top 10 picks and couldnt even get them to a final four. The dude has been to 2 final fours in the past 15 years. 2 in 15! It’s hard to get to a final four, but when Duke has the most talent every year and the “GOAT” coaching, he should be getting to more than 2 final fours in 15 years. This is obviously a homer take, but if you give Jim Calhoun that talent, he is retiring with at least 7-8 rings.