Caron Butler on how former players view UConn

[UConnDad]

Are they worth $10MM?

No.

We have a coach that has invited them back. Practically begged through the media. If they want to spite the program in defense of their guy, that's their decision.

Did anyone even make the argument that we're better off without them?

My point is they have value. How much is up for debate. Is it the allure to recruits, is it monetary donations, it makes an impression if they just rock our gear. And getting them back will have some cost.

 

[BlueMAB]

UConn says KO breached the contract; was fired for cause and thus under its terms he due no more payments. KO believes that he should be paid as if he was not fired for cause. (An oft forgotten note is that UConn paid KO for 6 months (I think) after he was fired. So he's already gotten $1.5M as de facto severance.)

If Kevin left right away without the adverse publicity a settlement would have had more value to UConn. At this point, not so much. Given the relative merits of the parties' positions, what do you believe to be a reasonable resolution at this point in time?

You didn't ask me, but I think another $1.5 would be more than fair. $3MM total

 

[BlueMAB]

My point is they have value. How much is up for debate. Is it the allure to recruits, is it monetary donations, it makes an impression if they just rock our gear. And getting them back will have some cost.

I get that, and I agree they have value. But Ollie wants $10MM. If he isn't ready to settle for anything less than the full $10MM, then what is UConn to do?

 

[Stainmaster]

I wonder what the Venn diagram between people complaining about the lack of talented players on the team and those downplaying the importance of Hurley being able to fully use our impressive cadre of NBA alumni when recruiting.

Probably a circle.

 

[Stainmaster]

Also, one of the most salient points re. this whole affair is that legal arguments only carry the day so far outside of a courtroom.

 

[Madmannsucks]

Weird thing to bring up and no Ollie isn't going to skip Calhoun's funeral, he's not that bad a guy.

Not that weird. I have recently seen a family squabble, which is why I thought of it.

 

[CL82]

You didn't ask me, but I think another $1.5 would be more than fair. $3MM total

I think $3M was the right number for walking away day 1 without a deliberate PR smear campaign. Today, I might go another $1M over four years, provided that KO put out a single statement indicating that he considers the issue resolved and professing his love for all things UConn. It is the statement that might be worth buying. The difference between that and $1.5M (over say 5 years) isn't a deal breaker.

 

[huskyinfl]

Good thing Kevin Ollie gets to write the ending to the Kevin Ollie story. He gets to decide how his story will move forward, not you maniacs. He will have great success again.

 

[BlueMAB]

Good thing Kevin Ollie gets to write the ending to the Kevin Ollie story. He gets to decide how his story will move forward, not you maniacs. He will have great success again.

This is a strange post. Could you quote the posters who said they want to write the Kevin Ollie story and/or prevent him from having any future success? I'd like to see that lunacy for myself.

 

[Rico444]

Why pay a guy who's contract (which is the only reason you'd pay him) says you don't have to pay him?

Because at least two legendary players in your program don't want anything to do with the program until this situation gets resolved?

 

[BlueMAB]

Because at least two legendary players in your program don't want anything to do with the program until this situation gets resolved?

Again, how are they worth $10MM?

 

[tentoes4rings]

I think that Ollie's experience at UConn looks very different to people in coaching and the business of basketball.

Ollie showed incredible loyalty to UConn when he didn't bolt after the 2014 championship and decided to stay at a school that had received a virtual permanent exile from big time basketball when we got left behind in the AAC. The AAC was a death sentence for UConn athletics. Most of the world recognized that there was no way the athletic program could be successful as the northern outlier in a southern mid-major conference. I think Ollie, who won a National Championship as an assistant in 2011 and another one as a Head Coach in 2014, had a big enough ego that he thought that he could pull off being the Gonzaga of the AAC.

Ollie was wrong. He chased recruits that he could have easily closed in the Big East, but didn't want to play at a mid-major, and then he ended up scrambling for players like Gilbert that were literally damaged goods. Even a lot of the players he closed decided they didn't want to be at a cold weather school that had been bounced out of the big time. Ollie should have better calibrated which recruits he could close at a program that was sliding down the basketball hierarchy, but there isn't a text book for managing a program down the path to irrelevancy. The closest historical comparable was Houston post-Guy Lewis and post-SWC, and Houston didn't manage it well either.

NO UCONN COACH could have maintained any level of success in the AAC. This conference was going to destroy UConn athletics, and even though we are going back to the big time, it may be too late. Ollie was a casualty of the conference debacle as much as anything, and I will not hold him completely responsible for UConn basketball's decline post-2014.

Then, after all that, UConn walks away from a contract that it had promised Ollie when he had a lot of other offers. That will leave a bad taste in a lot of people's mouth, like Caron's.

Oh cmon with all this talk that he had a lot of offers and was loyal to the school. I’m sure after 14 this was the case, but when he got the additional extension there were rumors about him going to Oklahoma City and other clubs but I firmly believe that was just great work by his agent and PR people, to get him another, more lucrative extension. After that extension he stopped caring and trying, stop blaming the AAC on everything.

 

[Rico444]

Again, how are they worth $10MM?

Because in the grand scheme of things, $10 million is nothing to the university. Having a relationship with a bunch of your former players that were instrumental in making this such a great program is more important.

Caron and Ray are two of the biggest ambassadors for the program to the NBA (Kemba being the only other one I'd put up there that is as well known to the casual NBA fan) and they're both on record saying that UConn screwed up here. I don't necessarily agree that Ollie deserves his money, but I'm more concerned with our former players feeling like UConn is still their home.

 

[BlueMAB]

Oh cmon with all this talk that he had a lot of offers and was loyal to the school. I’m sure after 14 this was the case, but when he got the additional extension there were rumors about him going to Oklahoma City and other clubs but I firmly believe that was just great work by his agent and PR people, to get him another, more lucrative extension. After that extension he stopped caring and trying, stop blaming the AAC on everything.

he has no idea if Ollie had other offers or not, but he will literally make up any argument to convince strangers on the internet he's right.

 

[Huskyforlife]

OK, the problem is his "friends" are going to be less inclined to provide support for the program. They are turning away from the program. That is a problem.

The alternative is worse.

 

[BlueMAB]

Because in the grand scheme of things, $10 million is nothing to the university. Having a relationship with a bunch of your former players that were instrumental in making this such a great program is more important.

Caron and Ray are two of the biggest ambassadors for the program to the NBA (Kemba being the only other one I'd put up there that is as well known to the casual NBA fan) and they're both on record saying that UConn screwed up here. I don't necessarily agree that Ollie deserves his money, but I'm more concerned with our former players feeling like UConn is still their home.

LOL. Whatever the amount is, It's always an insignificant amount when it's someone else's money.

If your argument is "UConn can afford it", it's a losing one.

“Anytime you’re losing more money than Rutgers, I would be worried,” Leeds said,

What's $10 million anyway?

 

[Rico444]

LOL. Whatever the amount is, It's always an insignificant amount when it's someone else's money.

If your argument is "UConn can afford it", it's a losing one.

“Anytime you’re losing more money than Rutgers, I would be worried,” Leeds said,

What's $10 million anyway?

You're allowed to have whatever opinion you want. Personally, I'm embarrassed that some of our most famous alums don't want anything to do with us right now. That's not going to change any time soon, and it bothers me.

 

[BlueMAB]

You're allowed to have whatever opinion you want. Personally, I'm embarrassed that some of our most famous alums don't want anything to do with us right now. That's not going to change any time soon, and it bothers me.

Gee thanks. I really appreciate you allowing me to have my opinion. You seem upset. Is it because I countered your argument with facts, or....?

Personally, I'm embarrassed that we had a coach who cheated, lied about it repeatedly, and then accused the school of racism as a last resort. The fact he ran the program into the ground while doing it is added embarrassment.

 

[Stainmaster]

The alternative is worse.

Don’t you want our coach to be able to effectively market UConn’s NBA legacy when recruiting? Pretty tough to do that when they don’t want to be associated with the program.

 

[Hi-Low]

Good thing Kevin Ollie gets to write the ending to the Kevin Ollie story. He gets to decide how his story will move forward, not you maniacs. He will have great success again.

Maybe he will, but remember he's the one that screwed up his tenure and ending at UConn. Programs don't run themselves so maybe if he cherished what he had a little more wouldn't be in this mess.

 

[Rico444]

Gee thanks. I really appreciate you allowing me to have my opinion. You seem upset. Is it because I countered your argument with facts, or....?

Personally, I'm embarrassed that we had a coach who cheated, lied about it repeatedly, and then accused the school of racism as a last resort. The fact he ran the program into the ground while doing it is added embarrassment.

Actually, the all caps 'LOL' is the universal sign of mad. Sorry, I don't make the rules.

I'm not sure what 'facts' you threw at me that you think I'm disputing. I'm also embarrassed by the job Ollie did. I want him to go away until we bring the 2014 back to Gampel to celebrate them. Whether or not $10 million is worth keeping a bunch of legendary players happy is up to your personal preference, was my only point. I think some people are letting their anger towards Ollie cloud what's best for the school. Fracturing your relationship with Ray Allen and Caron Butler is not what's best for the school.

 

[8893]

UConn says KO breached the contract; was fired for cause and thus under its terms he due no more payments. KO believes that he should be paid as if he was not fired for cause. (An oft forgotten note is that UConn paid KO for 6 months (I think) after he was fired. So he's already gotten $1.5M as de facto severance.)

If Kevin left right away without the adverse publicity a settlement would have had more value to UConn. At this point, not so much. Given the relative merits of the parties' positions, what do you believe to be a reasonable resolution at this point in time?

I'm not talking merits or anything. I don't know enough to.

And I'm not talking about adverse publicity or feelings here on the board. I'm talking strictly about whoever of the "UConn family" (i.e., former players) remains at "arms length" from UConn because of their perception that UConn has treated KO unfairly. Perception is reality, so what is reasonable depends on what they think, not me.

It's like the (non-legal) advice I've given to friends who get divorced and have kids: their future relationship with their kids depends on their kids believing that they (the father) treated their mother "fair-plus" in the divorce.

 

[Hans Sprungfeld]

Hello Hans. Not sure I understand your proposed question. Would you like me to respond to the argument that KO was fired for both losing and for cause?

It's factual that KO was fired.

It's common assertion that dissatisfaction with his performance led to widespread displeasure among the fan base, and that the University Administration and Athletic Department shared this dissatisfaction and exercised its prerogative to terminate KO's employment as coach. In simple language, this would bolster the claim that he was fired because the team lost. I am claiming that this is an incomplete characterization, and asking for your thoughts on the fuller description of what has happened.

If poor performance were the only reason he was fired, the University would be legally obligated to pay him the balance due under the terms of the contract.

The contract had provisions that if he were to be fired *for cause*, then the University would have no obligation to pay him further. The University has made such claims. This is the substance of the unsettled dispute. You have not yet used this language and not addressed this significant point.

The legal system has already accepted that there is valid dispute sufficient to entertain the matter through its mechanisms. To me, that suggests that parties could reasonably disagree on this matter. And that's what we have here. You seem not to regard this as valid, but instead find it self-evident that the exclusive reason for his termination was poor performance.

There is a difference between being fired for good/bad/any/no reason(s) and being fired "for cause." No matter how robust your argument is on the former, it doesn't give you license to ignore the latter, so that's what I asked you about.

 

[8893]

Whether or not $10 million is worth keeping a bunch of legendary players happy is up to your personal preference, was my only point.

FWIW, I don't believe for a second the narrative that KO is stuck at $10M and won't budge. I'd expect the real number to be significant discount.

I think the biggest impediment may be the fact that any settlement probably has to be public and can't be confidential, because he's a state employee and UConn is a public university. If this could have been done privately I think it would have resolved a long time ago.

 

[XLCenterFan]

FWIW, I don't believe for a second the narrative that KO is stuck at $10M and won't budge. I'd expect the real number to be significant discount.

I think the biggest impediment may be the fact that any settlement probably has to be public and can't be confidential, because he's a state employee and UConn is a public university. If this could have been done privately I think it would have resolved a long time ago.

Let's also not forget that there is a union involved. This complicates matters as well.