Caron Butler on how former players view UConn

[UConnDad]

UConn paying extortion to get our guys back is worth it to me.

 

[Hi-Low]

So the players like Ray & Caron only come back to the UConn family if KO gives his seal of approval?

Is the $ enough or does KO want UConn to apologize as well to "release" his buds from exile?

Would be nice if after the payoff (whatever it is) KO acknowledged he made mistakes as well.

 

[XLCenterFan]

It's factual that KO was fired.

It's common assertion that dissatisfaction with his performance led to widespread displeasure among the fan base, and that the University Administration and Athletic Department shared this dissatisfaction and exercised its prerogative to terminate KO's employment as coach. In simple language, this would bolster the claim that he was fired because the team lost. I am claiming that this is an incomplete characterization, and asking for your thoughts on the fuller description of what has happened.

If poor performance were the only reason he was fired, the University would be legally obligated to pay him the balance due under the terms of the contract.

The contract had provisions that if he were to be fired *for cause*, then the University would have no obligation to pay him further. The University has made such claims. This is the substance of the unsettled dispute. You have not yet used this language and not addressed this significant point.

The legal system has already accepted that there is valid dispute sufficient to entertain the matter through its mechanisms. To me, that suggests that parties could reasonably disagree on this matter. And that's what we have here. You seem not to regard this as valid, but instead find it self-evident that the exclusive reason for his termination was poor performance.

There is a difference between being fired for good/bad/any/no reason(s) and being fired "for cause." No matter how robust your argument is on the former, it doesn't give you license to ignore the latter, so that's what I asked you about.

I am not ignoring the fact that violations occurred - they did. I am simply saying that those violations were merely the public reasoning the school gave for his firing, so they did not have to pay him the remainder. We all know that he got fired for the team's losing record and poor performance. If those reasons fall under the *for cause* definition, then the school owes him nothing. I just don't like the false narrative that the school let him him go for x/y/z violations, when they really let him go because he was losing and the fan base was irate. The way things played out, it was as if UCONN wanted to fire him, did so, and then went and found reasons to justify it when the real reason was losing. Where I work, this is like my boss firing me because I stink at my job, but then the company realizes it doesn't have to pay me a severance if they can prove I was doing things that they kinda sorta thought I was doing while employed, but never truly looked into, prior to firing me.

 

[CL82]

FWIW, I don't believe for a second the narrative that KO is stuck at $10M and won't budge. I'd expect the real number to be significant discount.

FWIW, I don't believe for a second the narrative that UConn is stuck at $0 and won't budge either. Of the two parties I suspect that UConn is less likely to have unreasonable expectations.

 

[XLCenterFan]

When it was all playing out, I thought the school looked far worse than KO. I thought to myself: "are they really going to try to do him like this?"

 

[CL82]

I just don't like the false narrative that the school let him him go for x/y/z violations, when they really let him go because he was losing and the fan base was irate.

And you are basing that interpretation of the events on what exactly? FWIW "everyone knows" is code for "uh, I just made it up."

When it was all playing out, I thought the school looked far worse than KO. I thought to myself: "are they really going to try to do him like this?"

You mean hold him to the terms of the multimillion dollar contract that was negotiated by his attorney and signed by Ollie? Uh, yeah they are going to "do him like that."

 

[freescooter]

I think that Ollie's experience at UConn looks very different to people in coaching and the business of basketball.

Ollie showed incredible loyalty to UConn when he didn't bolt after the 2014 championship and decided to stay at a school that had received a virtual permanent exile from big time basketball when we got left behind in the AAC. The AAC was a death sentence for UConn athletics. Most of the world recognized that there was no way the athletic program could be successful as the northern outlier in a southern mid-major conference. I think Ollie, who won a National Championship as an assistant in 2011 and another one as a Head Coach in 2014, had a big enough ego that he thought that he could pull off being the Gonzaga of the AAC.

Ollie was wrong. He chased recruits that he could have easily closed in the Big East, but didn't want to play at a mid-major, and then he ended up scrambling for players like Gilbert that were literally damaged goods. Even a lot of the players he closed decided they didn't want to be at a cold weather school that had been bounced out of the big time. Ollie should have better calibrated which recruits he could close at a program that was sliding down the basketball hierarchy, but there isn't a text book for managing a program down the path to irrelevancy. The closest historical comparable was Houston post-Guy Lewis and post-SWC, and Houston didn't manage it well either.

NO UCONN COACH could have maintained any level of success in the AAC. This conference was going to destroy UConn athletics, and even though we are going back to the big time, it may be too late. Ollie was a casualty of the conference debacle as much as anything, and I will not hold him completely responsible for UConn basketball's decline post-2014.

Then, after all that, UConn walks away from a contract that it had promised Ollie when he had a lot of other offers. That will leave a bad taste in a lot of people's mouth, like Caron's.

What a load of crap. Total and utter drivel. UConn was coming off 2 national championships in 4 years, one ostensibly under Ollie. And the top teams in the AAC were very good. Better than UConn. And good coaches build good programs wherever they are. Or have you never heard of Wichita State or Gonzaga or for that matter Xavier which became a power in the a10 Or Creighton which became one in the MVC. That Ollie couldn’t capitalize is on Ollie not the league.

as for Butler, he should just shut up being that he didn’t play or coach with Ollie At U Conn.

 

[XLCenterFan]

And you are basing that interpretation of the events on what exactly? FWIW "everyone knows" is code for "uh, I just made it up."

KO was losing. Husky Nation wanted him gone. They fired him. Then UCONN tells us they fired him for NCAA violations. No, you didn't, you fired him because the fan base was upset and the team was losing.

 

[UConnJim]

Ok, fill in the blank.

It will be __________ for UCONN to beat lower ranked teams (or any team) as a member of the AAC, when compared to being a member of the BE.

a-easier
b-harder
c-just as easy

I disagree with the premise of your poll. UConn could have been a basketball power in the American, but Ollie couldn't get the job done for a number of reasons.

First, let's look at recruiting. UConn went to the American in 2013/2014 and won the National Championship that year. The 2014 class brought in Hamilton, the #17 recruit. In 2015, Ollie brought in Adams #23 and Enoch #84. In 2016, Ollie brought in the #8 class with #32 Gilbert, #50 Durham, #77 Jackson, #126 Diarra, and #166 Vital. So, UConn was in the AAC since 2013 and recruits knew about the move 2 years earlier, yet Ollie brought in 6 top 100 recruits in 3 years. UConn went 16-17 in the 2016/2017 season as the wheels were falling off the bus and recruiting sank with the performance.

The transfers. In one year, UConn lost Enoch, Durham, and Jackson. Ollie lost them.

The injuries. Maybe Ollie should have seen it during recruiting, but injuries to Gilbert, Larrier, Diarra, and Durham depleted UConn's talent.

Fan support. I'll break it to you. If you have a losing and uninspired team, fans will not come. That is for any sport and any team. If UConn was beating up on AAC teams and making runs in the NCAA Tournament, fan support would be OK although probably not as strong as in the Big East as Big East teams brought fans to the games and AAC teams did not.

If UConn won and Ollie stayed focus, there is no reason to believe that UConn wouldn't have remained a top 20 program in the AAC.

Finally, UConn is moving to the Big East and we have a new coach in Danny Hurley. Recruiting is improving, but it has not recovered to the early days in the AAC. Ollie brought in a top 32 recruit in 3 straight classes in the AAC, but Hurley has not done that yet. The problem has not been the conference, although I support the move to the Big East, but UConn basketball has stunk and it has been out of the conversation for too long. If Hurley wins, recruiting will improve and UConn basketball will return to the conversation.

 

[CL82]

KO was losing. Husky Nation wanted him gone. They fired him. Then they tell us they fired him for NCAA violations. No, you didn't, you fired him because the fan base was upset and the team was losing.

Husky nation didn't fire KO nor did I, UConn did. They wrote to him and outlined the basis for his dismissal. The facts contained therein were investigated and verified by an independent third party.

So do you have anything other than your imagination that says otherwise?

 

[XLCenterFan]

Husky nation didn't fire KO nor did I, UConn did. They wrote to him and outlined the basis for his dismissal. The facts contained therein were investigated and verified by an independent third party.

So do you have anything other than your imagination that says otherwise?

Yes. What I am saying is that he would have been fired with or without the violations - they weren't the real reason for him being relieved of his job. So to say that they were, in order to not pay him, is BS.

 

[CL82]

Yes. What I am saying is that he would have been fired with or without the violations - they weren't the real reason for him being relieved of his job. So to say that they were, in order to not pay him, is BS.

So you have nothing, other than your imagination, to back up that statement. I see.

 

[XLCenterFan]

I can't believe the responses I've gotten concerning the drop off in conferences affecting our ability to win. People seem to think that it's easy to tell a recruit: "we play UCF, Tulane, and Tulsa, we don't get any major TV games, and we play our conference tourney in Orlando," when other schools have much more to offer. It will undoubtedly affect the ability to recruit, and thus win.

 

[XLCenterFan]

So you have nothing, other than your imagination, to back up that statement. I see.

The majority of UCONN fans that I speak with all know why KO got fired, and it wasn't for violations. The violations were the public excuse/reasoning that the school gave.

 

[CL82]

The majority of UCONN fans that I speak with all know why KO got fired, and it wasn't for violations. The violations were the public excuse/reasoning that the school gave.

So you are back to saying "everybody knows" which is a tacit admission that you have no facts.

"It's okay you can admit it. We all know."

 

[fatlucy]

I am not ignoring the fact that violations occurred - they did. I am simply saying that those violations were merely the public reasoning the school gave for his firing, so they did not have to pay him the remainder. We all know that he got fired for the team's losing record and poor performance. If those reasons fall under the *for cause* definition, then the school owes him nothing. I just don't like the false narrative that the school let him him go for x/y/z violations, when they really let him go because he was losing and the fan base was irate. The way things played out, it was as if UCONN wanted to fire him, did so, and then went and found reasons to justify it when the real reason was losing. Where I work, this is like my boss firing me because I stink at my job, but then the company realizes it doesn't have to pay me a severance if they can prove I was doing things that they kinda sorta thought I was doing while employed, but never truly looked into, prior to firing me.

Yup. Nothing wrong with that if you were screwing off.

 

[mrl2016]

The way things played out, it was as if UCONN wanted to fire him, did so, and then went and found reasons to justify it when the real reason was losing. Where I work, this is like my boss firing me because I stink at my job, but then the company realizes it doesn't have to pay me a severance if they can prove I was doing things that they kinda sorta thought I was doing while employed, but never truly looked into, prior to firing me.

A more apt analogy. Employee sucks at their job. Boss want to fire but can’t afford to hire a new employee AND pay severance. Boss is forced to keep employee until employee harasses a coworker. Boss no longer has to pay severance and can afford to let him go.

Ollie wouldn’t have been fired if he didn’t break the rules. Period.

 

[XLCenterFan]

A more apt analogy. Employee sucks at their job. Boss want to fire but can’t afford to hire a new employee AND pay severance. Boss is forced to keep employee until employee harasses a coworker. Boss no longer has to pay severance and can afford to let him go.

Ollie wouldn’t have been fired if he didn’t break the rules. Period.

A great analogy, but I believe that KO was gone, regardless of the violations.

 

[XLCenterFan]

So you are back to saying "everybody knows" which is a tacit admission that you have no facts.

"It's okay you can admit it. We all know."

Do you work for the University in some capacity? I feel like I'm dealing with UCONN's public relations department. Maybe you're on the AAUP legal team?

 

[Madmannsucks]

Who on the board has turned on Caron Butler?

And it is starting-"as for Butler, he should just shut up being that he didn’t play or coach with Ollie At U Conn. "
From Freescooter.

 

[XLCenterFan]

So you are back to saying "everybody knows" which is a tacit admission that you have no facts.

"It's okay you can admit it. We all know."

And the facts were the teams record, tournament performance, attendance, and thousands of irate emails from the fan base to the athletic department. Oh, and then there were those violations.

 

[Steelerone]

If Kevin Ollie had not been so connected to the team as a former student and player things may, I repeat, may have been different. As it is there was an emotional attachment between Ollie and fans from the teams he played on including those students who attended the school during his student years. There is no doubt in my mind that if all parties involved could have a do over that things would have been resolved differently. If you are looking for the "bad guy" in this situation it had to be the athletic director's poor mismanagement.

 

[8893]

FWIW, I don't believe for a second the narrative that UConn is stuck at $0 and won't budge either. Of the two parties I suspect that UConn is less likely to have unreasonable expectations.

Oh I’m assuming UConn made offers and never meant to suggest that I thought they were being unreasonable or unrealistic because I don’t know any details to make such a judgment.

I do get the sense that their financial constraints and public disclosure requirements are driving the strategy and that they may have underestimated the ripple effect with other former players and how much collateral damage that could do to the program and the brand. I don’t know how to value that but I know it has value, and if I was running this like a business, which I would hope someone is, I would try to gauge that and factor it into my analysis.

 

[huskyinfl]

No. I have a life. What is strange about saying that a man controls his life and can shape his own future? Lunacy is what this place has become step away for a minute and then come back.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

And it is starting-"as for Butler, he should just shut up being that he didn’t play or coach with Ollie At U Conn. "
From Freescooter.

Mistake #1 is reading freescooter's posts.