Caron Butler on how former players view UConn

[CL82]

The bottom line is Ollie got fired for losing and the school blamed it on minor violations. Pay the damn guy and let's move on!

You must realize that that is a flat out false statement, right?

Kevin Ollie repeated broke NCAA rules in violation of his contract. He repeatedly lied to his bosses about it and then repeatedly lied to the NCAA about it. His violations caused two UConn players to be declared ineligible for games and caused the school to be sanctioned. Kevin received a 3 year show cause penalty. That isn't a sanction given for "minor violations."

Ollie is family, right? Families don't pull this stuff on each other. I have Ollie's back in this spot.

I'm sure he's grateful for your support.

This is $10M business contract not cousin Jimmy scratching uncle Wally's car. But let's go with your analogy. Do families publicly accuse each of racism? Do families threaten to smear a beloved Hall of Fame coach's reputation unless they get a payoff? There is a villain in all this but it isn't UConn.

 

[XLCenterFan]

You must realize that that is a flat out false statement, right?

Kevin Ollie repeated broke NCAA rules in violation of his contract. He repeatedly lied to his bosses about it and then repeatedly lied to the NCAA about it. His violations caused two UConn players to be declared ineligible for games and caused the school to be sanctioned. Kevin received a 3 year show cause penalty. That isn't a sanction given for "minor violations."

It's not a false statement. It's literally what happened. I may have mischaracterized the violations as minor, which I could be wrong about, but everyone knows he didn't get fired for the violations. He got fired for losing. Having had this conversation with countless fans of the program, I always thought that this was just common knowledge. I have yet to hear anyone agree with the statement: "KO got fired for violations." We all know why he got fired.

 

[Watchdog]

You should set them straight.

Already have, as I'm sure they read the Boneyard to revel in your snarky comments.

 

[CL82]

It's not a false statement. It's literally what happened. I may have mischaracterized the violations as minor, which I could be wrong about, but everyone knows he didn't get fired for the violations. He got fired for losing. Having had this conversation with countless fans of the program, I always thought that this was just common knowledge. I have yet to hear anyone agree with the statement: "KO got fired for violations." We all know why he got fired.

I disagree. The pattern of behavior - repeated NCAA violations and repeated lies to the administration would have led to Ollie's firing regardless. The NCAA would have kneecapped us otherwise. Ever hear of the failure to monitor penalty? Best case scenario, that's a level II violation, but under these circumstances without taking corrective action it would be a level I and for a school that has already been sanctioned previously it would have been devastating.

But as @HuskyHawk pointed out it's irrelevant whether UConn would have fired him if he was winning. KO had breached his contract in a way that he was not legally entitled to get paid. If you are going to suck at your job, it's best not breach your contract so you can be let go for cause.

FWIW, if you have to say that KO's violation were minor to make your point, you don't have one.

 

[XLCenterFan]

I disagree. The pattern of behavior - repeated NCAA violations and repeated lies to the administration would have led to Ollie's firing regardless. The NCAA would have kneecapped us otherwise. Ever hear of the failure to monitor penalty? Best case scenario, that's a level II violation, but under these circumstances without taking corrective action it would be a level I and for a school that has already been sanctioned previously it would have been devastating.

But as @HuskyHawk pointed out it's irrelevant whether UConn would have fired him if he was winning. KO had breached his contract in way that he was not legally entitled to get paid. If you are going to suck at your job, it's best not breach your contract so you can be let go for cause.

FWIW, if you have to say that KO's violation were minor to make your point, you don't have one.

So you can say with a straight face, and believe it in your heart, that KO got fired for violations?

He would have been let go with or without the violations. Had he been winning, we would have defended his violations. Therefore, we fired him for losing, and shouldn't blame it on violations. To end this mess, just pay him and call it a lesson learned. No one in this situation looks good anymore...not even us on the BY! lol

 

[Madmannsucks]

I like the fact that we can re debate the KO firing-best past is all the new slants on it. NOT!!!!

 

[CL82]

So you can say with a straight face, and believe it in your heart, that KO got fired for violations?

Yep, but that point is irrelevant to analysis of whether or not he was entitled to payment. Good rule of thumb when your employer says don't this or we will fire you, don't do it.

 

[aceboon]

Probably. If you listen to the podcast Caron didn't even know when UConn games were on. But he's going to know whats going on behind the scenes.

That you could make the leap to say you know KO more than the ex players who know him in on a personal level is wild as hell to me.

 

[pepband99]

Why don't you pick a coherent position, and then we can debate. On one hand, the current players are bad, but apparently the recruiting under Ollie was excellent. Which is it?

And are you arguing the AAC was good for UConn basketball?

Utterly amazing that the king of the incoherent strawman uses coherent in a sentence.
He's not saying anything about the players - he's saying you're wrong, again. And you're coming back with a strawman, again...

 

[XLCenterFan]

Yep, but that point is irrelevant to analysis of whether or not he was entitled to payment. Good rule of thumb when your employer says don't this or we will fire you, don't do it.

I don't believe you - you know he got fired for losing...but I enjoy the healthy and friendly discussion/debate.

 

[gampelcrazies]

That you could make the leap to say you know KO more than the ex players who know him in on a personal level is wild as hell to me.

You really think Caron was that close to KO? I understand why he sticks up for him because he's a "UConn brother". But he hasn't been around all the much to understand the situation.

Ray Allen on the other hand was always close to KO because they played together and he was a part of the foundation.

I've talked with people close to the program. I think they know more than Caron Butler.

 

[Silky J]

You talk such nonsense, where was Ollie going to leave to after 2014? Ollie didn't scramble for Gilbert and he wasn't damaged goods. Gilbert was a healthy McDonald's All-American type player when Ollie secured his pledge.

What are all these other offers Ollie had? UConn walked away from the contract because Ollie broke the terms of the contract by breaking NCAA rules, lying about it to UConn and the NCAA and he stopped doing his job.

Lakers were in the mix

 

[XLCenterFan]

Lakers were in the mix

Wasn't the head/assistant coaching job at OKC in the mix?

 

[Excalibur]

Why don't you pick a coherent position, and then we can debate. On one hand, the current players are bad, but apparently the recruiting under Ollie was excellent. Which is it?

And are you arguing the AAC was good for UConn basketball?

Why don't you pay attention to what people say vs. what they don't say?

 

[HuskyHawk]

I don't believe you - you know he got fired for losing...but I enjoy the healthy and friendly discussion/debate.

Why he was fired is irrelevant. Since he breached his contract they don't have to pay him. If they couldn't have fired him for cause, my guess is he would get another year. So I don't understand your argument. But they could, so they did.

 

[XLCenterFan]

Why he was fired is irrelevant. Since he breached his contract they don't have to pay him. If they couldn't have fired him for cause, my guess is he would get another year. So I don't understand your argument. But they could, so they did.

To me, it matters somewhat. UCONN fired KO for losing. UCONN said they fired KO for breach of contract. If they said they fired him for losing, they would owe him his money. If they said they fired him for breach of contract, they don't owe him his money. I don't like that UCONN is putting up this charade of firing him for breach of contract when we all know he was losing his job for losing. I also don't like that Ollie is often blamed for the losing, when we all knew the realty of playing in the American - less talent, less TV time, less fanbase interest - which eventually led to less winning. This whole situation is just a mess. With us going back into the BE, it's like a fresh start. We need to get rid of this storm cloud, and I feel the best way to do so is to just pay him off and we go our separate ways. They are squabbling over amounts that are relatively small compared to the budgets of the state/school/athletic dept., and while this stays in court, it is costing everyone resources (including our time/energy here on the BY!). Let's move on.

 

[Hans Sprungfeld]

Who on the board has turned on Caron Butler?

Who turned on "Rashard"?

 

[BlueMAB]

I also don't like that Ollie is often blamed for the losing, when we all knew the realty of playing in the American - less talent, less TV time, less fanbase interest - which eventually led to less winning.

The guy lost to Wagner and Northeastern in back to back games. What conferences do they play in?

 

[XLCenterFan]

The guy lost to Wagner and Northeastern in back to back games. What conferences do they play in?

So you are arguing that moving from the BE to the AAC would not diminish anything about our program, including the ability to recruit and win? As soon as I heard the news, my expectations were tamed concerning what UCONN hoops was going to be capable of.

 

[BlueMAB]

To me, it matters somewhat. UCONN fired KO for losing. UCONN said they fired KO for breach of contract. If they said they fired him for losing, they would owe him his money. If they said they fired him for breach of contract, they don't owe him his money. I don't like that UCONN is putting up this charade of firing him for breach of contract when we all know he was losing his job for losing. I also don't like that Ollie is often blamed for the losing, when we all knew the realty of playing in the American - less talent, less TV time, less fanbase interest - which eventually led to less winning. This whole situation is just a mess. With us going back into the BE, it's like a fresh start. We need to get rid of this storm cloud, and I feel the best way to do so is to just pay him off and we go our separate ways. They are squabbling over amounts that are relatively small compared to the budgets of the state/school/athletic dept., and while this stays in court, it is costing everyone resources (including our time/energy here on the BY!). Let's move on.

We'll never know, but it's entirely plausible UConn doesn't fire him without the violations due to financial constraints. Seeing that they could get out of the contract because he breached it, that could have changed the decision.

If you're going to argue about the right vs. wrong things to do, you can't ignore the wrong that Ollie did to violate his contract. He put the money owed to him at risk with his actions. Putting this all on UConn as if they're just being cheap is disingenuous and hypocritical.

Had Ollie done the right thing and honored his contract, one of two things would have happened. He would have remained the coach, or he would have been fired and paid the $10MM.

 

[BlueMAB]

So you are arguing that moving from the BE to the AAC would not diminish anything about our program, including the ability to recruit and win? As soon as I heard the news, my expectations were tamed concerning what UCONN hoops was going to be capable of.

Are you arguing that moving to the AAC would remove any expectations of being able to beat Northeastern and/or Wagner at home?

 

[CL82]

I don't believe you - you know he got fired for losing...but I enjoy the healthy and friendly discussion/debate.

Lol feel free not to, but you're wrong. He got fired for repeatedly lying about NCAA violations and for repeated lying about them both to UConn and to the NCAA.

To me, it matters somewhat. UCONN fired KO for losing. UCONN said they fired KO for breach of contract. If they said they fired him for losing, they would owe him his money. If they said they fired him for breach of contract, they don't owe him his money. I don't like that UCONN is putting up this charade of firing him for breach of contract when we all know he was losing his job for losing. I also don't like that Ollie is often blamed for the losing, when we all knew the realty of playing in the American - less talent, less TV time, less fanbase interest - which eventually led to less winning. This whole situation is just a mess. With us going back into the BE, it's like a fresh start. We need to get rid of this storm cloud, and I feel the best way to do so is to just pay him off and we go our separate ways. They are squabbling over amounts that are relatively small compared to the budgets of the state/school/athletic dept., and while this stays in court, it is costing everyone resources (including our time/energy here on the BY!). Let's move on.

Lol it's always easy to pay people off with other people's money. As I've said previously, any UConn official who paid KO $10M he wasn't lawfully entitled to, should be fired. It just does not happen, anywhere. You keep trying to analogize this to something like you being made at your neighbor's kid for not mowing your yard. Under those circumstances, you pay the kid $50 anyways and tell him you've found someone else. The analysis is dramatically different for multimillion dollar contracts.

 

[XLCenterFan]

Are you arguing that moving to the AAC would remove any expectations of being able to beat Northeastern and/or Wagner at home?

Yes, that is precisely what I am arguing. But it wouldn't remove the expectations, just lower them.

I would argue that UCONN (or any school for that matter) is more likely to lose to a school like Northeastern or Wagner as a member of the AAC, then they would be as a member of the BE. It's just a hunch, but I bet a study could be done of "performance of random BE teams vs. random AAC teams, when playing at home vs. a certain RPI." I wish I had the time/resources.

 

[NC_Uconn_Fan]

Who cares, I only care about getting our program back to winning now. If Caron or Ray (and I love Ray) or any other ex player wants to distance themselves...Go ahead. For the love of God, can we please beat Tulane tonight.

 

[BlueMAB]

Yes, that is precisely what I am arguing. But it wouldn't remove the expectations, just lower them.

It's never acceptable to lose to Northeastern and Wagner in back to back games for a program like UConn.

That's a ridiculously low bar to set for a guy you think deserves $10mm for cheating AND losing.