Big XII Expansion 2024+ | Page 5 | The Boneyard

Big XII Expansion 2024+

TheCatsLair said:
Over the last 20 years, Cincinnati has been to the Orange, Sugar, and Peach Bowl and the CFP, Houston has been to the Peach Bowl and recently beat Auburn in a Bowl game, UCF during that stretch has been to two Fiesta Bowl and a Peach Bowl and beat Auburn, BYU has a national championship in its history. All three have had nationally ranked programs at some point in the last 3 years.

Outside of Utah's recent run and Fiesta Bowl run, which is not any better, and arguably not as good, as Cincinnati's back-to-back years of a Peach Bowl and CFP as well as the Sugar and Orange Bowls, what have Arizona, Arizona State and Colorado done that makes you laugh and spit up your water? Colorado has the same number of national championships as BYU and both titles came in the same time span, BYU's in '84 and Colorado's in '90.

I think people look at conferences and just assume that those schools are better than the Big 12 schools because they see Pac-12 beside their name.
Expand ...
The 4 corner schools are better schools and better brands. They may not have had the same recent success (I haven't looked up their records) and I give AAC programs all the credit in the world, but to say the AAC programs have cache while the 4 corners don't is just silly. They've been playing in the PAC 12 against USC, UCLA, Oregon, Washington. Whatever the difference, there was a difference between P5 and G5. The PAC 12 top to bottom is much better than the AAC.
 
UConnJim said:
Look, it's great that Cincinnati got a ticket out of the AAC to the Big 12, but you are not correct.

First, we'll start with spending. Cincinnati is like UConn - high institutional subsidies. In FY 2020 and FY 2021, Cincinnati had institutional subsidies of $30.4 million and $27.1 million respectively. And, that is with underfunding Olympic sports. So, the $20 million increase in revenues from the Big 12 and the increase in travel costs will still leave Cincinnati requiring institutional subsidies. It's not clear how much additional funds are going to be available for investing unless they continue the high subsidies.

We have two recent examples of schools moving from the G5 to P5, Utah and TCU and one example of a school that moved to the Big 12, West Virginia. All three were doing well before moving conferences. Their first 2 season conference records? Utah: 4-5 and 3-6. TCU: 4-5 and 2-7. WVU: 4-5 and 2-7. Expect some rough first seasons.

And you say the 4 new adds to the Big 12 have more "football cache" than the Four Corner schools? Here are the all time football winning percentage ranks and all-time top 25 rankings:

Four Corners:
24. Arizona State (17)
27. Utah (11)
44. Colorado (20)
56. Arizona (7)

Four Big 12 adds:
34. BYU (19)
52. UCF (5)
63. Houston (15)
74. Cincinnati (8)

When I look at the list of schools, I would rank the top 4 football schools as Arizona St., Utah, BYU, and Colorado which is 3 of the 4 Corner schools.
Expand ...
Not sure why you are brining subsidies into this? The bottom line is that the schools moving into the Big12 have better positioned themselves on and off the field. As said above, if they have the right coaches, they can compete very nicely. They will make more money in the long run. A very nice cycle of positivism. We all wish UConn was in a similar situation.
 
It must suck so much to be UNM and hear about the “4C” schools.
 
UConnJim said:
Look, it's great that Cincinnati got a ticket out of the AAC to the Big 12, but you are not correct.

First, we'll start with spending. Cincinnati is like UConn - high institutional subsidies. In FY 2020 and FY 2021, Cincinnati had institutional subsidies of $30.4 million and $27.1 million respectively. And, that is with underfunding Olympic sports. So, the $20 million increase in revenues from the Big 12 and the increase in travel costs will still leave Cincinnati requiring institutional subsidies. It's not clear how much additional funds are going to be available for investing unless they continue the high subsidies.

We have two recent examples of schools moving from the G5 to P5, Utah and TCU and one example of a school that moved to the Big 12, West Virginia. All three were doing well before moving conferences. Their first 2 season conference records? Utah: 4-5 and 3-6. TCU: 4-5 and 2-7. WVU: 4-5 and 2-7. Expect some rough first seasons.

And you say the 4 new adds to the Big 12 have more "football cache" than the Four Corner schools? Here are the all time football winning percentage ranks and all-time top 25 rankings:

Four Corners:
24. Arizona State (17)
27. Utah (11)
44. Colorado (20)
56. Arizona (7)

Four Big 12 adds:
34. BYU (19)
52. UCF (5)
63. Houston (15)
74. Cincinnati (8)

When I look at the list of schools, I would rank the top 4 football schools as Arizona St., Utah, BYU, and Colorado which is 3 of the 4 Corner schools.
Expand ...
You lost me at "travel costs." Have you looked at the AAC?

Cincinnati plays in Houston, Dallas, Oklahoma, Philadelphia, two cities in Florida, Louisiana, Memphis.
In the Big 12 they play in Houston, Dallas, Oklahoma, West Virginia, one city in Florida, Kansas and Iowa. Not sure how that is worse at all. Very occasionally they'll play in Utah. Conference tourney in KC instead of Fort Worth (KC is a lot closer.)
 
CTFAN4LIFE said:
Not sure why you are brining subsidies into this? The bottom line is that the schools moving into the Big12 have better positioned themselves on and off the field. As said above, if they have the right coaches, they can compete very nicely. They will make more money in the long run. A very nice cycle of positivism. We all wish UConn was in a similar situation.
Expand ...
Why bring in subsidies? Because people are saying that Cincy will be able to invest more in athletics when the administration is saying they want to reduce the subsidy. Thus, how can Cincy invest more in athletics if the conference money goes to reducing the deficit?
 
UConnJim said:
Why bring in subsidies? Because people are saying that Cincy will be able to invest more in athletics when the administration is saying they want to reduce the subsidy. Thus, how can Cincy invest more in athletics if the conference money goes to reducing the deficit?
Expand ...
Almost all schools with major sports programs have some sort of subsidy. In 3 years when they're getting 40MM from the conference vs the 10MM now, they can reduce the subsidy by 20MM and invest 10MM more into olympic sports. Or they can eliminate the subsidy entirely. Then they'll start getting more playoff money and the payout will be 50MM. It's a good problem that I wish UConn had.
 
.-.
Slasher said:
Almost all schools with major sports programs have some sort of subsidy. In 3 years when they're getting 40MM from the conference vs the 10MM now, they can reduce the subsidy by 20MM and invest 10MM more into olympic sports. Or they can eliminate the subsidy entirely. Then they'll start getting more playoff money and the payout will be 50MM. It's a good problem that I wish UConn had.
Expand ...
Of course getting more money is a good situation. My point is that the extra revenues will not all go into investment. Their subsidy is about $30 million per year and they are expected to get $30 million of additional revenues, at least initially. In the current Big 12, the average subsidy excluding Texas, Oklahoma, and Baylor is close to zero. Don't get me wrong, UConn would be in the same situation and there would be incredible pressure to take the new revenue to decrease the subsidy.
 
Slasher said:
You lost me at "travel costs." Have you looked at the AAC?

Cincinnati plays in Houston, Dallas, Oklahoma, Philadelphia, two cities in Florida, Louisiana, Memphis.
In the Big 12 they play in Houston, Dallas, Oklahoma, West Virginia, one city in Florida, Kansas and Iowa. Not sure how that is worse at all. Very occasionally they'll play in Utah. Conference tourney in KC instead of Fort Worth (KC is a lot closer.)
Expand ...
Here's how travel costs go up for Cincy. The average flight distance increase in the Big 12 for Cincy is about 150 miles per school so that is some cost increase. The bigger issue for Cincy is that Olympic sports generally fly commercial and the Big 12 schools are not located in ideal locations for commercial flights relative to the AAC. In the Big 12, you have towns like Lubbock, TX, Waco, TX, Manhattan, KS, Ames, Iowa, Stillwater, Oklahoma.

The Cincinnati AD has already discussed the increase in travel costs:

On the increased travel/logistical costs in the Big 12:

"We've had a lot of discussions about that obviously over the last several months, and we know travel-wise there'll be some additional expenses. We know that we are going to have to step up in certain areas, and so we are starting to build that all out in a three- five- seven-year timeline in terms of how we budget this, but we expect to compete day one."
 
UConnJim said:
Here's how travel costs go up for Cincy. The average flight distance increase in the Big 12 for Cincy is about 150 miles per school so that is some cost increase. The bigger issue for Cincy is that Olympic sports generally fly commercial and the Big 12 schools are not located in ideal locations for commercial flights relative to the AAC. In the Big 12, you have towns like Lubbock, TX, Waco, TX, Manhattan, KS, Ames, Iowa, Stillwater, Oklahoma.

The Cincinnati AD has already discussed the increase in travel costs:

On the increased travel/logistical costs in the Big 12:

"We've had a lot of discussions about that obviously over the last several months, and we know travel-wise there'll be some additional expenses. We know that we are going to have to step up in certain areas, and so we are starting to build that all out in a three- five- seven-year timeline in terms of how we budget this, but we expect to compete day one."
Expand ...
Yes a few bus rides are going to be longer which will add "some" expense. I don't see any way it's more than a million dollars a year. This isn't a UCLA/USC type of situation. 50MM revenue vs <10MM revenue for a bit more in travel costs and a huge reduction is subsidy. Plus travel costs are increasing for everyone across the board. That's a much bigger concern for AAC or C-USA teams with far flung conferences and very little revenue coming in.
 
Slasher said:
Yes a few bus rides are going to be longer which will add "some" expense. I don't see any way it's more than a million dollars a year. This isn't a UCLA/USC type of situation. 50MM revenue vs <10MM revenue for a bit more in travel costs and a huge reduction is subsidy. Plus travel costs are increasing for everyone across the board. That's a much bigger concern for AAC or C-USA teams with far flung conferences and very little revenue coming in.
Expand ...
Some estimates are $2 to $3 million in additional travel costs, although the Cincy AD has not confirmed.
 
UConnJim said:
Some estimates are $2 to $3 million in additional travel costs, although the Cincy AD has not confirmed.
Expand ...
Who's estimates? There's just no freaking way. The AAC is nearly equally as bad for Cincinnati as the Big 12. The closest trip for Cincinnati right now is what Memphis at 500 miles away? Now at least they have West Virginia (300 miles.) I get how it would cost UConn $2-3MM in the Big 12 vs the Big East. Is that maybe where you saw that figure?
 
Slasher said:
Who's estimates? There's just no freaking way. The AAC is nearly equally as bad for Cincinnati as the Big 12. The closest trip for Cincinnati right now is what Memphis at 500 miles away? Now at least they have West Virginia (300 miles.) I get how it would cost UConn $2-3MM in the Big 12 vs the Big East. Is that maybe where you saw that figure?
Expand ...
Honestly, I really don't care and we will find out soon enough, but I'll give you one more response.

First, the average school in the Big 12 is 150 miles further from Cincinnati than in the AAC and a charter can be $15k to $25k per hour. Next, most teams do not fly charter and many of the Big 12 schools can not be reached by direct flight or they require a 1 hour+ bus ride from the airport. All AAC schools were direct flights from Cincinnati, except Wichita St., although you did have to drive to ECU from Raleigh. Finally, there is a balance between cost and time. Do you spend more money on travel to reduce the amount of class time kids miss? Seems that is the plan.
 
.-.
WestHartHusk said:
It must suck so much to be UNM and hear about the “4C” schools.
Expand ...
I'm curious as to the population growth of the four states from 1960 to today. I could be wrong but I believe New Mexico lags substantially behind the other three in this.
 
Kansas chatter. It seems everyone is wasting just as much time as we are on this. I have no idea if this guy is right but UConn is being discussed, which is nice.

"If we speculate that the 4 corners, Gonzaga, Villanova, UCONN (bball only), and pick one other Big East school get offered to join, Fox would replace the inventory it needs from the Big East post-2025 (as they have also gained more inventory with the inclusion of UCLA and USC, and possibly Oregon and Washington if the PAC collapses). They wouldn’t need to bid on re-upping the Big East deal in 2025 having grabbed the best inventory to pair up with current Big 12 teams. Fox would pony up an extra $88 mil per year (for the 8 total new schools, and ESPN would do $80 mil per year extra for the 4 new all sports schools, or perhaps they split the costs on the basketball only schools). So the 16 football schools would all still get their $31 mil, and the 4 new bball only schools would get $11 mil per year which is a nice bump for each of them."

247sports.com

Realignment MEGA thread (f.k.a. Texas Oklahoma reach out to SEC)

Realignment MEGA thread (f.k.a. Texas Oklahoma reach out to SEC)
247sports.com 247sports.com
 
.-.
FfldCntyFan said:
I'm curious as to the population growth of the four states from 1960 to today. I could be wrong but I believe New Mexico lags substantially behind the other three in this.
Expand ...
Let’s just say NM is not a place where people want to move to. You are correct about the states around them.
 
.-.
WestHartHusk said:
I could see something in between. All sports, football with a minimum of a permanent scheduling arrangement minimum. You’d have to strongly consider it.
Expand ...

Kudos for coming up with something more illogical than the basketball-only line of thought.
 
Fishy said:
Kudos for coming up with something more illogical than the basketball-only line of thought.
Expand ...
Is that really that crazy? Two home and homes a year? Should be very doable.
 
noeynox said:
Is that really that crazy? Two home and homes a year? Should be very doable.
Expand ...

Why would the Big 12 be remotely interested in that? Why would we be remotely interested in that?

We’re going to leave the Big East for that? Come on.
 
.-.
You must log in or register to reply here.

Forum statistics

Threads
168,359
Messages
4,567,528
Members
10,469
Latest member
xxBlueChips


Top Bottom