Astros/Red Sox Cheating Scandal

[the Q]

Why is stealing signals against the rules? Use better signals.

Stealing signs is not against the rule. Using technology to steal signs is.

 

[Husky pride]

Oh cmon, please don’t play so naive and assume with today’s technology that none of the other 28 teams was doing anything similar. Especially an organization with the resources of the Yankees.

Will this tired excuse “Everybody does it” ever leave us? I can see it being used by my kids, but by adults looking for an “Out” that doesn’t rightfully exist is rather sad.

 

[Excalibur]

This must be why guys step out of the batters box so often because they’re waiting for the signal.
Moe important how does this impact my fantasy draft?

Guys stepping out on every pitch long predates this issue. In fact, the stepping out has become less prevalent.

There's still some investigating to do on the Red Sox side of things. I don't think they've closed the loop on transmitting signals in real time to hitters, but I admit I'm not completely up to speed on where things stand.

 

[Dogdeacon]

What a dumb situation on all sides. The cheating, the penalties, the individuals doing it and now MLB and its fans. This literally could be a plot from football and basketball to make baseball even less relevant.

Why anger is boiling behind the scenes about Houston Astros' sign-stealing punishments

MLB's discipline and the franchise's firing of its manager and GM made for a great show about taking a hard-line stance. But here's why many across baseball feel Houston's owner got off easy.

www.espn.com

 

[Husky25]

The Red Sox lost 3 games in the 2018 Playoffs, one in each series. Two of those losses were at Fenway.

Jackie Bradley Jr. hit .200 in the 5 game ALCS and his heroics mostly came in Minute Maid Park in games 3 and 4.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

After thinking about it the Braves punishment a few years ago over singing international prospects might be worse.

They lost the 9 guys they signed and $15 million they used to sign those players

For an infraction that by most accounts was an almost ubiquitous practice (bundling prospects). And the GM received a lifetime ban. It’s still a bit of a head-scratching punishment to me especially in light of the Astros punishment.

 

[superjohn]

The Red Sox lost 3 games in the 2018 Playoffs, one in each series. Two of those losses were at Fenway.

Jackie Bradley Jr. hit .200 in the 5 game ALCS and his heroics mostly came in Minute Maid Park in games 3 and 4.

That has nothing to do with anything.

 

[UConnStats]

Cora is going down and a very bad farm system will get worse.

At least they have Bloom now who doesn’t treat the farm like it’s a piggy bank. This year’s draft class is deep though, so it’s not ideal.

I don’t think they’ll get his as hard in the draft as the Astros did. Maybe one year of the same penalty or maybe lesser value picks.

Cora is obviously smoked. I can see Sam Fuld getting a shot. Big analytics guy, respected in Philly’s front office, and Bloom probably knows him from his time playing for the Rays. The Sox spend a lot, but they need to focus on value/and building the farm back up.

 

[The Viking]

And better hitters like Judge, Didi not having good years explain that one. And not for nothing if you watched Sanchez last year he looked like a guy who never knew what pitch was coming, ever! And you can blame the 28 HRs for gardner on HGH or something, thats rampant in the game all over anyway, but his crappy average once again shows he wasn't sure what was on it's way to the plate.

Love the effort though, if the Sox get caught everyone else is doing it. And the HR totals in the minors on Voit, want to go through yours? What has Pearce ever done until playing for the Sox? LOL

When the yankees were getting caught up in the steroid scandal you were saying the Sox and others were doing it...and you were right to your credit. What's the difference?
The yankees were using video back in 2015 to steal signs, you really think they've found God? They hired Beltran and all these no names go off.
I'm just saying it's rampant and it's reasonable to think that especially with Beltran in the fold they were doing stuff.

 

[Husky25]

That has nothing to do with anything.

Discount the fact that MLB personnel were in the video room during the playoffs, "...The Astros could only pull this off during home games (when they had access to the video feed). As a result, a number of Houston players had way better stats at home than on the road."

Stands to reason that the Red Sox could only "pull it off" at home as well.

Be that as it may, if Cora broke the rules in Boston and/or in Houston, he should get what he gets, especially if it is a written rule and his club was the reason for the original warning memo. Doesn't matter to me. It's all entertainment to me at this point.

I won't absolve MLB though. How in the world do the powers that be expect the franchises to self police in this fashion, less than two decades after a PED scandal that had it's roots in the early 1960s.

Unwritten rules are not rules and are not enforceable by a governing body. Unmonitored behavior is de facto allowable. MLB is being pretty hypocritical. If it were really important, they would station an MLB employee in each video room immediately following the first memo.

 

[superjohn]

When the yankees were getting caught up in the steroid scandal you were saying the Sox and others were doing it...and you were right to your credit. What's the difference?

You mean the George Mitchell (a Red Sox director) investigation that netted a bunch of Yankees and no Red Sox where we found out later just as many or more Red Sox were on steroids? That scandal?

The difference is that was a sham to target Yankees players and absolve Red Sox players.

Red Sox management taught Red Sox players how to use roids for crissakes.

 

[RipCity]

You mean the George Mitchell (a Red Sox director) investigation that netted a bunch of Yankees and no Red Sox where we found out later just as many or more Red Sox were on steroids? That scandal?

The difference is that was a sham to target Yankees players and absolve Red Sox players.

Red Sox management taught Red Sox players how to use roids for crissakes.

Getting major homer/conspiracy theorist vibes from you in this thread

 

[superjohn]

Getting major homer/conspiracy theorist vibes from you in this thread

What have I said that's untrue?

 

[UConn990411]

Getting major homer/conspiracy theorist vibes from you in this thread

He’s a massive Boston hater, so I’ve learned to ignore his posts on these subjects.

I don’t really have a problem with the MLB coming down hard on the Astros or Red Sox, but it’s comical how lightly the Cardinals got off for a hacking scandal that involved the FBI.

 

[Towney007]

I think the punishments are pretty over the top. Sign stealing has been going on for years and it was a matter of time before someone used cameras. I'm fine with baseball banning it, but the screeching over the integrity of the game, getting people fired and basically blackballed for life is bonkers to me. It's like giving someone life for their second pot offense.

Fine with imposing some sort of tax (that would really hurt a team - both financially and on the field) and even taking away picks. A few low level suspensions is fine. But this stuff seems like punishment fetish to me. I think the overall reaction to it has been completely insane and ultimately - it's going to do more to harm the game than help it.

My point being - i'm fine with them outlawing it, but jeez - let's relax a little. It's sign stealing, not something like say... beating your wife until she choked on her own teeth. Or hacking into another team's database and getting caught by the FBI.

As for what actually happens - while I don't think he should get iced for it - I think Cora's gonna get fired.

 

[RipCity]

What have I said that's untrue?

The Mitchell report didn’t intentionally exclude anyone

The Sox and Astros are guilty of two very different things and you seem to be trying to discredit the Sox WS run when there’s basically no proof of them doing anything of material impact during the playoff run in 2018. And there’s no way to quantify the impact of knowing a sign. If people want to complain about the Astros openly signaling right before pitches in a playoff series that the Yankees lost, that’s fair enough. But people keep whining about the Red Sox for something that every team in baseball was doing (including the Yankees, it’s just that they’re both among the teams that got snitched on). It didn’t win Boston a World Series.

Not necessarily aimed at you, but using a few games worth of numbers to justify an accusation of cheating is ridiculous. Anyone who has ever worked in a data driven job would tell you that there is zero credibility with that few points of data.

 

[Deepster]

I think the punishments are pretty over the top. Sign stealing has been going on for years and it was a matter of time before someone used cameras. I'm fine with baseball banning it, but the screeching over the integrity of the game, getting people fired and basically blackballed for life is bonkers to me. It's like giving someone life for their second pot offense.

Fine with imposing some sort of tax (that would really hurt a team - both financially and on the field) and even taking away picks. A few low level suspensions is fine. But this stuff seems like punishment fetish to me. I think the overall reaction to it has been completely insane and ultimately - it's going to do more to harm the game than help it.

My point being - i'm fine with them outlawing it, but jeez - let's relax a little. It's sign stealing, not something like say... beating your wife until she choked on her own teeth. Or hacking into another team's database and getting caught by the FBI.

As for what actually happens - while I don't think he should get iced for it - I think Cora's gonna get fired.

If they take your route, then teams like the Sox and Astros become the Patriots. Okay with cheating because the fine and minimal suspensions are far outweighed by the team winning Super Bowls.

 

[superjohn]

The Mitchell report didn’t intentionally exclude anyone

The Sox and Astros are guilty of two very different things and you seem to be trying to discredit the Sox WS run when there’s basically no proof of them doing anything of material impact during the playoff run in 2018. And there’s no way to quantify the impact of knowing a sign. If people want to complain about the Astros openly signaling right before pitches in a playoff series that the Yankees lost, that’s fair enough. But people keep whining about the Red Sox for something that every team in baseball was doing (including the Yankees, it’s just that they’re both among the teams that got snitched on). It didn’t win Boston a World Series.

Not necessarily aimed at you, but using a few games worth of numbers to justify an accusation of cheating is ridiculous. Anyone who has ever worked in a data driven job would tell you that there is zero credibility with that few points of data.

How did the Mitchell Report not intentionally exclude anyone when not a single Red Sox player was on the report and a bunch of them were taking steroids. There's no way you're this naive.

Back up what you say? I said the Astros should be stripped of their World Series and it should he given to the Dodgers. I said Alex Cora was the ringleader. I said if Alex Cora was doing similar stuff in Boston they should strip their World Series as well and give it to the Dodgers. It seems there is enough there to know Cora was doing some kind of cheating with the Red Sox but we don't know the extent of it, that's why they're being investigated.

I haven't used any #'s because it doesn't matter.

 

[RipCity]

How did the Mitchell Report not intentionally exclude anyone when not a single Red Sox player was on the report and a bunch of them were taking steroids. There's no way you're this naive.

Back up what you say? I said the Astros should be stripped of their World Series and it should he given to the Dodgers. I said Alex Cora was the ringleader. I said if Alex Cora was doing similar stuff in Boston they should strip their World Series as well and give it to the Dodgers. It seems there is enough there to know Cora was doing some kind of cheating with the Red Sox but we don't know the extent of it, that's why they're being investigated.

I haven't used any #'s because it doesn't matter.

The Red Sox aren’t even being accused of what the Astros did. So the “if” in your statement is a fantasy. Cora cheated both places so he’s cooked, but the extent of the cheating isn’t going to be comparable between the two teams.

The conflict of interest in the Mitchell report has been written about so many times. Mitchell wasn't the only one who saw the list, you’d be talking about multiple people being complicit in what would eventually qualify as perjury. There also was Red Sox players listed, despite your insisting to the contrary. There were more Yankees players listed, but a lot of them were stars they acquired who began their careers elsewhere like Clemens, Justice, Giambi, etc. It doesn’t imply that the Yankees were any more guilty of something systemic than any other team and it didn’t make any team look like a bunch of angels either.

But to wrap this up, I was just busting your balls with my original poke at you. Could have chosen about half the people in this thread.

 

[jibsey]

Let’s wait for the report on the Red Sox and Cora before concluding anything. When is it likely to go down?

 

[Towney007]

If they take your route, then teams like the Sox and Astros become the Patriots. Okay with cheating because the fine and minimal suspensions are far outweighed by the team winning Super Bowls.

I've just cared so little about sign stealing over the years, I'm not even sure where to start. It's impact on the game is entirely unproveable and mostly overblown. To the degree that I was more surprised the Astros spent as much time and effort to do it at that level. I just don't think it's that impactful. If you're gonna cheat - there's better things to spend your time on.

But teams do it, it's mostly gamesmanship and honestly I've never thought of it as some game-demolishing, morality laden crisis. Teams are always going to use cameras and surveillance to spy on each other. That's just reality. Even with this suspension. Make it costly if teams get caught doing it past a certain point; but the idea this is going to have some sort of dramatic, cascading effect on the integrity of the game - I think - it being really dramatic about it.

Suspending guys a year and basically getting them blackballed and THEN ON TOP OF IT - calling for titles to be vacated is insanity. It's an extreme overreaction.

To me - this whole thing seems to be less about the sign stealing - and more about them blatantly blowing off the commissioner's office.

 

[nomar]

If you remove Mookie’s 2018 season he turns into a career .290 hitter. I also find it ironic how Altuve (2017) and Betts (2018) won MVP with ridiculously good numbers and high BA’s.

And what if you remove the season where he hit .264?

Do you find it ironic that he hit .318 with 31 homers and 113 RBI, with an .897 OPS, two years earlier?

The Sox are gonna take their licking, as they should, but let's not pretend Mookie Betts isn't good.

 

[Deepster]

I've just cared so little about sign stealing over the years, I'm not even sure where to start. It's impact on the game is entirely unproveable and mostly overblown. To the degree that I was more surprised the Astros spent as much time and effort to do it at that level. I just don't think it's that impactful. If you're gonna cheat - there's better things to spend your time on.

But teams do it, it's mostly gamesmanship and honestly I've never thought of it as some game-demolishing, morality laden crisis. Teams are always going to use cameras and surveillance to spy on each other. That's just reality. Even with this suspension. Make it costly if teams get caught doing it past a certain point; but the idea this is going to have some sort of dramatic, cascading effect on the integrity of the game - I think - it being really dramatic about it.

Suspending guys a year and basically getting them blackballed and THEN ON TOP OF IT - calling for titles to be vacated is insanity. It's an extreme overreaction.

To me - this whole thing seems to be less about the sign stealing - and more about them blatantly blowing off the commissioner's office.

I don't disagree. But why does Bill Belichick need to film the Bengals sidelines?

 

[HuskyHawk]

The Red Sox lost 3 games in the 2018 Playoffs, one in each series. Two of those losses were at Fenway.

Jackie Bradley Jr. hit .200 in the 5 game ALCS and his heroics mostly came in Minute Maid Park in games 3 and 4.

Did anybody even read Ken Rosenthal's article? The sign stealing did not occur in the playoffs as MLB monitored the video replay rooms.

It seems that @mauconnfan didn't read it, or the quotes I posted showing that the Yankees were clearly doing this back to 2017. It doesn't excuse anything the Red Sox did, and certainly not the Astros who took it to another level, but way more than those two teams discovered and used this "cheat".

 

[superjohn]

The Red Sox aren’t even being accused of what the Astros did. So the “if” in your statement is a fantasy. Cora cheated both places so he’s cooked, but the extent of the cheating isn’t going to be comparable between the two teams.

The conflict of interest in the Mitchell report has been written about so many times. Mitchell wasn't the only one who saw the list, you’d be talking about multiple people being complicit in what would eventually qualify as perjury. There also was Red Sox players listed, despite your insisting to the contrary. There were more Yankees players listed, but a lot of them were stars they acquired who began their careers elsewhere like Clemens, Justice, Giambi, etc. It doesn’t imply that the Yankees were any more guilty of something systemic than any other team and it didn’t make any team look like a bunch of angels either.

But to wrap this up, I was just busting your balls with my original poke at you. Could have chosen about half the people in this thread.

Who were the Red Sox players listed? I'm going off of memory but I don't remember anyone, there certainly wasn't any players of note when we know they had star players using.

Mitchell clearly focused his investigation on Brian McNamee and the Yankees and didn't look at the Red Sox, this makes him a fraud but I don't see the perjury.

 

[HuskyHawk]

I don't disagree. But why does Bill Belichick need to film the Bengals sidelines?

He doesn't and he didn't. Good grief. Get a grip.

 

[UConnStats]

using a few games worth of numbers to justify an accusation of cheating is ridiculous. Anyone who has ever worked in a data driven job would tell you that there is zero credibility with that few points of data.

A good number of baseball fans have come a long way with understanding this stuff, but the past couple of days have shown that the vast majority of the public doesn’t have a good grip on baseball statistics and certainly not credibility/SSS.

Did anybody even read Ken Rosenthal's article? The sign stealing did not occur in the playoffs as MLB monitored the video replay rooms.

It seems that @mauconnfan didn't read it, or the quotes I posted showing that the Yankees were clearly doing this back to 2017. It doesn't excuse anything the Red Sox did, and certainly not the Astros who took it to another level, but way more than those two teams discovered and used this "cheat".

It’s pretty clear most people haven’t read much other than other talking heads’ hot takes. Misinformation for days.

 

[superjohn]

I don't care about #'s because cheating is cheating but this does make me wonder a little about Springer. He's one of the best fastball hitters in baseball but it almost looked liike he had a cheat code against the Dodgers.

 

[Husky25]

Did anybody even read Ken Rosenthal's article? The sign stealing did not occur in the playoffs as MLB monitored the video replay rooms.

It seems that @mauconnfan didn't read it, or the quotes I posted showing that the Yankees were clearly doing this back to 2017. It doesn't excuse anything the Red Sox did, and certainly not the Astros who took it to another level, but way more than those two teams discovered and used this "cheat".

I referenced that in a subsequent post.

 

[GemParty]

I don't care about #'s because cheating is cheating but this does make me wonder a little about Springer. He's one of the best fastball hitters in baseball but it almost looked liike he had a cheat code against the Dodgers.

A number of hitters, who are analysts now, have said it’s like having the answers to a test. If you know it’s a fastball, all you do is load and swing away.