Astros/Red Sox Cheating Scandal

[RipCity]

What have I said that's untrue?

The Mitchell report didn’t intentionally exclude anyone

The Sox and Astros are guilty of two very different things and you seem to be trying to discredit the Sox WS run when there’s basically no proof of them doing anything of material impact during the playoff run in 2018. And there’s no way to quantify the impact of knowing a sign. If people want to complain about the Astros openly signaling right before pitches in a playoff series that the Yankees lost, that’s fair enough. But people keep whining about the Red Sox for something that every team in baseball was doing (including the Yankees, it’s just that they’re both among the teams that got snitched on). It didn’t win Boston a World Series.

Not necessarily aimed at you, but using a few games worth of numbers to justify an accusation of cheating is ridiculous. Anyone who has ever worked in a data driven job would tell you that there is zero credibility with that few points of data.

 

[Deepster]

I think the punishments are pretty over the top. Sign stealing has been going on for years and it was a matter of time before someone used cameras. I'm fine with baseball banning it, but the screeching over the integrity of the game, getting people fired and basically blackballed for life is bonkers to me. It's like giving someone life for their second pot offense.

Fine with imposing some sort of tax (that would really hurt a team - both financially and on the field) and even taking away picks. A few low level suspensions is fine. But this stuff seems like punishment fetish to me. I think the overall reaction to it has been completely insane and ultimately - it's going to do more to harm the game than help it.

My point being - i'm fine with them outlawing it, but jeez - let's relax a little. It's sign stealing, not something like say... beating your wife until she choked on her own teeth. Or hacking into another team's database and getting caught by the FBI.

As for what actually happens - while I don't think he should get iced for it - I think Cora's gonna get fired.

If they take your route, then teams like the Sox and Astros become the Patriots. Okay with cheating because the fine and minimal suspensions are far outweighed by the team winning Super Bowls.

 

[superjohn]

The Mitchell report didn’t intentionally exclude anyone

The Sox and Astros are guilty of two very different things and you seem to be trying to discredit the Sox WS run when there’s basically no proof of them doing anything of material impact during the playoff run in 2018. And there’s no way to quantify the impact of knowing a sign. If people want to complain about the Astros openly signaling right before pitches in a playoff series that the Yankees lost, that’s fair enough. But people keep whining about the Red Sox for something that every team in baseball was doing (including the Yankees, it’s just that they’re both among the teams that got snitched on). It didn’t win Boston a World Series.

Not necessarily aimed at you, but using a few games worth of numbers to justify an accusation of cheating is ridiculous. Anyone who has ever worked in a data driven job would tell you that there is zero credibility with that few points of data.

How did the Mitchell Report not intentionally exclude anyone when not a single Red Sox player was on the report and a bunch of them were taking steroids. There's no way you're this naive.

Back up what you say? I said the Astros should be stripped of their World Series and it should he given to the Dodgers. I said Alex Cora was the ringleader. I said if Alex Cora was doing similar stuff in Boston they should strip their World Series as well and give it to the Dodgers. It seems there is enough there to know Cora was doing some kind of cheating with the Red Sox but we don't know the extent of it, that's why they're being investigated.

I haven't used any #'s because it doesn't matter.

 

[RipCity]

How did the Mitchell Report not intentionally exclude anyone when not a single Red Sox player was on the report and a bunch of them were taking steroids. There's no way you're this naive.

Back up what you say? I said the Astros should be stripped of their World Series and it should he given to the Dodgers. I said Alex Cora was the ringleader. I said if Alex Cora was doing similar stuff in Boston they should strip their World Series as well and give it to the Dodgers. It seems there is enough there to know Cora was doing some kind of cheating with the Red Sox but we don't know the extent of it, that's why they're being investigated.

I haven't used any #'s because it doesn't matter.

The Red Sox aren’t even being accused of what the Astros did. So the “if” in your statement is a fantasy. Cora cheated both places so he’s cooked, but the extent of the cheating isn’t going to be comparable between the two teams.

The conflict of interest in the Mitchell report has been written about so many times. Mitchell wasn't the only one who saw the list, you’d be talking about multiple people being complicit in what would eventually qualify as perjury. There also was Red Sox players listed, despite your insisting to the contrary. There were more Yankees players listed, but a lot of them were stars they acquired who began their careers elsewhere like Clemens, Justice, Giambi, etc. It doesn’t imply that the Yankees were any more guilty of something systemic than any other team and it didn’t make any team look like a bunch of angels either.

But to wrap this up, I was just busting your balls with my original poke at you. Could have chosen about half the people in this thread.

 

[jibsey]

Let’s wait for the report on the Red Sox and Cora before concluding anything. When is it likely to go down?

 

[Towney007]

If they take your route, then teams like the Sox and Astros become the Patriots. Okay with cheating because the fine and minimal suspensions are far outweighed by the team winning Super Bowls.

I've just cared so little about sign stealing over the years, I'm not even sure where to start. It's impact on the game is entirely unproveable and mostly overblown. To the degree that I was more surprised the Astros spent as much time and effort to do it at that level. I just don't think it's that impactful. If you're gonna cheat - there's better things to spend your time on.

But teams do it, it's mostly gamesmanship and honestly I've never thought of it as some game-demolishing, morality laden crisis. Teams are always going to use cameras and surveillance to spy on each other. That's just reality. Even with this suspension. Make it costly if teams get caught doing it past a certain point; but the idea this is going to have some sort of dramatic, cascading effect on the integrity of the game - I think - it being really dramatic about it.

Suspending guys a year and basically getting them blackballed and THEN ON TOP OF IT - calling for titles to be vacated is insanity. It's an extreme overreaction.

To me - this whole thing seems to be less about the sign stealing - and more about them blatantly blowing off the commissioner's office.

 

[nomar]

If you remove Mookie’s 2018 season he turns into a career .290 hitter. I also find it ironic how Altuve (2017) and Betts (2018) won MVP with ridiculously good numbers and high BA’s.

And what if you remove the season where he hit .264?

Do you find it ironic that he hit .318 with 31 homers and 113 RBI, with an .897 OPS, two years earlier?

The Sox are gonna take their licking, as they should, but let's not pretend Mookie Betts isn't good.

 

[Deepster]

I've just cared so little about sign stealing over the years, I'm not even sure where to start. It's impact on the game is entirely unproveable and mostly overblown. To the degree that I was more surprised the Astros spent as much time and effort to do it at that level. I just don't think it's that impactful. If you're gonna cheat - there's better things to spend your time on.

But teams do it, it's mostly gamesmanship and honestly I've never thought of it as some game-demolishing, morality laden crisis. Teams are always going to use cameras and surveillance to spy on each other. That's just reality. Even with this suspension. Make it costly if teams get caught doing it past a certain point; but the idea this is going to have some sort of dramatic, cascading effect on the integrity of the game - I think - it being really dramatic about it.

Suspending guys a year and basically getting them blackballed and THEN ON TOP OF IT - calling for titles to be vacated is insanity. It's an extreme overreaction.

To me - this whole thing seems to be less about the sign stealing - and more about them blatantly blowing off the commissioner's office.

I don't disagree. But why does Bill Belichick need to film the Bengals sidelines?

 

[HuskyHawk]

The Red Sox lost 3 games in the 2018 Playoffs, one in each series. Two of those losses were at Fenway.

Jackie Bradley Jr. hit .200 in the 5 game ALCS and his heroics mostly came in Minute Maid Park in games 3 and 4.

Did anybody even read Ken Rosenthal's article? The sign stealing did not occur in the playoffs as MLB monitored the video replay rooms.

It seems that @mauconnfan didn't read it, or the quotes I posted showing that the Yankees were clearly doing this back to 2017. It doesn't excuse anything the Red Sox did, and certainly not the Astros who took it to another level, but way more than those two teams discovered and used this "cheat".

 

[superjohn]

The Red Sox aren’t even being accused of what the Astros did. So the “if” in your statement is a fantasy. Cora cheated both places so he’s cooked, but the extent of the cheating isn’t going to be comparable between the two teams.

The conflict of interest in the Mitchell report has been written about so many times. Mitchell wasn't the only one who saw the list, you’d be talking about multiple people being complicit in what would eventually qualify as perjury. There also was Red Sox players listed, despite your insisting to the contrary. There were more Yankees players listed, but a lot of them were stars they acquired who began their careers elsewhere like Clemens, Justice, Giambi, etc. It doesn’t imply that the Yankees were any more guilty of something systemic than any other team and it didn’t make any team look like a bunch of angels either.

But to wrap this up, I was just busting your balls with my original poke at you. Could have chosen about half the people in this thread.

Who were the Red Sox players listed? I'm going off of memory but I don't remember anyone, there certainly wasn't any players of note when we know they had star players using.

Mitchell clearly focused his investigation on Brian McNamee and the Yankees and didn't look at the Red Sox, this makes him a fraud but I don't see the perjury.

 

[HuskyHawk]

I don't disagree. But why does Bill Belichick need to film the Bengals sidelines?

He doesn't and he didn't. Good grief. Get a grip.

 

[UConnStats]

using a few games worth of numbers to justify an accusation of cheating is ridiculous. Anyone who has ever worked in a data driven job would tell you that there is zero credibility with that few points of data.

A good number of baseball fans have come a long way with understanding this stuff, but the past couple of days have shown that the vast majority of the public doesn’t have a good grip on baseball statistics and certainly not credibility/SSS.

Did anybody even read Ken Rosenthal's article? The sign stealing did not occur in the playoffs as MLB monitored the video replay rooms.

It seems that @mauconnfan didn't read it, or the quotes I posted showing that the Yankees were clearly doing this back to 2017. It doesn't excuse anything the Red Sox did, and certainly not the Astros who took it to another level, but way more than those two teams discovered and used this "cheat".

It’s pretty clear most people haven’t read much other than other talking heads’ hot takes. Misinformation for days.

 

[superjohn]

I don't care about #'s because cheating is cheating but this does make me wonder a little about Springer. He's one of the best fastball hitters in baseball but it almost looked liike he had a cheat code against the Dodgers.

 

[Husky25]

Did anybody even read Ken Rosenthal's article? The sign stealing did not occur in the playoffs as MLB monitored the video replay rooms.

It seems that @mauconnfan didn't read it, or the quotes I posted showing that the Yankees were clearly doing this back to 2017. It doesn't excuse anything the Red Sox did, and certainly not the Astros who took it to another level, but way more than those two teams discovered and used this "cheat".

I referenced that in a subsequent post.

 

[GemParty]

I don't care about #'s because cheating is cheating but this does make me wonder a little about Springer. He's one of the best fastball hitters in baseball but it almost looked liike he had a cheat code against the Dodgers.

A number of hitters, who are analysts now, have said it’s like having the answers to a test. If you know it’s a fastball, all you do is load and swing away.

 

[Robertelamin]

Cora is going to show up next season in sunglasses and a fake mustache like Bobby Valentine

 

[Towney007]

I don't disagree. But why does Bill Belichick need to film the Bengals sidelines?

I don't care about that either because football teams watch tape all the time.

But even if it's against the rules and it's bad/considered cheating, I'm not sure my answer would be to suspend Belichick for a year without pay AND anyone up top in the football operations department at New England in a way and manner that actively encourages the Patriots to fire him and essentially make him nuclear for the rest of his life.

Wanna fine him? Go ahead. Strip them of picks? Sure. Tax their payroll or institute some sort of payroll penalty? Go for it. Suspend him for some games? Fire away.

But this isn't that.

It's not even as bad as taping guys from the sidelines. It's sign stealing, one of the most famous wastes of time in all of baseball. It's funnier than it is anything else. And heck - i'm not even sure it's that. Everyone else was doing it too, Yankees included and they got a slap on the wrist. It was the guys who disobeyed the commissioner's office that got killed.

And i'm not sure i'd be throwing down that kind of punishment just to show everyone who's in charge around here, either.

 

[temery]

Stealing signs is not against the rule. Using technology to steal signs is.

Turn the table and make signs against the rules. Have a plan for how to pitch to each batter, and stick to it.

This rule screams, "I'm too lazy, or not good enough to do my job."

 

[ZenConn]

MLB went hard after the Astros because they stole signs using technology AFTER a memo was sent out to all the teams to stop doing it.

 

[Husky25]

Turn the table and make signs against the rules. Have a plan for how to pitch to each batter, and stick to it.

This rule screams, "I'm too lazy, or not good enough to do my job."

Dangerous proposition. It's not even the 96mph fastballs. With Changeups and breaking ball routinely clocked through the 80+ mph range, a catcher needs to know what's coming. A Crossed up catcher might be interesting viewing, and while he might catch it more often than not, there is no reason to subject him to that anxiety 150 times a game.

 

[temery]

Dangerous proposition. It's not even the 96mph fastballs. With Changeups and breaking ball routinely clocked through the 80+ mph range, a catcher needs to know what's coming. A Crossed up catcher might be interesting viewing, and while he might catch it more often than not, there is no reason to subject him to that anxiety 150 times a game.

He's wearing pads and is being paid millions. Man up, or quit.

Or ... as I said, prepare for each batter before the game. That way the catcher should know what's coming.

 

[HuskyHawk]

He's wearing pads and is being paid millions. Man up, or quit.

Or ... as I said, prepare for each batter before the game. That way the catcher should know what's coming.

They do prepare and then adjust on the fly. I like my rule change. Once the batter steps in that's that. Put the pitcher on a ten second pitch clock and don't allow the batter to call time (maybe once a game) or step out of the box. You either have good stuff or not. And can stand there and hit or not. Baseball has turned each pitch into some kind of high drama, except it's boring the hell out of everyone watching.

Each pitch is like this scene.

But it's so simple. All I have to do is divine it from what I know of you. Are you the sort of man who would expect a fastball or a breaking ball on a 1-2 count? Now, a clever man would expect a slider because he would know that only a great fool would throw a fastball. I am not a great fool so I can clearly not throw a fastball...But you must have known I was not a great fool; you would have counted on it, so I can clearly not throw a breaking ball. On and on...endlessly.

 

[Husky25]

He's wearing pads and is being paid millions. Man up, or quit.

Or ... as I said, prepare for each batter before the game. That way the catcher should know what's coming.

Custom Title/Post

That's ridiculous. Even with signs, the catcher should know what's coming and still sometimes gets crossed up.

 

[the Q]

They do prepare and then adjust on the fly. I like my rule change. Once the batter steps in that's that. Put the pitcher on a ten second pitch clock and don't allow the batter to call time (maybe once a game) or step out of the box. You either have good stuff or not. And can stand there and hit or not. Baseball has turned each pitch into some kind of high drama, except it's boring the hell out of everyone watching.

Each pitch is like this scene.

But it's so simple. All I have to do is divine it from what I know of you. Are you the sort of man who would expect a fastball or a breaking ball on a 1-2 count? Now, a clever man would expect a slider because he would know that only a great fool would throw a fastball. I am not a great fool so I can clearly not throw a fastball...But you must have known I was not a great fool; you would have counted on it, so I can clearly not throw a breaking ball. On and on...endlessly.

that scene is what makes baseball the single greatest game in the world.

also a ten second clock would basically mean the pitcher can’t shake the catcher off.

 

[temery]

Custom Title/Post

That's ridiculous. Even with signs, the catcher should know what's coming and still sometimes gets crossed up.

The catcher know what's coming: a baseball.