Astros/Red Sox Cheating Scandal | Page 8 | The Boneyard

Astros/Red Sox Cheating Scandal

jibsey said:
Cora came fresh from fixing the WS to the Red Sox after he just perfected his system. Maybe the title is tainted, let’s wait for MLB.
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Yeah, let’s see what the investigation turns up first.
 
The Viking said:
Cora will get 2 years and the Sox will likely let him go if that's the case. What the Red Sox did compared to the Astros is not really in the same ballpark (pardon the pun) but there's blood in the water and this is Cora's second offense. I still can't believe they came down this hard on the Astros.

Considering they Yankees were caught in 2015 with using video to steal signs it makes you wonder if they've recently found another way to let the hitter know what's coming outside of using the video room.

When you consider how many of their unheralded guys turn into big contributors once they reach the Bronx, it's not something to dismiss.

Example, Luke Voit's highest HR total in the minors was 19 back in 1916. In 2018, St. Louis has seen enough where they are ready to move on from him for Carson Shreve. He spends time in the minors and hits 10 HR's in 303 at bats. Then he gets called up to the Bronx and while he's facing the best pitching in his life, he hits 15 HR's in 161 at bats.

Then you have the hiring of Carlos Beltran by the Yankees in Dec 2018 - the same guy who was instrumental in the 2017 Astros cheating scandal - and we watch guys like Urshela, Tauchman, Maybin - hell even Mike Ford have impactful seasons out of nowhere. Oh yeah and then Brett Gardner and his 28 homers.

Something to think about.
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No, it's not. When you have literally ANY actual proof, you let us know. Until then, STFU.
 
methodology said:
A lot of people don't understand/ fully appreciate the game within the game. Every pitch is a chess match and then the waste pitches to set up a pitch later in the game or the next at bat.

Then everything that the fielders are doing even if the ball isn't hit to them. Relay throws that are executed perfectly are some of greatest plays.

It's the best sport around but not everyone sees/understands the intricacies and that's fine to each their own.
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Indeed. I'm not even sure what the number of combinations could be when you consider a pitcher with 4 pitches and the outcomes of any given pitch, the various possible ball / strike counts, and then add in an infinite number of foul balls, the idea of a "plan" for each batter, without signs is possibly THE most mind numbingly ignorant things I've ever read in relation to sports in my entire life. And that's without the consideration of the safety of the catcher AND umpire without definitively knowing what pitch is coming next. Good lord.
 
Deadrody said:
No, it's not. When you have literally ANY actual proof, you let us know. Until then, .
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This isn't a courtroom, it's a message board.
Nothing will probably come out now if anything happened considering MLB refuses to ask NY any questions even though 1 of the 2 culprits was part of the organization for the entire year. Interesting decision by the commish, but when you grew up a Yankees fan and your right-hand man is Joe Torre, it starts to paint a clearer picture.
 
The Viking said:
This isn't a courtroom, it's a message board.
Nothing will probably come out now if anything happened considering MLB refuses to ask NY any questions even though 1 of the 2 culprits was part of the organization for the entire year. Interesting decision by the commish, but when you grew up a Yankees fan and your right-hand man is Joe Torre, it starts to paint a clearer picture.
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Cry more.
 
The Viking said:
This isn't a courtroom, it's a message board.
Nothing will probably come out now if anything happened considering MLB refuses to ask NY any questions even though 1 of the 2 culprits was part of the organization for the entire year. Interesting decision by the commish, but when you grew up a Yankees fan and your right-hand man is Joe Torre, it starts to paint a clearer picture.
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Ya ok then how come Arod got black balled amongst all the steroid guys and missed an entire year of baseball (not defending him but dont act like he was the only one who took roids). Steinbrenner gets handed a 2 year ban from baseball for gambling while Jim Crane gets what a 5 mill fine and loses 2 1st round picks big deal. So no there is no pro Yankee conspiracy going on the Astros got off easy here, trust me if the Yankees did this everyone and I mean everyone would know about it, you would have CNN cameras there.
 
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Scoe said:
Ya ok then how come Arod got black balled amongst all the steroid guys and missed an entire year of baseball (not defending him but dont act like he was the only one who took roids). Steinbrenner gets handed a 2 year ban from baseball for gambling while Jim Crane gets what a 5 mill fine and loses 2 1st round picks big deal. So no there is no pro Yankee conspiracy going on the Astros got off easy here, trust me if the Yankees did this everyone and I mean everyone would know about it, you would have CNN cameras there.
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Yanks did nothing or else they wouldn't even think of spouting off as much as they are about the cheaters. Huge advantage and players should not be allowed to just say they're sorry, they should be sitting too period!

As far as Sox fans and ARod I mean please can we count the players who cheated for them to win, it's the same for all. I mean are they winning anything without Papi or Manny early on? No but ARod took the hit despite so many other cheaters. Happens move on and take your punches now as they come for yet another way of cheating!
 
By all accounts by reputable baseball writers over the past few days whatever the Sox did was minimal and they will be given a slap on the wrist. Whole different story than Houston.
 
The Viking said:
By all accounts by reputable baseball writers over the past few days whatever the Sox did was minimal and they will be given a slap on the wrist. Whole different story than Houston.
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Not defending either team; but the Red Sox's issue is that they were warned by MLB about using tech (Apple Watches) in 2014 or so by MLB. Then, they got caught again in 2018. Officials in any league do not like a tea, that gets warned at still does something bad. The Red Sox seem to know this, which is what they name Ron Roenicke as their 'interim' manager instead of just their manager. They're hedging their bets until MLB takes their swing.
 
Scoe said:
No suspension to any players equals more batters getting hbp.
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I don't doubt you're right, but I hope not. I think it will only serve to make the Astros players into victims.
 
billythekid said:
I don't doubt you're right, but I hope not. I think it will only serve to make the Astros players into victims.
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The PR spin around that has already begun.

www.espn.com

Dusty Baker urges MLB to protect Astros from beanballs, retaliation

Houston manager Dusty Baker said MLB needs to step in to stop "premeditated" targeting of Astros hitters with pitches from opponents angry at their cheating "before somebody gets hurt."
www.espn.com www.espn.com

I am waiting for MLB to ban opisjng fans from brining in garbage cans whenever the Astros visit...
 
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I must admit I am amazed by this whole “cheating scandal”. I no longer follow baseball that closely because I cant follow the movement of players from team to team. I find it hard to believe that with the movement of players out of the Astros and maybe the Red Sox, that when those players arrived at their new team, they didn’t let their new teams know what was going on. Or, how could teams be so stupid as to not investigate the constant banging of a trash can.

Let me speculate that they all did let their new teams in on the “secret” and that the use of electronics was, [and is?] a whole lot more widespread than baseball is willing to admit.
 
Padutch5 said:
Let me speculate that they all did let their new teams in on the “secret” and that the use of electronics was, [and is?] a whole lot more widespread than baseball is willing to admit.
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Yes.
 
Padutch5 said:
I must admit I am amazed by this whole “cheating scandal”. I no longer follow baseball that closely because I cant follow the movement of players from team to team. I find it hard to believe that with the movement of players out of the Astros and maybe the Red Sox, that when those players arrived at their new team, they didn’t let their new teams know what was going on. Or, how could teams be so stupid as to not investigate the constant banging of a trash can.

Let me speculate that they all did let their new teams in on the “secret” and that the use of electronics was, [and is?] a whole lot more widespread than baseball is willing to admit.
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I take it you aren’t a fan of the nfl either? Way more turnover in the nfl than mlb.
 
the Q said:
I take it you aren’t a fan of the nfl either? Way more turnover in the nfl than mlb.
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I should have added that as I get older, MLB gets slower and slower. I know the players offense it, but the rules the Florida league used last year are a considerable improvement. Limited number of trips to mound, a timer on trips to the mound and a timer between pitches all help speed it up.
As a matter of fact, yes I can no longer watch an NFL game In its entirety. The actual amount of action in a game is pretty small. The inability of the NFL to figure out how to use instant replay also puts the integrity of the game into question,
 
Padutch5 said:
I must admit I am amazed by this whole “cheating scandal”. I no longer follow baseball that closely because I cant follow the movement of players from team to team. I find it hard to believe that with the movement of players out of the Astros and maybe the Red Sox, that when those players arrived at their new team, they didn’t let their new teams know what was going on.
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They do. Beltran left NY and went to Houston (quick pit stop with the Rangers in between), and told Houston they were way behind the times in sign stealing and then he started doing his thing.
Meanwhile Chris Young went from NY to Boston and as Heath Hembree said, Young "spilled the beans" on everything NY was doing. Peter Gammons said Young told him once that the Apple Watch thing started with NY. Young denied it, and Gammons apologized. I get the feeling Gammons realized he let something out that was off the record and he did heavy backtracking to save Young.
Point being stuff is shared when players go to other teams. I would assume one of the reasons Cashman brought Beltran back was to find out what Houston was doing.
 
Players should be held accountable. I know a lot of guys here like Springer, but he’s one of them and I wouldn’t mind seeing him get plunked with the rest of them. Altuve, Bregman, Correa, Reddick...throw at them all, slide into them hard, cleat them high. It’s what they deserve.
 
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The Viking said:
They do. Beltran left NY and went to Houston (quick pit stop with the Rangers in between), and told Houston they were way behind the times in sign stealing and then he started doing his thing.
Meanwhile Chris Young went from NY to Boston and as Heath Hembree said, Young "spilled the beans" on everything NY was doing. Peter Gammons said Young told him once that the Apple Watch thing started with NY. Young denied it, and Gammons apologized. I get the feeling Gammons realized he let something out that was off the record and he did heavy backtracking to save Young.
Point being stuff is shared when players go to other teams. I would assume one of the reasons Cashman brought Beltran back was to find out what Houston was doing.
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So if these other teams knew about it they either ignored it or began to do it themselves. Me thinks these other teams protesters too much. In other words, fake anger.
 
Integrity in professional sports is an oxymoron at the highest levels. As history proves.
 
Butch said:
Integrity in professional sports is an oxymoron at the highest levels. As history proves.
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So it’s ok for everybody to steal from stores because well history has shown it’s happened before.
 
Scoe said:
So it’s ok for everybody to steal from stores because well history has shown it’s happened before.
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yeah. No. That’s that weird Patriots fan logic. If The Sox cheated and got caught, then they deserve the punishment. Much like when cherington chested for international FAs (costing them valuable trade chips).
 
alexd. said:
The Red Sox rank 3rd in the majors for "homegrown talent" based on this detailed analysis.

bleacherreport.com

Ranking All 30 MLB Teams on Homegrown Talent Entering 2019

All 30 MLB teams put different emphases on building from within and cultivating homegrown talent. A lot of that has to do with payroll...
bleacherreport.com bleacherreport.com
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Eh, incomplete analysis. "Home Grown" should also include guys you traded for, not just players that spent all their time in the minors with one team. Obviously not a great example, but the Yankees got A-Rod for one of their home grown guys - Soriano. Getting players you signed as minor league free agents, or drafted, is not the only goal of a team's minor league system. Really funny thing is, that analysis going INTO 2019 missed out on a lot of guys that made major contributions - Voit, Tauchman, Urshela. Heck, They got Gregorious from AZ for minor league guys. They also missed out on guys like German, and even Paxton, who they got in trade for Sheffield and others. Someone else would have to do the math for other teams (without knowing the team closely, it's a lot of work) but by my count, that puts the Yankees "Home Grown" fWAR for last season at ~34, rather than their projected 17.
 
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Waquoit said:
This New York Post article has Mark Teixiera admitting the Yankees cheated but insists it's not the same as the Astros because they weren't good at it.
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The problem for Houston (and possibly the Red Sox) is that the Astros used video capture, data mining (a very complicated Excel file), and electronic (and manual trashcans/whistling) to decode signs in real-time. That had not been done before and MLB became concerned about it and warned 1 team (the Red Sox) and everyone else in 2014 not to do so. Houston Boston ignored that warning at their own peril.

Sign stealing has been part of base since there was baseball, for better or worse. But as Teixiera said, it was an inexact science involving trail and error and took time to put together in a game that usually resulted in mixed results even when game time video became widely available. It was a manual system that required a lot of coordination, patience and trail and error, and a pitcher who had a tendency to tip his pitches in the first place. Basically, the batters had to 'earn' this edge. Such a system may help batter against a starting pitcher who has thrown 100+ pitches over the course of 6 or 7 innings.

Through the use of technology, the Astros system helped batters against a pitcher in his 1st inning on the mound (see Chapman in Game 7). They didn't earn it. That's the big issue. That and the fact that it DID impact the outcome of game and DID impact player's lives, and finances.
 
Chapman likely got beat because he couldn't throw a fastball for a strike to save his life and any smart hitter in that spot was probably looking slider and Chapman hung a fat pitch.

The Yankees scored three runs in four games in Houston in 2017. That's the biggest reason they lost that series - far bigger than the trash can.

What the astros did was egregious no doubt - but in both series its certainly probable the yankees lost because they just deserved to.
 
The Viking said:
Chapman likely got beat because he couldn't throw a fastball for a strike to save his life and any smart hitter in that spot was probably looking slider and Chapman hung a fat pitch.

The Yankees scored three runs in four games in Houston in 2017. That's the biggest reason they lost that series - far bigger than the trash can.

What the astros did was egregious no doubt - but in both series its certainly probable the yankees lost because they just deserved to.
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The real point was that perhaps the Yankees should have had home field advantage in 2017, if not for the Astros record due to their cheating. Since each team won all their games at home, that would kinda be a big deal.
 
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