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said it before-schools like duke/bc/wake/pitt/cuse are not worth much. they bring down the tv$$ while teams like fsu/vt/clem are worth alot. together a crapy product and a good product make a ok product that gets you ok $$= 16mil a team acc

the b12 has a couple stud in tex/ok and other good products in wvu/okst etc. the bad are baylor/ist/kst which is alot better than the acc bad teams. so there $$ is alot better. now take those good acc teams product wise and put them with good and great b12 products.....rocket science.

It isn't a draft. Notes Dame is much more valuable than Clempzon, but if they don't want to join it doesn't matter how many hypothetical millions message board posters have conjured up.
 
You may be right, who the &^%$ knows. I do have 1 issue w/the logic - if the B12 is to go to 16 (as well as SEC), the PAC!@ needs to spread east or be forever landlocked. My Personal view is that the OKie and Bevo schools end up other than B12, w/2 (counting OSU or TT) going to Pac12. The B12 and P12 can not BOTH get to 16 w/o one or both taking crappy product. That's the puzzler and why IMO the B12 rmains a dying man.

said it before-schools like duke/bc/wake/pitt/cuse are not worth much. they bring down the tv$$ while teams like fsu/vt/clem are worth alot. together a crapy product and a good product make a ok product that gets you ok $$= 16mil a team acc

the b12 has a couple stud in tex/ok and other good products in wvu/okst etc. the bad are baylor/ist/kst which is alot better than the acc bad teams. so there $$ is alot better. now take those good acc teams product wise and put them with good and great b12 products.....rocket science.
 
You may be right, who the &^%$ knows. I do have 1 issue w/the logic - if the B12 is to go to 16 (as well as SEC), the PAC!@ needs to spread east or be forever landlocked. My Personal view is that the OKie and Bevo schools end up other than B12, w/2 (counting OSU or TT) going to Pac12. The B12 and P12 can not BOTH get to 16 w/o one or both taking crappy product. That's the puzzler and why IMO the B12 rmains a dying man.

The problem with that logic is that it has Texas/OU moving because it's the Pac's best option, not because it's what the schools want. They have already signed a grant of rights, making any such move unprofitable for a long time. And the thought of a Big 12 with a national presence, tier 3 independence, and all rivals safe seems far superior in their minds. If they didn't move west last year, when the Big 12 looked like it could fall apart, why move now that it's stable, much richer, and financially committed to itself with a grant of rights?

If all other conferences move to 16, the Pac will be the odd man out. That or they will get desperate, possibly adding four new members that are football-only to rationalize the lowered standards of the newcomers. I'm thinking Boise, BYU, SMU and Houston or the like, if it really came to that (but sticking at 12 despite the trend is much more likely).
 
The problem with that logic is that it has Texas/OU moving because it's the Pac's best option, not because it's what the schools want. They have already signed a grant of rights, making any such move unprofitable for a long time. And the thought of a Big 12 with a national presence, tier 3 independence, and all rivals safe seems far superior in their minds. If they didn't move west last year, when the Big 12 looked like it could fall apart, why move now that it's stable, much richer, and financially committed to itself with a grant of rights?

If all other conferences move to 16, the Pac will be the odd man out. That or they will get desperate, possibly adding four new members that are football-only to rationalize the lowered standards of the newcomers. I'm thinking Boise, BYU, SMU and Houston or the like, if it really came to that (but sticking at 12 despite the trend is much more likely).

i agree with this. to add the acc contract is the only screwed one right now. thats why the acc dies.
the pac can do this, add bsu/byu/unr/unlv. others in the running are sdsu, fresno, hawaii and a zaga/ combo sports wise. the nevada state schools both have the size and potential with big city/pops already in place. bsu and byu are easy sells. the pac will get off its high horse about academics after they watch the acc be gone like magic and realize that the b12 tex/ok crew is never coming west.

this is what scares me as a uconn fan right now:

pac-bsu/byu/unlv/unr
b12-fsu/miami/clem/gt/lville/cincy or uh
sec-ncst/vt
b10-nd/uva/unc/md
 
i agree with this. to add the acc contract is the only screwed one right now. thats why the acc dies.
the pac can do this, add bsu/byu/unr/unlv. others in the running are sdsu, fresno, hawaii and a zaga/ combo sports wise. the nevada state schools both have the size and potential with big city/pops already in place. bsu and byu are easy sells. the pac will get off its high horse about academics after they watch the acc be gone like magic and realize that the b12 tex/ok crew is never coming west.

this is what scares me as a uconn fan right now:

pac-bsu/byu/unlv/unr
b12-fsu/miami/clem/gt/lville/cincy or uh
sec-ncst/vt
b10-nd/uva/unc/md

You are a big-time Husky fan, and I love you for it, but...did you say the Pac-12 would add Nevada and UNLV??? HuskyfanDan, this is where you lose any possible credibility on any other statement you make when you make statements like that. The Pac-12 is only a few months removed from the negotiation table with Texas, OU, OSU, and TTech, and you think they would add Nevada and UNLV?? You've gotta put down the handle of Captain Morgan's for like 5 seconds so that you can enjoy how ridiculous that statement is.

And I told myself I wouldn't put another post on this God-forsaken thread. I'm going to go ahead and whip myself "DaVinci Code" style for this one...
 
You are a big-time Husky fan, and I love you for it, but...did you say the Pac-12 would add Nevada and UNLV??? HuskyfanDan, this is where you lose any possible credibility on any other statement you make when you make statements like that. The Pac-12 is only a few months removed from the negotiation table with Texas, OU, OSU, and TTech, and you think they would add Nevada and UNLV?? You've gotta put down the handle of Captain Morgan's for like 5 seconds so that you can enjoy how ridiculous that statement is.

And I told myself I wouldn't put another post on this God-forsaken thread. I'm going to go ahead and whip myself "DaVinci Code" style for this one...

i am a crazy person on this board, i know but i keep it here mostly. its all for the fun of it. as for u posting in this thread again well....haha

unlv:
-vegas baby!
-sam boyd is a nice 40k i think and has a bowl game connection
-huge bball hostory thats coming back to life. so there is a sports following that can be a boost to the program going big time. kind of like uconn a bit.
-suge knight would be proud, kenny manye and jimmy kimel are annoying.
-28k public school. campus is a mile down from the strip.
-great new bball facility and they have a huge arena to play in.
-in the middle of a huge research push to raise classroom profile. tier 2 currently rising.

unr:
-reno 911 baby!
-20k public, big on certain types of research and science. tier 1 solid ranking
-30k stadium easily expanded to 40/50k by doing new endzones/corners.
-bball stuff is fine

they are not to be slept on. its a state with 2 great population areas left out of the pac right now but surrounded by pac fanbases with no one to pull for. these 2 bridge the east-west and north-south of 2 divisions for that league.
 
.-.
i am a crazy person on this board, i know but i keep it here mostly. its all for the fun of it. as for u posting in this thread again well....haha

unlv:
-vegas baby!
-sam boyd is a nice 40k i think and has a bowl game connection
-huge bball hostory thats coming back to life. so there is a sports following that can be a boost to the program going big time. kind of like uconn a bit.
-suge knight would be proud, kenny manye and jimmy kimel are annoying.
-28k public school. campus is a mile down from the strip.
-great new bball facility and they have a huge arena to play in.
-in the middle of a huge research push to raise classroom profile. tier 2 currently rising.

unr:
-reno 911 baby!
-20k public, big on certain types of research and science. tier 1 solid ranking
-30k stadium easily expanded to 40/50k by doing new endzones/corners.
-bball stuff is fine

they are not to be slept on. its a state with 2 great population areas left out of the pac right now but surrounded by pac fanbases with no one to pull for. these 2 bridge the east-west and north-south of 2 divisions for that league.

I'm crazy too, because I keep coming back to the ACC thread. I think the fact that you referenced Suge Knight should tell me a lot about this plan. Right now, the Pac-12 is not interested in 30k stadiums that can be expanded. They are interested in expanding tv to China and landing big-time programs only. And don't get me wrong; I have NO love for the Pac-12. But it is just the reality of the situation. I think that UNLV and Nevada are even marginally bad moves for the Big East right now, so what on earth would make them good moves for one of the most stable and richest of all college football conferences?? The answer is, "not in my lifetime".....okay, back to the whipping...
 
said it before-schools like duke/bc/wake/pitt/cuse are not worth much. they bring down the tv$$ while teams like fsu/vt/clem are worth alot. together a crapy product and a good product make a ok product that gets you ok $$= 16mil a team acc

the b12 has a couple stud in tex/ok and other good products in wvu/okst etc. the bad are baylor/ist/kst which is alot better than the acc bad teams. so there $$ is alot better. now take those good acc teams product wise and put them with good and great b12 products.....rocket science.

If Duke, BC, wake, pitt and cuse aren't worth much, then what do we bring? I have to think Uconn's value is in line with Syracuse and Pit.
Bottom line, this group which is supposedly anchors in the ACC would be huge additions in the BE.
But every big conference has the bottom feeders: Northwestern, Purdue, Indiana, Vandy, Washington St....
 
I'm so glad I have ignored this board for so long...just reading two pages of this 46 page thread makes my eyes water...
 
Yes they did. The B12 had 8 teams and the ACC made a defensive move. Have you noticed they could have kept adding and didn't.

North Carolina isn't leaving the ACC for 5 million dollars. Its just not happening. The ACC would certainly survive Florida State leaving. I think I've read around here how great the new Big East is and it may be the least loyal organization on the planet.

The suckiness of the Big East has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the ACC is about to get raided. Those are two independent variables. Once you get past that point, you may see what virtually everyone else sees.
 
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The suckiness of the Big East has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the ACC is about to get raided. Those are two independent variables. Once you get past that point, you may see what virtually everyone else sees.

So, you don't feel that the academic prestige of the ACC will be enough to retain Florida State, Clemson, and the like? I suppose we'll see. Swofford's idiotic move to add Pittsburgh and Syracuse is coming back to haunt them. That hurt an already damaged fooball product and did little good for their TV contract.
 
So, you don't feel that the academic prestige of the ACC will be enough to retain Florida State, Clemson, and the like? I suppose we'll see. Swofford's idiotic move to add Pittsburgh and Syracuse is coming back to haunt them. That hurt an already damaged fooball product and did little good for their TV contract.

LOLOLOLOL. Academic prestige? Really? That is a distant tertiary factor, barely even a tiebreaker. I firmly believe FSU and Clemson are gone if the offer comes. The dollar difference between the Big 12 and ACC may be as much as $10MM a year when you throw in Tier 3 rights. That is $100 million over the next 10 years. No university can pass up that kind of money. Pitt and Syracuse left for roughly even money compared to the ESPN offer on the table to the Big East.

Furthermore, the ACC, and specifically UNC and either UVA or VTech are likely targets of SEC expansion at some point. Any of those 3 are more valuable to the SEC than Missouri or Texas A&M. UVa and Maryland will always be targets of the B1G too. FSU and Clemson will never be invited to the SEC because of UF and USCe. If FSU and Clemson miss this expansion window, they could be stuck in a shrinking ACC. There is no way they will pass this up.

ESPN has not executed a new deal with the ACC yet despite cutting one with the Big 12 and financing two additions from the exact same conference. There was no rational reason for the Big 12, which has significant more complexity around the Tier 3 rights and inventory, to finish its deal before the ACC, unless ESPN thinks the ACC is about to be raided. If the ACC deal comes in at $14 to $15, where most expect it, then that is a virtual death sentence for the league.

Adding Pitt and Syracuse is looking increasingly like a stupid move by the ACC. The ACC was stuck in a lousy long-term deal and the right move was to merge into the Big East football league and the Big East's pending open negotiation window. A 21 team league that extended up and down the east coast would have been unwieldy, but would have likely gotten a monster deal. Instead, the ACC destabilized the Big East for two mediocre programs that were not capable of moving the revenue needle at all, and also saved the Big 12 by enabling it to easily pluck TCU and WVU. A merger with the Big East could have checkmated the Big 12 and forced them to add lower caliber schools, which may have caused a Texahoma exodus to the Pac 12. The ACC could have knocked out a competitor, the Big 12, and gone back to the market for a new TV deal, Instead, the sharks are circling, and ironically the Big 12 could be the league that takes the first bite.
 
The suckiness of the Big East has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the ACC is about to get raided. Those are two independent variables. Once you get past that point, you may see what virtually everyone else sees.

The ACC may get raided. They have 14 teams though and can either play with 12 or take a combination of rutgers uconn and louisville. So how does the crappiness of the Big East not matter? I
 
I think the bigger question right now is whether or not someone can get involved and sort out the ACC/Big East issues. Just because Pitt and Cuse left we have to assume that there is no way to realign? The Big East and the ACC should sit down and figure out how to form a league that has maximum potential. If that involves leaving behind weaker links, so be it. The fight for survival as BCS leagues is over. Form a 20 team league and get a new contract. The Big Atlantic Conference or something of that nature.
 
Any thoughts of an ACC/Big East merger won't happen until the ACC has been raided and is in a very bad place.
 
Any thoughts of an ACC/Big East merger won't happen until the ACC has been raided and is in a very bad place.

Agree 100%. The time to work cooperatively was before they took Pitt and Syracuse. Now there is no point. Unfortunately, the outcome will be much, much worse for both leagues than if they had worked cooperatively.

FSU to the Big 12 is getting a lot of traction with analysts and "insiders", at a level of Texas A&M to the SEC in the weeks leading up to that announcement. I think it is going to happen.
 
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Agree 100%. The time to work cooperatively was before they took Pitt and Syracuse. Now there is no point. Unfortunately, the outcome will be much, much worse for both leagues than if they had worked cooperatively.

FSU to the Big 12 is getting a lot of traction with analysts and "insiders", at a level of Texas A&M to the SEC in the weeks leading up to that announcement. I think it is going to happen.


Why? It seems making a move now is the only way to get a better deal and stabilize the majority of programs in both leagues. An east coast league without FSU and Clemson is still a great product due to the massive population in the east, easy travel, rivalries and very high quality hoops. Being reactive will fail, this situation requires being proactive for any chance of success.
 
Why? It seems making a move now is the only way to get a better deal and stabilize the majority of programs in both leagues. An east coast league without FSU and Clemson is still a great product due to the massive population in the east, easy travel, rivalries and very high quality hoops. Being reactive will fail, this situation requires being proactive for any chance of success.

A few problems with working cooperatively.

1)NNBE - The ACC stub teams are not interested in being in a league with UCF, Houston, Boise and SDSU. SMU probably isn't completely repulsive. The Big East moved to save itself, but in so doing, became less attractive as a merger candidate. I suspect whoever remains in the ACC will try to add a few Big East schools, likely Rutgers and UConn, when the time comes.

2) Shortage of lifeboats - From experience, we know that every program in the ACC is trying to find a lifeboat at this point. FSU is in the driver's seat, but UNC and UVa are in great shape too. VTech and Clemson have a decent shot of finding a home. They are not going to lock in to some amalgamation of ACC plus whoever from the Big East if they can get out to the Big 10, SEC or Big 12.

3) Networks - Networks aren't going to ink a deal with a stub league until they know what it looks like. 1 and 2 above create problems in this vein. The bigger issue is that ESPN still has an exclusive negotiation right with the ACC, which means it has the ACC by the balls. If 4 or 5 ACC teams leave, it is not clear that the remaining 9 or 10 will get a better deal than the Big East since, unlike the Big East, the ACC is only allowed to negotiate with one buyer.

The ACC should have merged into the Big East when the Big East was in backdoor negotiations with NBC. Both leagues were stable, and the Big East was not burdened by a lousy TV deal. Now, the Big East is ****ed, the ACC is about to be, and there isn't a good solution for either of them.
 
A few points:

(1) I still continue to perplexed as to how many people are falling for supposed Big 12 information that is originating from WEST VIRGINIA (repeat: WEST VIRGINIA THAT'S NOT A MEMBER OF THE BIG 12 YET AND CAN'T VOTE ON EXPANSION), other than they are so biased against the ACC that they are projecting their hopes into a belief that FSU and Clemson will leave. When there is information that originating from Texas regarding the Big 12, then I'll listen.

(2) Even if FSU and Clemson going to the Big 12 were a possibility, university presidents ultimately aren't that stupid. Remember the old adage of being "penny wise and pound foolish". Could the Big 12 be receiving a larger amount of TV dollars in the short term than the ACC? Sure. Do you think these university presidents have collective amnesia where they forgot that the Big 12 almost died TWICE in the past two years simply because one school (Texas) flirts a little bit? I don't think so. Remember that you had schools like Kansas asking whether they could join the Big East a couple of years ago. A new TV contract doesn't make everything hunky dory when you're looking at the long-term (and a 6-year assignment of TV rights is NOT long-term in college conference speak). I'm someone that pointed out in the very beginning (when the Big Ten was looking to expand) how important TV rights are to conference realignment when most fans just thought geography and rivalries mattered (which is how my blog ended up getting so widely read), yet now it feels like it's gone in the other direction where there's a belief that's *all* that schools care about. That simply isn't true. Otherwise, schools would just jump around every time that the latest big TV contract is signed. The most important factor in choosing a conference (even over TV rights) is STABILITY. That's something that the ACC has and the Big 12 simply won't ever have because the Big 12 is so dependent upon a single school (Texas).

(3) There is only one power conference where ESPN owns 100% of the TV rights to: the ACC. Repeat: the ACC is the ONLY power conference that ESPN owns ALL of the TV rights from top to bottom. I'm sure there are plenty of people here that believe that ESPN had a hand in the ACC raiding the Big East this past year. If you believe that to be true, how is it in the best interests of ESPN to nickel and dime the ACC in its contract renegotiation to the point where its most valuable football school (FSU) would leave? Think about the big picture. Maybe the ACC ultimately won't make more than the Big 12, but ESPN is going to pay enough to ensure that no ACC school is going to leave for the Big 12 (or at least that it's not going to be about a lack of TV money). Whatever you think of the people in Bristol, they are the BEST in the business on the financial side of the house and they know when they need to pay up (and alternatively, when they don't need to pay up). This is one of those instances where they know that they'll need to pay up because they have a larger interest in protecting the ACC over ANY other college conference.

In case you are wondering, I have no dog in the ACC hunt at all. Duke is my least favorite sports team (college or pro) anywhere, so I'd personally love it if they were relegated to the Southern Conference. However, it bothers me a lot that a ridiculous rumor has been getting so much traction where biases against the ACC or for the Big 12 have been coloring people's perceptions.
 
A few problems with working cooperatively.

1)NNBE - The ACC stub teams are not interested in being in a league with UCF, Houston, Boise and SDSU. SMU probably isn't completely repulsive. The Big East moved to save itself, but in so doing, became less attractive as a merger candidate. I suspect whoever remains in the ACC will try to add a few Big East schools, likely Rutgers and UConn, when the time comes.

2) Shortage of lifeboats - From experience, we know that every program in the ACC is trying to find a lifeboat at this point. FSU is in the driver's seat, but UNC and UVa are in great shape too. VTech and Clemson have a decent shot of finding a home. They are not going to lock in to some amalgamation of ACC plus whoever from the Big East if they can get out to the Big 10, SEC or Big 12.

3) Networks - Networks aren't going to ink a deal with a stub league until they know what it looks like. 1 and 2 above create problems in this vein. The bigger issue is that ESPN still has an exclusive negotiation right with the ACC, which means it has the ACC by the balls. If 4 or 5 ACC teams leave, it is not clear that the remaining 9 or 10 will get a better deal than the Big East since, unlike the Big East, the ACC is only allowed to negotiate with one buyer.

The ACC should have merged into the Big East when the Big East was in backdoor negotiations with NBC. Both leagues were stable, and the Big East was not burdened by a lousy TV deal. Now, the Big East is ****ed, the ACC is about to be, and there isn't a good solution for either of them.


That's my point. At least one intelligent university president is bound to realize that walking out on the Big East and ACC and forming a new league with the best schools is the ideal solution. It would allow them to ditch the western schools and or some of the directionals if need be. They could then form the best possible conference while being able to get a new contract. Both leagues are dying, why not join hands and jump ship? If FSU etc. decline to come, you know they were out the door anyway.
 
A few points:

(1) I still continue to perplexed as to how many people are falling for supposed Big 12 information that is originating from WEST VIRGINIA (repeat: WEST VIRGINIA THAT'S NOT A MEMBER OF THE BIG 12 YET AND CAN'T VOTE ON EXPANSION), other than they are so biased against the ACC that they are projecting their hopes into a belief that FSU and Clemson will leave. When there is information that originating from Texas regarding the Big 12, then I'll listen.

(2) Even if FSU and Clemson going to the Big 12 were a possibility, university presidents ultimately aren't that stupid. Remember the old adage of being "penny wise and pound foolish". Could the Big 12 be receiving a larger amount of TV dollars in the short term than the ACC? Sure. Do you think these university presidents have collective amnesia where they forgot that the Big 12 almost died TWICE in the past two years simply because one school (Texas) flirts a little bit? I don't think so. Remember that you had schools like Kansas asking whether they could join the Big East a couple of years ago. A new TV contract doesn't make everything hunky dory when you're looking at the long-term (and a 6-year assignment of TV rights is NOT long-term in college conference speak). I'm someone that pointed out in the very beginning (when the Big Ten was looking to expand) how important TV rights are to conference realignment when most fans just thought geography and rivalries mattered (which is how my blog ended up getting so widely read), yet now it feels like it's gone in the other direction where there's a belief that's *all* that schools care about. That simply isn't true. Otherwise, schools would just jump around every time that the latest big TV contract is signed. The most important factor in choosing a conference (even over TV rights) is STABILITY. That's something that the ACC has and the Big 12 simply won't ever have because the Big 12 is so dependent upon a single school (Texas).

(3) There is only one power conference where ESPN owns 100% of the TV rights to: the ACC. Repeat: the ACC is the ONLY power conference that ESPN owns ALL of the TV rights from top to bottom. I'm sure there are plenty of people here that believe that ESPN had a hand in the ACC raiding the Big East this past year. If you believe that to be true, how is it in the best interests of ESPN to nickel and dime the ACC in its contract renegotiation to the point where its most valuable football school (FSU) would leave? Think about the big picture. Maybe the ACC ultimately won't make more than the Big 12, but ESPN is going to pay enough to ensure that no ACC school is going to leave for the Big 12 (or at least that it's not going to be about a lack of TV money). Whatever you think of the people in Bristol, they are the BEST in the business on the financial side of the house and they know when they need to pay up (and alternatively, when they don't need to pay up). This is one of those instances where they know that they'll need to pay up because they have a larger interest in protecting the ACC over ANY other college conference.

In case you are wondering, I have no dog in the ACC hunt at all. Duke is my least favorite sports team (college or pro) anywhere, so I'd personally love it if they were relegated to the Southern Conference. However, it bothers me a lot that a ridiculous rumor has been getting so much traction where biases against the ACC or for the Big 12 have been coloring people's perceptions.

Frank,

Have you heard anything regarding the rumor that the ACC money will come back at around 18 million per school with the caveat that the schools sign a grant of rights for the duration of the contract?

Personally, I don't see FSU or Clemson ever signing a GOR to the ACC. At the very least this will force their hands.
 
A few points:

(1) I still continue to perplexed as to how many people are falling for supposed Big 12 information that is originating from WEST VIRGINIA (repeat: WEST VIRGINIA THAT'S NOT A MEMBER OF THE BIG 12 YET AND CAN'T VOTE ON EXPANSION), other than they are so biased against the ACC that they are projecting their hopes into a belief that FSU and Clemson will leave. When there is information that originating from Texas regarding the Big 12, then I'll listen.

(2) Even if FSU and Clemson going to the Big 12 were a possibility, university presidents ultimately aren't that stupid. Remember the old adage of being "penny wise and pound foolish". Could the Big 12 be receiving a larger amount of TV dollars in the short term than the ACC? Sure. Do you think these university presidents have collective amnesia where they forgot that the Big 12 almost died TWICE in the past two years simply because one school (Texas) flirts a little bit? I don't think so. Remember that you had schools like Kansas asking whether they could join the Big East a couple of years ago. A new TV contract doesn't make everything hunky dory when you're looking at the long-term (and a 6-year assignment of TV rights is NOT long-term in college conference speak). I'm someone that pointed out in the very beginning (when the Big Ten was looking to expand) how important TV rights are to conference realignment when most fans just thought geography and rivalries mattered (which is how my blog ended up getting so widely read), yet now it feels like it's gone in the other direction where there's a belief that's *all* that schools care about. That simply isn't true. Otherwise, schools would just jump around every time that the latest big TV contract is signed. The most important factor in choosing a conference (even over TV rights) is STABILITY. That's something that the ACC has and the Big 12 simply won't ever have because the Big 12 is so dependent upon a single school (Texas).

(3) There is only one power conference where ESPN owns 100% of the TV rights to: the ACC. Repeat: the ACC is the ONLY power conference that ESPN owns ALL of the TV rights from top to bottom. I'm sure there are plenty of people here that believe that ESPN had a hand in the ACC raiding the Big East this past year. If you believe that to be true, how is it in the best interests of ESPN to nickel and dime the ACC in its contract renegotiation to the point where its most valuable football school (FSU) would leave? Think about the big picture. Maybe the ACC ultimately won't make more than the Big 12, but ESPN is going to pay enough to ensure that no ACC school is going to leave for the Big 12 (or at least that it's not going to be about a lack of TV money). Whatever you think of the people in Bristol, they are the BEST in the business on the financial side of the house and they know when they need to pay up (and alternatively, when they don't need to pay up). This is one of those instances where they know that they'll need to pay up because they have a larger interest in protecting the ACC over ANY other college conference.

In case you are wondering, I have no dog in the ACC hunt at all. Duke is my least favorite sports team (college or pro) anywhere, so I'd personally love it if they were relegated to the Southern Conference. However, it bothers me a lot that a ridiculous rumor has been getting so much traction where biases against the ACC or for the Big 12 have been coloring people's perceptions.


The issue that you are ignoring is that the ACC is boring and mediocre right now and the term "the 4 power conferences" keeps being uttered in the media. The ACC is losing its luster and nothing can be done about it. With Espn controlling all ACC property, the other networks will entirely dismiss it and walk all over it. The ACC has seen its best days and is not a power conference any more. A reconstructed east coast conference is the solution. All state U's plus a handful of select privates.
 
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I believe the ACC has tried to add Texas and ND.
It's easy to look back and suggest what the ACC could have done.

The only mistake was not considering WVU. This gives the Big12 an eastern foothold and now makes the ACC ripe for picking not only from the SEC but also the Big12.
Ouside of WVU, what other schools could have been added to increase the ACC football brand? UofL and Cincy are not really in the ACC footprint. Uconn and Rutgers are still there so no reason to act yet. Syr and Pitt were the two best options at the time. WVU would have been a great move as well, and that's the decision that could huant the ACC for some time.
 
[quote="In case you are wondering, I have no dog in the ACC hunt at all. Duke is my least favorite sports team (college or pro) anywhere, so I'd personally love it if they were relegated to the Southern Conference. However, it bothers me a lot that a ridiculous rumor has been getting so much traction where biases against the ACC or for the Big 12 have been coloring people's perceptions.[/quote]

Frank,
Not sure that ESPN cares about the survival of the ACC as much as you think. ESPN is putting serious $'s behind the Big12. In the end, with only 4 super-conferences, ESPN is banking that they can increase viewership and pay less $'s because they are forcing the conferences to essentially get rid of the dead-weights. If the Big12 expands at the expense of the ACC, where is the ACC going for replacements. The Big East.
So, at the end of the day, ESPN at worst could be paying the ACC $15M/year for a league that is pretty much the best of the BE and what's left of of the ACC after Big12 and SEC raids. Assuming that leaves Uconn, Rutgers, Duke, BC, WF, Pitt, Syr, Virginia, MD, UNC, USF, Temple (or some other)... If this happens, ESPN isn't going to be returning Marinatto's calls anytime soon. There would be nothing left in the NBE of value.
ESPN is very good... If this works, and the BE and ACC essentially cease to exist as big-time conferences, ESPN is a genius. And WVU should be thanking the ACC for not accepting them. Not only does this lock ESPN in, but what is left for Fox or NBC to bid on? The NBE without any founding members.
Winners: ESPN, WVU, SEC, Big12, Big10, Pac12
Losers: ACC, BE (both got played like fiddle)[/quote]
 
The issue that you are ignoring is that the ACC is boring and mediocre right now and the term "the 4 power conferences" keeps being uttered in the media. The ACC is losing its luster and nothing can be done about it. With Espn controlling all ACC property, the other networks will entirely dismiss it and walk all over it. The ACC has seen its best days and is not a power conference any more. A reconstructed east coast conference is the solution. All state U's plus a handful of select privates.

Who is saying "4 power conferences"? Fans on message boards, jocks that are on-the-field analysts, or people that actually report and understand the *business* side of college sports? The media people that have actually been reporting on the ins and outs of the college sports business ALWAYS include the ACC among the power conferences without exception. Why do you think Virginia Tech got an invite to a BCS bowl last year instead of a higher ranked Big 12 team (Kansas State)? If the Big 12 could get freaking Florida State and Clemson to join, why the heck did they even bother with West Virginia and TCU? Note that the Big 12 had a great TV deal with Fox extended last year and were talking about an assignment of rights then, and yet Texas A&M and Missouri STILL left.

I've said this elsewhere: I completely believe in the power of Texas as a school, but absolutely no one should have faith in the power of the Big 12 as a conference. Now, I believe that Texas has a need for control even beyond money, so they'll stay in the Big 12 since it's their own fiefdom, but that doesn't mean that the other Big 12 schools actually want to be there. Strong conferences need to be bound by something other than money (e.g. academics, geography, rivalries) or else schools will just leave for the next great TV deal. Both the Big 12 and Big East were solely bound by their TV contracts, so when other conferences offered more, they bolted ASAP.
 
A few points:

(1) I still continue to perplexed as to how many people are falling for supposed Big 12 information that is originating from WEST VIRGINIA (repeat: WEST VIRGINIA THAT'S NOT A MEMBER OF THE BIG 12 YET AND CAN'T VOTE ON EXPANSION), other than they are so biased against the ACC that they are projecting their hopes into a belief that FSU and Clemson will leave. When there is information that originating from Texas regarding the Big 12, then I'll listen.

(2) Even if FSU and Clemson going to the Big 12 were a possibility, university presidents ultimately aren't that stupid. Remember the old adage of being "penny wise and pound foolish". Could the Big 12 be receiving a larger amount of TV dollars in the short term than the ACC? Sure. Do you think these university presidents have collective amnesia where they forgot that the Big 12 almost died TWICE in the past two years simply because one school (Texas) flirts a little bit? I don't think so. Remember that you had schools like Kansas asking whether they could join the Big East a couple of years ago. A new TV contract doesn't make everything hunky dory when you're looking at the long-term (and a 6-year assignment of TV rights is NOT long-term in college conference speak). I'm someone that pointed out in the very beginning (when the Big Ten was looking to expand) how important TV rights are to conference realignment when most fans just thought geography and rivalries mattered (which is how my blog ended up getting so widely read), yet now it feels like it's gone in the other direction where there's a belief that's *all* that schools care about. That simply isn't true. Otherwise, schools would just jump around every time that the latest big TV contract is signed. The most important factor in choosing a conference (even over TV rights) is STABILITY. That's something that the ACC has and the Big 12 simply won't ever have because the Big 12 is so dependent upon a single school (Texas).

(3) There is only one power conference where ESPN owns 100% of the TV rights to: the ACC. Repeat: the ACC is the ONLY power conference that ESPN owns ALL of the TV rights from top to bottom. I'm sure there are plenty of people here that believe that ESPN had a hand in the ACC raiding the Big East this past year. If you believe that to be true, how is it in the best interests of ESPN to nickel and dime the ACC in its contract renegotiation to the point where its most valuable football school (FSU) would leave? Think about the big picture. Maybe the ACC ultimately won't make more than the Big 12, but ESPN is going to pay enough to ensure that no ACC school is going to leave for the Big 12 (or at least that it's not going to be about a lack of TV money). Whatever you think of the people in Bristol, they are the BEST in the business on the financial side of the house and they know when they need to pay up (and alternatively, when they don't need to pay up). This is one of those instances where they know that they'll need to pay up because they have a larger interest in protecting the ACC over ANY other college conference.

In case you are wondering, I have no dog in the ACC hunt at all. Duke is my least favorite sports team (college or pro) anywhere, so I'd personally love it if they were relegated to the Southern Conference. However, it bothers me a lot that a ridiculous rumor has been getting so much traction where biases against the ACC or for the Big 12 have been coloring people's perceptions.

This is the argument of a football fan, not a business person. The Big 12 has granted TV rights for 12 years. It doesn't get more stable than that. One of those schools leaves, they play for free until the end of the rights' grant. The ACC may or may not have a $20 million separation fee, which is very manageable considering the revenue gap between the Big 12 and ACC. The ACC is only as stable as the last offer to leave. I believe FSU and someone else are going to get an offer fairly soon, possibly before 6/30, and then we will learn just how (un)stable the ACC really is.

Do you understand how much money it would cost ESPN to bridge that revenue gap? 14 schools X $8MM/School = $112 million PER YEAR. Do you think ESPN has any interest in unilaterally increasing its costs by $112 million per year? The ACC is locked into a long-term deal with ESPN that ESPN does not have to touch. ESPN already destroyed one league to save money, it will have no remorse for destroying another.

The ACC, more than any league, is bifurcated in terms of the value of the various programs. There are several, such as FSU, VTech, UNC, UVa, and Clemson, that justify major dollars on their own in any league. There are others, such as Georgia Tech, NC State, Pitt, Maryland and Syracuse, which could have value in the right conference, but as stand alone programs and without historical rivalries, they are not that valuable. Then there are schools like Wake Forest, Duke, Miami and BC which are virtually worthless to TV and are dragging down the value of the rest of the programs.

Miami football gets way more press than it deserves, in my opinion because so many of today's sportscasters grew up during an era when Miami was dominant. Old timers don't think twice about Miami and neither do most younger fans. Miami may draw 25k or so of actual fans in the seats for any but the most marquee matchups, and the basketball program draws about 4k. Duke basketball is an outlier among the bottom 4. That program has a lot of value, but not enough to save a football program that may be the least followed of any major conference program.

If you were to start this league from scratch, as a TV exec, you would take the top 5, add GT, NCSU and Maryland, and include Duke as a basketball only. The rest are dead weight within the construct of the ACC. Pitt is not nearly as interesting without WVU, ND, and its budding rivalries with Louisville and Cincinnati. Pitt basketball without a New York City pipeline is worthless, and I expect Jamie Dixon to be gone within a year. Syracuse is not that interesting as a far northern outpost in a dying region of the country. In the right league, both schools could be major assets. I don't think the ACC is that league, particularly after it gets gutted.
 
Frank -

I have read your writings and I think you usually have a good read on conference realignment. But, I do think there are a few issues that could drive teams from the ACC both proactively and reactively. What are the key issues?

1. Will the SEC go to 16?
2. Will Big 1G expand beyond 12?

If you are the president of an ACC school, you need to make a judgement on the answers to these questions and then determine if your school is in or out. Then you have to decide if you need to be proactive or reactive. As the Big East learned from experience, you don't want to be reactive.

If the SEC goes to 16, there are four attractive teams Texas, Oklahoma, VT, and NC State as three bring new markets and Texas is Texas. Clemson and FSU are possibilities, but they don't add new markets.

If the Big 1G expands the most attractive candidates are ACC schools such as Maryland, UNC, and UVA, with ND. Florida State and Clemson are not on the list.

Maybe conferences won't expand from here, but is you are FSU and Clemson, you have to be thinking about the future which is why they have to think long and hard about the Big 12.

By the way, I think ESPN really cares about ACC basketball more than ACC football as ACC football can be easily replaced, especially if the best football schools go to new conferences.
 
Who is saying "4 power conferences"? Fans on message boards, jocks that are on-the-field analysts, or people that actually report and understand the *business* side of college sports? The media people that have actually been reporting on the ins and outs of the college sports business ALWAYS include the ACC among the power conferences without exception. Why do you think Virginia Tech got an invite to a BCS bowl last year instead of a higher ranked Big 12 team (Kansas State)? If the Big 12 could get freaking Florida State and Clemson to join, why the heck did they even bother with West Virginia and TCU? Note that the Big 12 had a great TV deal with Fox extended last year and were talking about an assignment of rights then, and yet Texas A&M and Missouri STILL left.

I've said this elsewhere: I completely believe in the power of Texas as a school, but absolutely no one should have faith in the power of the Big 12 as a conference. Now, I believe that Texas has a need for control even beyond money, so they'll stay in the Big 12 since it's their own fiefdom, but that doesn't mean that the other Big 12 schools actually want to be there. Strong conferences need to be bound by something other than money (e.g. academics, geography, rivalries) or else schools will just leave for the next great TV deal. Both the Big 12 and Big East were solely bound by their TV contracts, so when other conferences offered more, they bolted ASAP.

This is cute. Very August/October of 2011, but cute none the less. You keep throwing shit at the wall, maybe something will stick.
 
.-.
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