ACC

[RS9999X]

I may have agreed with you on the ESPN status quo idea if the new Big 12 contract didn't seem so expansion friendly. And the number is more than $20MM per school for the Big 12. The ACC has to be freaking out right now, because Cincinnati and Louisville are not even among the Top 5 targets for the Big 12. After BYU, all the best targets are in the ACC.

Let's forget Cincy.

The rumblings on all the B12 Message Boards are "OK with the B10" and "OK with FSU and Clemson" and not much meat.

The Clemson Boards are as bad. They do have some interesting Tier 3 media discussions including Raycom and some other regionals and radio rights that could be holding up the ESPN renegotiation announcement as multiple smaller contracts are worked out

 

[HuskyHawk]

FYI - for statistics sake. The population of New York City boroughs is accepted to be approx 8,750,000 or so.

THe entire populations of Alabama and Louisiana is less than that.

If you extend out to the surrounding counties immediately bordering NYC in New Jersey, Connecticut and New York State, the population in an area that takes less than 2 hours to drive across (without traffic) is greater than the combined populations of Mississippi, Louisiana, Alabama and Arkansas.

THat's our market, and we've got an incredible amount of growth potential, and I didn't even talk about the actual sizes of the connecticut and boston markets.

We've just got to be part of a league that's actually focused on growing football interest here. We haven't had it with the big east for the frist 20 years of football in the conference, and New York simply hasn't had a college football league playing championships in the city at the highest level in 4 decades and counting.

I really hope to change that next year.

Carl,

In much the way you asked if Frank ever lived in the Northeast, I'd ask if you ever lived anywhere else. The difference is astonishing. I can't even get an NCAA tournament game on TV in a sports bar in Boston (NY is the same) if it conflicts with the Celtics or Bruins...or Karaoke night. In Chicago, almost everybody in the city went to Michican, U Ill, IU, Iowa, Northwestern, Wisconsin etc. In NY, maybe 5% of the population went to a school that even played BCS football. Most went to smaller private schools. It's the same in cities across the midwest. Almost everyone in KC went to KU, KState, Mizzou, Iowa, Iowa State, Arkansas etc. When you walk into a sports bar...Big 12 stuff covers the walls. In New York, I challenge you to find anything similar. The only school that even registers is Notre Dame...and maybe Penn State. No Big East football game will knock a Nets, Knicks, Rangers or Islanders games off the TV screens in NY.

It's hard for us to comprehend, but in the northeast a tiny minorty of college grads attend public colleges that play football (hell, I'll even count UMass, URI, UNH, UVM etc.). In the midwest, those schools account for most of the college grads. The differece in mindset is huge. I will disagree on California however. While there are a lot of UCLA and USC grads in LA, they are so apathetic about sports that it is of little value. Stanford and Cal are even less relevant in NoCal. Based on my experience, Santa Clara and San Jose St. grads were more likely to be college sports fans. The Networks blew it with the Pac 10 deal. UDub definitely rules Seattle, and the Arizona schools do in Phoenix, but nothing will convert Californians to be major college sports fans.

 

[MidTown Husky]

Where's 'Fromtheinside'? Probably at some TV meetings

 

[uconnbaseball]

Huskyhawk:

If UConn and Rutgers are playing for a Big East title, we can take on the islanders!

 

[HuskyHawk]

Huskyhawk:

If UConn and Rutgers are playing for a Big East title, we can take on the islanders!

Probably...the best we can offer against the worst pro franchise in NY, we might get some of the TVs switched to that game. But it will never be like what happens across the south and midwest. If Mizzou is playing Arkansas, the Blues have no chance in a St. Louis bar. Nor the Memphis Grizzlies or Nashville Predators against a Vols football game. They will never go head to head against the NFL, but I would guess that UGA, the Vols and certainly Florida (over Jax) would knock out even their respective pro football teams. So might Michigan vs. the Lions. Imagine UConn-Rutgers against a NY Giant's game.

 

[Marty Jackson]

I think the alums are a piece of the puzzle. But Michigan or Alabama are not filling their stadium with alums. These programs have a huge headstart in becoming entrenched into the fabric of daily life. Kids grow up down south watching Alabama. Their parents watched Auburn or Alabama on TV and maybe attended a few games.
I grew up in CT during the 70's and didn't watch too much college football. New about ND and BC but didn't really have any interest because it wasn't around me.
And, i certainly didn't attend any games.
But, now that uconn has a program, I have been to several games, and my son loves going (he's 11). May even purchase season tickets.
he is going to grow up a uconn fan, even if he doesn't attend the school. he is going to remember going to Uconn games as a kid, and if he's in the area, he'll someday bring his kids.
I have to assume that I'm no different from many other dads in the area that didn't grow up with college football. But, these are the roots that are being planted in CT and the northeast now that Uconn plays 'big-time' football. It's a game of catchup with the regions where football has been big for 2 or 3 generations.
It's not going to happen overnight, but with more kids growing up and seeing uconn on the field with ND and Michigan, you can bet that interest in the fb program is going to increase exponentially.

 

[Marty Jackson]

Probably...the best we can offer against the worst pro franchise in NY, we might get some of the TVs switched to that game. But it will never be like what happens across the south and midwest. If Mizzou is playing Arkansas, the Blues have no chance in a St. Louis bar. Nor the Memphis Grizzlies or Nashville Predators against a Vols football game. They will never go head to head against the NFL, but I would guess that UGA, the Vols and certainly Florida (over Jax) would knock out even their respective pro football teams. So might Michigan vs. the Lions. Imagine UConn-Rutgers against a NY Giant's game.

You're theory is bunk... You seem to have missed the Bears over the illini. or the packers over Wisconsin... how about the Dolphins over the Hurricanes.
Imagine a Big10 battle of the Illini vs northwestern going head to head against the Bears vs Packers...
Or, how about the National Championship between any team against the Superbowl in any city between any team. Who wins that? if Alabama isn't playing, I bet the superbowl even in Tuscaloosa.

 

[HuskyHawk]

You're theory is bunk... You seem to have missed the Bears over the illini. or the packers over Wisconsin... how about the Dolphins over the Hurricanes.
Imagine a Big10 battle of the Illini vs northwestern going head to head against the Bears vs Packers...
Or, how about the National Championship between any team against the Superbowl in any city between any team. Who wins that? if Alabama isn't playing, I bet the superbowl even in Tuscaloosa.

I didn't mention them because I agree with you in those cases. The Bears and Packers are huge. But that's not the competition, the Blackhawks, Bulls and Bucks are in most cases. I agree with you on the fabric of the society as well, that's a big part of it. But one of the reasons they are so big a part of the social consciousness is that so many of the people go to those schools. If you didn't, your brother, dad, mom or cousin did.

Here in Massachusetts I've known less than 10 people since 2000 that went to UMass Amherst. I live on the RI border and not a single person I know in RI went to URI. None of them. UConn does better in this regard, but isn't close to where the big southern and midwestern schools are in their states. It is a huge disadvantage. By the way, I think it is one that is shared by some of the ACC schools, like Maryland.

 

[frankthetank]

I didn't mention them because I agree with you in those cases. The Bears and Packers are huge. But that's not the competition, the Blackhawks, Bulls and Bucks are in most cases. I agree with you on the fabric of the society as well, that's a big part of it. But one of the reasons they are so big a part of the social consciousness is that so many of the people go to those schools. If you didn't, your brother, dad, mom or cousin did.

Here in Massachusetts I've known less than 10 people since 2000 that went to UMass Amherst. I live on the RI border and not a single person I know in RI went to URI. None of them. UConn does better in this regard, but isn't close to where the big southern and midwestern schools are in their states. It is a huge disadvantage. By the way, I think it is one that is shared by some of the ACC schools, like Maryland.

Yes, this is my main point. (And for the record, I'm a lifelong Chicagoan.) Chicago and Milwaukee are pro sports towns, for sure, and the NFL absolutely rules the day. In fact, they are bigger NFL towns than even the Northeastern markets. However, those Midwestern markets still have highly concentrated numbers of Big Ten alums that is far beyond what is comparable for the Big East (or any other conference) in the Northeast.

It's simple math. The Big Ten schools are larger than their Northeastern public school counterparts and, outside of Chicago, are largely sending alums into Midwestern markets that are smaller than the Northeastern markets. It's same thing with SEC and ACC schools in Southern markets, Big 12 schools in the Texas and Great Plains markets and even the Pac-12 schools in the West Coast markets outside of LA. When there are enough alums from a conference in a particular market, then the local media needs to pay attention to such conference more, and that in turn draws in more interest (or at least awareness) from non-alums. The only exception to this in the history of modern college sports (AKA after TVs were in every home) is Notre Dame, which built its non-alumni fan base on the basis of ethnic and religious ties that went far beyond geography. Otherwise, non-alumni viewership has always been built upon concentrated alumni interest as the base in a particular market (not the other way around).

So, the New York City market in terms of sheer numbers might be home to more BCS graduates than any other market simply because it's the largest market overall. However, it doesn't have (and it's fair to say that it won't ever have) the concentration of alums from any one particular conference that you see in effectively every major market outside of the Northeast. That's a demographic issue that all of the marketing and TV exposure in the world can't change.

 

[Carl Spackler]

http://thequad.blogs.nytimes.com/20...-college-football-fans-and-realignment-chaos/

THere are plenty of college football fans in New York City - what they need - is not a single team, but a league to rally around. George Steinbrenner was a HUGE college football fan. I won't get into his history of his beign directly involved w/ college football - go research it. THe Mara's also big college football fans, and both have wanted to promote college football for a long time. George, and his kids are following through, wanted College football regularly in Yankee Stadium since the 1970s. The big east, if pro-active and not having their heads up their butts could have built a league that would have had 20 years going right now of football championship games in New York City to go along with the Big East b-ball tournament. The growth potential of viewership in NYC is staggering.

Look at the chart - 41% of people in Atlanta, total less than 14% of people in NYC........where else in the country can you grow college football viewership right now? Ask yourself that.

Better late that never, and check the markets that are listed in the chart. A championship game in New York City, is going to draw lots and lots of attention. I hope the first one is in 2013....sorry Middies, but we got to get this thing rolling.

Husky Hawk...I'm well traveled.

Happy Easter all.

 

[SubbaBub]

CFB and the NFL rarely if ever compete for TV eyeballs. They are played on different days.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk

 

[Carl Spackler]

By comparision for Chicago...

According to google research on college football searches.....19% of Chicago follows college football......1,756,000 fans.

IF - in NYC - you could up the interest 5% - 19%....you'd be talking about more than 2x that - 3,845,000 fans.

NYC needs a college football championship game and league to rally around, just like they did with big east basketball.

 

[Carl Spackler]

I hope that people pay attention to that NY Times piece I put up. I don't think that Google is going to be screwing around with their data, and right now, with a tiny, tiny fraction of the population of NYC interested, programs like UConn and Rutgers generate more fans than Nebraska can generate with a greater than 70% share of the populations interest in Omaha.

Growth potential. Syracuse and Pitt didn't bring it to the ACC, nor did BC bring it to the ACC.

THe big east can tap that market in NYC. If the Jesuit college backbone can't make it work, the big 10 is next line, and they're already working their way in with scheduling..... and we stay tied to whoever owns the northeast corridor and we stay connected to the NOtre Dame athletic department no matter how convoluted it is.

Warde Manuel - go out and get us a multi-year extension with Michigan, and we'll play some games in Yankee Stadium........Notre Dame can have army....in the city. BLechh. Michigan can have UConn.

 

[ConnHuskBask]

Growth potential. Syracuse and Pitt didn't bring it to the ACC, nor did BC bring it to the ACC.

THe big east can tap that market in NYC. If the Jesuit college backbone can't make it work, the big 10 is next line, and they're already working their way in with scheduling..... and we stay tied to whoever owns the northeast corridor and we stay connected to the NOtre Dame athletic department no matter how convoluted it is.

Right. Syracuse, Pitt and BC didn't make NYC care about college football, but an assortment of mid major teams from around the United States will?

Everything you are saying I would have believed - back in the early 2000s. For whatever reason, the Big East never fully capitalized on the resources they had and now it's just too late.

You're right - NYC is a huge untapped market for college football. But if the conference filled with tradition Northeastern schools couldn't move the needle, San Diego State, Houston and Central Florida, etc. sure as hell aren't either.

Just give me 1 good reason why a casual sports fan in New York City is going to watch Central Florida vs. SMU when they didn't watch Syracuse vs. Pitt? Because a championship game that's played in Yankee Stadium once a year? Which will be a monumental disaster if the teams aren't Rutgers vs. UConn every season?

 

[Dann]

only way any league grabs nyc is the acc and with nd/psu/ruty/cuse/uconn/bc/md/pitt/vt

 

[Carl Spackler]

For somethign to grow, it takes being able to plant seeds, sunlight and water and soil, and the effort and time of tending to it. Growth cannot happen, where there is no room for growth though and the soil and water supplies are already tapped out. No matter how much time and effort you put into it, and that's the problem that college football people are running into around the country that has become so 'regionalized' with audiences around college football.

All it's going to take in NYC is somebody to spark it, and stoke the flame. THere's a huge void in the college sports world in New York City that was left for a few decades after the Ivy league poo pooing post season college bowl system and then bowing out of the top level of competition in football.

The big east conference is the only conference that was in position to fill that void, and the leadership had their heads up their butts with basketball, and the misconception that basketball would be able to maintain....well Iv'e written enough about that.

It will take more time and effort than it would have in the past, with the membership of the conference now, but the reason why a casual college football fan in NYC would tune into a UCF v. SMU championship game?

Why? Because it's happening in NYC. That's the thing about New Yorkers. Everything is better in NY.

 

[frankthetank]

Carl - that Google data (which I've seen before) is displaying exactly what I said: NYC might have the sheer numbers for college football fans, but the penetration is low. I know exactly why the Steinbrenners care about college football and the reason is because George was a coach at Northwestern (a Big Ten school). Even if NYC were to raise its interest level by 5%, the issue is that even the 14% that exists today is spread across many different schools and conferences. In contrast, the 19% in Chicago is virtually all about the Big Ten and Notre Dame, while the 17% in LA is virtually all about the Pac-12. Philadelphia is at the 20% level (which is essentially the goal that you have for NYC) and they have the benefit of a massive in-state flagship marquee football school of Penn State where tons of its alums live.

So, I've never questioned that college football fans exist in NYC (which is true simply because of its massive population base), but rather I've questioned (and conferences themselves have questioned) whether any single conference could actually control that market. Trust me on this - there was nothing that the Big Ten studied more diligently in its last expansion process than whether it was possible for any school or combo of schools to deliver the NYC market. (And when I say "deliver the NYC market", I mean that there's enough interest to get the Big Ten Network onto basic cable.) The Big Ten went for Nebraska instead. Then, the ACC went for Syracuse and Pitt. Cuse has a bunch of NYC market fans, but Pitt basically has the same number of NYC alums as a random Big Ten or ACC school.

Are all of these conferences just oblivious that the NYC market is the largest one out there? Did they forget that NYC exists? Of course not! The proof is in their actions as to whether they think the NYC market can be monetized. Jim Delany might annoy college football fans overall, but he's NOT stupid and he's better at finding conference revenue than anyone else out there. Could the Big Ten and ACC be wrong? It's certainly possible. However, it won't be because they didn't bother to look at the issue of the NYC market heavily.

My final point: if the old Big East that aggregated Miami, Syracuse, Rutgers, Pitt, Virginia Tech and West Virginia all together couldn't deliver the NYC market, why is there faith that UConn and Rutgers alone would be able to do it? What makes that smaller combo more likely to raise that 14% NYC number than what was by all measures a stronger league with bigger brand names with more NYC-based alums before?

To be clear, I believe that the Big East can survive and even make a decent amount of money with a new TV deal, but I also believe that the NYC market is completely fool's gold.

 

[SubbaBub]

You know what delivers the NYC market?

Winners.

That leaves out Snooki.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk

 

[RS9999X]

So, the New York City market in terms of sheer numbers might be home to more BCS graduates than any other market simply because it's the largest market overall. However, it doesn't have (and it's fair to say that it won't ever have) the concentration of alums from any one particular conference that you see in effectively every major market outside of the Northeast. That's a demographic issue that all of the marketing and TV exposure in the world can't change.

Ivy's and International in NYC

It's the difference between Agrarian and Industrial states versus InfoTech and Finance driven employment

 

[Duncan Idaho]

For somethign to grow, it takes being able to plant seeds, sunlight and water and soil, and the effort and time of tending to it. Growth cannot happen, where there is no room for growth though and the soil and water supplies are already tapped out. No matter how much time and effort you put into it, and that's the problem that college football people are running into around the country that has become so 'regionalized' with audiences around college football.

All it's going to take in NYC is somebody to spark it, and stoke the flame. THere's a huge void in the college sports world in New York City that was left for a few decades after the Ivy league poo pooing post season college bowl system and then bowing out of the top level of competition in football.

The big east conference is the only conference that was in position to fill that void, and the leadership had their heads up their butts with basketball, and the misconception that basketball would be able to maintain....well Iv'e written enough about that.

It will take more time and effort than it would have in the past, with the membership of the conference now, but the reason why a casual college football fan in NYC would tune into a UCF v. SMU championship game?

Why? Because it's happening in NYC. That's the thing about New Yorkers. Everything is better in NY.

Eerily reminds me of Peter Sellers/Chauncey the Gardener from the movie "Being There".

 

[BarkingDog]

I don't have anything to add to the conversation, just wanted to make sure I had at least one post in the longest thread in the history of the boneyard.

 

[Dann]

I don't have anything to add to the conversation, just wanted to make sure I had at least one post in the longest thread in the history of the boneyard.

u need to check all of carls links and understand them before u post in this thread. get going.

 

[Marty Jackson]

I didn't mention them because I agree with you in those cases. The Bears and Packers are huge. But that's not the competition, the Blackhawks, Bulls and Bucks are in most cases. I agree with you on the fabric of the society as well, that's a big part of it. But one of the reasons they are so big a part of the social consciousness is that so many of the people go to those schools. If you didn't, your brother, dad, mom or cousin did.

Here in Massachusetts I've known less than 10 people since 2000 that went to UMass Amherst. I live on the RI border and not a single person I know in RI went to URI. None of them. UConn does better in this regard, but isn't close to where the big southern and midwestern schools are in their states. It is a huge disadvantage. By the way, I think it is one that is shared by some of the ACC schools, like Maryland.

I live in MA... My wife went to Umass Amherst, several of my neighbors went to Umass, and I have neighbors kids trying to get into Umass Amherst. In MA, there are a lot of UMass Alums. I would venture to say that there are more alums of Umass than than any other school in the state. The fact you don't know any is pure luck...
I can't speak to much about URI, but I work in RI and have come across a few people from the school. I'm sure if you are in Providence, you'll find some URI grads.

 

[Marty Jackson]

Right. Syracuse, Pitt and BC didn't make NYC care about college football, but an assortment of mid major teams from around the United States will?

Everything you are saying I would have believed - back in the early 2000s. For whatever reason, the Big East never fully capitalized on the resources they had and now it's just too late.

You're right - NYC is a huge untapped market for college football. But if the conference filled with tradition Northeastern schools couldn't move the needle, San Diego State, Houston and Central Florida, etc. sure as hell aren't either.

Just give me 1 good reason why a casual sports fan in New York City is going to watch Central Florida vs. SMU when they didn't watch Syracuse vs. Pitt? Because a championship game that's played in Yankee Stadium once a year? Which will be a monumental disaster if the teams aren't Rutgers vs. UConn every season?

NYC is a huge market that people felt even the Olympics might get lost in.
I don't think the BE needs to garner a huge piece of the pie to be successful simply because of the large numbers.
But BE BB definitely resonates with the city. And it's not just St. John's that's doing it. It's the closeness of all the schools and the ability for most of the schools fans to visit during the BE tourney that makes it an event.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Let's forget Cincy.

The rumblings on all the B12 Message Boards are "OK with the B10" and "OK with FSU and Clemson" and not much meat.

The Clemson Boards are as bad. They do have some interesting Tier 3 media discussions including Raycom and some other regionals and radio rights that could be holding up the ESPN renegotiation announcement as multiple smaller contracts are worked out

The Big 12 deal is going to be a lot bigger than $20-25MM per school when the Tier 3 rights are included, because the Big 12 guarantees schools Tier 3 games, something that doesn't happen in other leagues. And the Big 12 is expanding. Make the case for Louisville over FSU. Smart money is on FSU and whoever they want to bring.