52-14

[Conndog]

We played like garbage tonight. The officiating wasn't the issue. We couldn't move the ball.

And couldn't play defense (coaching needs to adjust on defense against certain teams).

 

[jayp123669]

All else was not equal is the whole thing. We got outplayed both games.

Tell me where it wasn't equal? Both shot 36% from field. One team only made 3 3pters more than the other, not like they had 10 more. UConn actually outscored them 51-44 from the field. PC had more rebounds were 41-39-pretty equal, UConn had more assists, more blocks, less turnovers, more steals...LOL

That's damn near as equal as it gets. And some would say with numbers like that UConn outplayed them. So please tell me again how against PC UConn got outplayed?

 

[Billy Jack]

For you to be right, UConn must have forgotten how to play defense after beating Oregon, Alabama, Iowa State, Oklahoma State and Florida. How does a team forget how to play defense?

UConn somehow ran that gauntlet with easy wins, but can't slow down freaking Providence without fouling?

Logic is not a strong suit of this board.

Gauntlet? Florida’s a .500 team and Oregon is just 1 game over .500. And they’re barely into their conference schedule, which is where their toughest games will be.

Logic? Your logic is that the refs beat us? No logic there.

Sometimes you just get beat. We got beat.

 

[jayp123669]

Gauntlet? Florida’s a .500 team and Oregon is just 1 game over .500. And they’re barely into their conference schedule, which is where their toughest games will be.

Logic? Your logic is that the refs beat us? No logic there.

Sometimes you just get beat. We got beat.

Glad you cherry picked 2 teams that I agree are average looking at this point. Both were essentially on the road though so that does change things and to play games consecutive is difficult especially early season. They still beat a Top 15 Bama team, a Top 25 ISU team and a very solid looking OK St. team. All 5 teams will most likely end up in the top 60 of America. So it wasn't like it was a cream puff slate and they manhandled those teams is the point I think hes making and you missed.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

Tell me where it wasn't equal? Both shot 36% from field. One team only made 3 3pters more than the other, not like they had 10 more. UConn actually outscored them 51-44 from the field. PC had more rebounds were 41-39-pretty equal, UConn had more assists, more blocks, less turnovers, more steals...LOL

That's damn near as equal as it gets. And some would say with numbers like that UConn outplayed them. So please tell me again how against PC UConn got outplayed?

Funny how you only talk about the PC game because the Xavier game doesn’t fit your narrative.

Regardless, PC had the best player on the court by a mile, and he got to the line because he drove to the hoop whenever he wanted. That account for a lot of the difference. AK couldn’t guard him and we fouled him a lot. They played better. They defended better, they outhustled us, and we were outcoached. Those things played more of a part than the refs.

 

[jayp123669]

Funny how you only talk about the PC game because the Xavier game doesn’t fit your narrative.

Regardless, PC had the best player on the court by a mile, and he got to the line because he drove to the hoop whenever he wanted. That account for a lot of the difference. AK couldn’t guard him and we fouled him a lot. They played better. They defended better, they outhustled us, and we were outcoached. Those things played more of a part than the refs.

OH... I didn't realize you wanted both. I was just talking PC because that was the most recent. I can do Xavier as well. Try this on for size...UConn ALSO outscored them by 9, 69-60 on the floor. They Also outrebounded them 38-31 and crushed them 13-4 on offensive rebounds. They had more assists 23-20, equal amount of blocks 2-2, they lost the steals battle 11-6 and Turnovers 16-12. Had more 3pts 13-4 AND shot a better percentage from 3pt land 35%-30%. But that's neither here nor there, they outscored them on the floor so that's all that matter. This game was about as close to equal as well...know where it wasn't? Foul shots 28-9. This game Id say they got hosed as well by the refs.

Look its clear you just want to bury your head in the sand and not matter what stats look totally out of the ordinary of ANY game, ANYwhere in the US you just going to fall back on "they lost". I get it, its much easier than really coming to terms that there IS a human element in this game and sometimes that human element literally affects outcomes of games. I get it.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

OH... I didn't realize you wanted both. I was just talking PC because that was the most recent. I can do Xavier as well. Try this on for size...UConn ALSO outscored them by 9, 69-60 on the floor. They Also outrebounded them 38-31 and crushed them 13-4 on offensive rebounds. They had more assists 23-20, equal amount of blocks 2-2, they lost the steals battle 11-6 and Turnovers 16-12. Had more 3pts 13-4 AND shot a better percentage from 3pt land 35%-30%. But that's neither here nor there, they outscored them on the floor so that's all that matter. This game was about as close to equal as well...know where it wasn't? Foul shots 28-9. This game Id say they got hosed as well by the refs.

Look its clear you just want to bury your head in the sand and not matter what stats look totally out of the ordinary of ANY game, ANYwhere in the US you just going to fall back on "they lost". I get it, its much easier than really coming to terms that there IS a human element in this game and sometimes that human element literally affects outcomes of games. I get it.

I guess we’ll only be happy if we get more free throws than the opponent. Anything less is a hose job by the refs. Got it.

Xavier took 10 free throws in the final 2:30 of the game. Hurley gifted them 2, after a foul was called which resulted in 2. That means 6 more free throws were given because we sort of HAD to foul down the stretch to stop the clock.

Since you like stats, try to find one on drives per game for us and the opposition. I’m sure we rather frequently have significantly less.

 

[jayp123669]

I DO love stats because they tell a story and in this case the stats don't match the story which is why I call BS. I can promise you, Im not an anti ref type guy or conspiracy guy. I have family members involved in officiating. The the reality is that fouls are subjective, meaning they can be called on literally every play if they wanted. Just like the NFL there can be calls on every play. That's the human element and yes they DO hold grudges and do dislike coaches and DO sometimes have it out for coaches they hate and utilize there buddies to go against staffs that has wronged them, etc etc.... Its like anywhere else in the world with relationships. Some are good, others may not be but make no mistake it affects outcomes and play. Not all the time but in this case without question IMO and its not even being hidden, its in plain site if your willing to look.

I'm not saying UConn needs more FT's, I'm saying have it be somewhat close! Not 15 and 20 FT disparities. That's insane and frankly unfair. UConn could have shot 100% in both games from the line and still lost while outscoring BOTH opponents on the floor. Think about that. That means these refs made DAMN sure there was no avenue for UConn to win this game unless they just went absolute ham from 3pt land and kept draining 3's at a rate that's not sustainable.

Drives are somewhat overrated, they don't always cause fouls but I agree they could drive more. The issue is not the style, refs just need to call more fouls and call it fair. OK lets say they drive more, if nobody is calling it and just letting it play on, were in the same boat. Plays in the paint create fouls and foul shots too but last I looked no matter how many touches Sonogo and Clingan have past 2 games, I don't see them going to the line. This is point Im trying to make...everyone has a "theory" about changing up the style of play but if refs aren't calling it, it don't matter. Which is why I hang ALL of this on the refs ability to be impartial. Its just that simple. I wish it wasnt, but it is what it is as they say.

 

[Billy Jack]

Agreed Logic isn't strong with some on this board. People point to certain game and say "see you can win with big foul discrepancies" the reality is YOU CAN. But take a look -either you have to shoot the absolute lights out 50%+ each game which what team can do THAT every game? Not many....and or the OTHER team just has to shoot so poorly (Butler) for you to overcome it.

The issue I see with specifically the last 2 games is that when ALL else is EQUAL, UConn has to overcome the refs bias to win. THAT right there IS the issue. I would be fine if PC smoked us and shot insane from the field, they didn't. I would be also fine if Xavier did the same, they also didn't. This is where the problem lies. Both games played close to even were decided on the foul line with ONE team getting decidedly preferential treatment. Its super clear.

Think about this....Even IF UConn shot a perfect 100% from the line against PC they would have still lost. That's a problem people. Both teams shot 36%, PC made 3 more 3pt shots. UConn outscored them on the floor and even if they shot 100% from the foul line they still would lose. That's nuts and quite frankly should not even be able to happen in ANY CBB game anywhere.

Okay, let’s use logic.

1. Let’s assume that both teams have the same number of fouls called on them.

2. Let’s assume that we get 6 more shots because we got 6 more offensive rebounds and the number of turnovers was equal.

Under that scenario, Providence doesn’t get all those FTs, but they do get more FG attempts because those foul shots replaced field goal attempts. So, instead of getting 14 more field goal attempts, we get 6 more. That means Providence gets 8 more field goal attempts. Shooting at .367 from the floor and .444 from 3, those 8 shots would yield 7, maybe 8 points. We outscored them by 7 from the floor, so if they had those extra 8 shots, that would have wiped out our scoring advantage from the floor because of their superior 3 point shooting.

Then assuming that they get the same 19 FTs that we did due to the same number of fouls being called, at .829 from the line, they convert those 19 FTs into 16 points instead of the 19 points that we scored from the line.

So, just following logic, Providence still wins the game by 6-7 points. It would have been closer, but they still win. The refs’ foul calls did not cost us the game.

 

[Squeeze]

I guess we’ll only be happy if we get more free throws than the opponent. Anything less is a hose job by the refs. Got it.

Xavier took 10 free throws in the final 2:30 of the game. Hurley gifted them 2, after a foul was called which resulted in 2. That means 6 more free throws were given because we sort of HAD to foul down the stretch to stop the clock.

Since you like stats, try to find one on drives per game for us and the opposition. I’m sure we rather frequently have significantly less.

Oh come on.

Watching both games, it's obvious the refs made terrible, one-sided calls, which is admittedly subjective. jayp comes with the objective stats to back it up. Combine the subjective and the objective, and yes, it's clear that it's a hose job by the refs.

 

[Billy Jack]

I DO love stats because they tell a story and in this case the stats don't match the story which is why I call BS. I can promise you, Im not an anti ref type guy or conspiracy guy. I have family members involved in officiating. The the reality is that fouls are subjective, meaning they can be called on literally every play if they wanted. Just like the NFL there can be calls on every play. That's the human element and yes they DO hold grudges and do dislike coaches and DO sometimes have it out for coaches they hate and utilize there buddies to go against staffs that has wronged them, etc etc.... Its like anywhere else in the world with relationships. Some are good, others may not be but make no mistake it affects outcomes and play. Not all the time but in this case without question IMO and its not even being hidden, its in plain site if your willing to look.

I'm not saying UConn needs more FT's, I'm saying have it be somewhat close! Not 15 and 20 FT disparities. That's insane and frankly unfair. UConn could have shot 100% in both games from the line and still lost while outscoring BOTH opponents on the floor. Think about that.

Okay, so refs hold grudges and dislike coaches. I wonder why that is . . .? Anything anyone associated with the team can do about that?

I’ve already explained in my previous post why we outscored them from the floor. You can’t simply take away their FTs but still keep the test of their scoring the same and assume that we will still have a 14 shot advantage when we only had 6 more more offensive rebounds and no advantage on turnovers.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

Oh come on.

Watching both games, it's obvious the refs made terrible, one-sided calls, which is admittedly subjective. jayp comes with the objective stats to back it up. Combine the subjective and the objective, and yes, it's clear that it's a hose job by the refs.

Do you genuinely think we would have won either of those games if a few calls went
our way?

 

[Billy Jack]

UConn was terrible shooting, but the foul disparity makes no sense to me looking at box score.

How does UConn give up 35 foul shots while PC has only 18 points in the paint and took only 49 shots. PC also shot only 32% from 2-point range.

Not saying refs were wrong in their calls, but the game was played at same physicality level, the rebounding was even, the 3-point shots were even.

Everything in this game was even except foul shots, 16 more free throws and held a +19 advantage from line.

This one was weird.

Everything was not even. Providence shot 83% from the line and 44% from 3. We shot 53% from the line and 23% from 3. You don’t win games with numbers like that even if there was no disparity in fouls.

 

[HuskyHawk]

UConn was terrible shooting, but the foul disparity makes no sense to me looking at box score.

How does UConn give up 35 foul shots while PC has only 18 points in the paint and took only 49 shots. PC also shot only 32% from 2-point range.

Not saying refs were wrong in their calls, but the game was played at same physicality level, the rebounding was even, the 3-point shots were even.

Everything in this game was even except foul shots, 16 more free throws and held a +19 advantage from line.

This one was weird.

Because, while the point August is making is usually valid, it wasn’t in this game. This was just payback. All those loose balls PC got? That happened after they hit the double bonus 6 minutes into the 2nd half, not before. UConn owned the rebounding in the first half. UConn was attacking the rim, even more than PC was until late in the game whem we hoisted 3s to come back. This was absurd officiating. Chalking it up to “play harder” is nonsense. That was the answer for Xavier perhaps, not PC.

 

[ThetaZoo]

We’ve been outscored 52-14 from the FT line the last 2 games.

It’s fine to talk about the flaws of the team, but the reality is WILDLY lopsided officiating and free throws are the only reason we have 2 Ls right now.

It’s impossible to get into a flow/rhythm with this kind of disparity.

You legitimately have to play perfect to overcome that.

It's wildly lopsided fouling by UConn. Watch the replays.

 

[Conndog]

Then someone needs to teach them to draw contact, because they rarely do.

Clingan plays less than Sanogo but draws more contact than him

 

[jayp123669]

Everything was not even. Providence shot 83% from the line and 44% from 3. We shot 53% from the line and 23% from 3. You don’t win games with numbers like that even if there was no disparity in fouls.

I think you missed the part where I said they outscored them 51-44. Percentage means nothing when that happens. Thats the score WITH percentages factored in. Also you may have missed the part where I ALSO said even if they shot 100% FT they went 10-19, they would still lose. They lost by 12. If they shot 19-19 that's 9 extra points and STILL lose by 3 with 100% FT percentage. That's how insanely this was officiated. That a team could go literally 36% (both teams did) have almost the same amount of 3 pt shots made (5 and 8) and shoot 100% from the line and STILL lose.

Volume matters, volume at FT attempts matters BIG Time. Its why every coach in the country works the refs. They know this. Its why Hurley essentially alluded to it in his presser at Xavier. He shut his mouth for PC because he already knows there sticking it to him. So yes the disparity matters.

 

[jdb50]

UConn guards 5-30. Those players keep that up we will be 2 games over .500 in the Big East regular season. There were some real clankers in those 25 misses.

 

[UofCT]

It's wildly lopsided fouling by UConn. Watch the replays.

This is a terrible take.

 

[Billy Jack]

OH... I didn't realize you wanted both. I was just talking PC because that was the most recent. I can do Xavier as well. Try this on for size...UConn ALSO outscored them by 9, 69-60 on the floor. They Also outrebounded them 38-31 and crushed them 13-4 on offensive rebounds. They had more assists 23-20, equal amount of blocks 2-2, they lost the steals battle 11-6 and Turnovers 16-12. Had more 3pts 13-4 AND shot a better percentage from 3pt land 35%-30%. But that's neither here nor there, they outscored them on the floor so that's all that matter. This game was about as close to equal as well...know where it wasn't? Foul shots 28-9. This game Id say they got hosed as well by the refs.

Look its clear you just want to bury your head in the sand and not matter what stats look totally out of the ordinary of ANY game, ANYwhere in the US you just going to fall back on "they lost". I get it, its much easier than really coming to terms that there IS a human element in this game and sometimes that human element literally affects outcomes of games. I get it.

You’re not making any sense. You can’t just say that UConn outscored them from the floor but the refs hosed us by giving X foul shots as though those are simply bonus points. It doesn’t work that way.

The reason we outscored them from the floor is because X was taking free throws INSTEAD OF field goal attempts. If the refs did not call those fouls, X would have been taking shots from the floor instead. So, let’s look at your preferred scenario where the 2 teams get the same number of free throws.

We had 9 FTs and converted those into 4 points. If X had also had only 9 FTs, since they were converting FTs at an 82% rate, they would have had 7.4 points, giving them a 3 point advantage from the line.

We had 7 more offensive rebounds but 4 more turnovers for a net of +3 in possessions instead of getting 15 more shot attempts. So, now we have X getting 12 more shit attempts instead of all those extra FTs. Shooting 54% from the floor, 31% from 3, and taking 25% of their shots from 3, X could be expected to score 13 points off those 12 field goal attempts.

So while we outscored X from the floor by 9 when they were taking all those FTs, if they had been shooting FGs INSTEAD OF FTs, they woukd have outscored us by 4 from the floor with those 13 extra points and would still have had a +3 advantage on FTs. The result is that X still wins the game by 7?

Why? Because X outshot us 54% to 42% from the floor and 82% to 44% from the line. Your analysis simply ignores all that. We outrebounded them, but they shit better and forced more turnovers. The net advantage was to them with or without favorable foul calls.

 

[Billy Jack]

Glad you cherry picked 2 teams that I agree are average looking at this point. Both were essentially on the road though so that does change things and to play games consecutive is difficult especially early season. They still beat a Top 15 Bama team, a Top 25 ISU team and a very solid looking OK St. team. All 5 teams will most likely end up in the top 60 of America. So it wasn't like it was a cream puff slate and they manhandled those teams is the point I think hes making and you missed.

Look, they had a great start to the season and deserve to be still ranked in the top 5 based on their accomplishments. No one’s disputing that.

You’re the one who brought those games up as though they somehow prove that they aren’t capable of having a bad night against a good team, somehow inferring that those games prove that the refs must have stolen thise games from us.

Get over it. We got beat. We can lose a couple of games on the road just like anyone else. All the top teams have done the same.

 

[gtcam]

I think you missed the part where I said they outscored them 51-44. Percentage means nothing when that happens. Thats the score WITH percentages factored in. Also you may have missed the part where I ALSO said even if they shot 100% FT they went 10-19, they would still lose. They lost by 12. If they shot 19-19 that's 9 extra points and STILL lose by 3 with 100% FT percentage. That's how insanely this was officiated. That a team could go literally 36% (both teams did) have almost the same amount of 3 pt shots made (5 and 8) and shoot 100% from the line and STILL lose.

Volume matters, volume at FT attempts matters BIG Time. Its why every coach in the country works the refs. They know this. Its why Hurley essentially alluded to it in his presser at Xavier. He shut his mouth for PC because he already knows there sticking it to him. So yes the disparity matters.

Every coach doesn’t “work” the ref the way Hurley does. He is downright disrespectful and vulgar. I’ve sat 8 rows behind the bench for 5 yrs with Dan Hurley as HC and many with HCKO and HCJC. I heard much more than you have. HCJC was happy to throw f bombs but none of them were used as a descriptive name thrown at a ref.
Did he publicly say that he was quiet because he knew the refs were out for him. Or is that you putting words in his mouth?
As far as the FT discrepancy is concerned, I urge you to look at the thread that McLovin did on crunching numbers of fouls drawn in NBE play in the paint. Tell me how many fouls were drawn by Xavier and PC players vs those by UConn players. PC and Xavier each have 4 in the top 30 and UConn has 1. If I remember correctly Creighton has at least 3 in the top 30. Remember this includes games involving all NBE teams not just those vs UConn. Some teams know how to draw fouls and defend without fouling. Some can’t do either well. Guess where UConn lands.? It can be taught and when it is perhaps the disparity will abate.