Not a lot of rumors flying lately

[UPitt]

It has everything to do with administration. When you have a chancellorship of a system, the universities below take orders from the one. This is entirely different from, say, PSU where the President of Penn State UP runs all the other campuses. Same way in Illinois.

I don't know enough about the Florida set-up to comment on it.

All I know for a fact is that SUNY duplicated the Cal-system in the 1960s, and--believe it or not--there are still people active and around from that era (the founding of the SUNY system) who know the institutional history like the back of their hands. The reputation of these universities were made by throwing huge gobs of money at the most talented faculty around. And they grabbed those people from the Ivies and the Cals.

Here's the definition of flagship according to The College Board :

“Flagship institutions are the best-known institutions in the state, were generally the first to be established, and are frequently the largest and most selective, as well as the most research-intensive public universities.”

Again - administration is a secondary factor and has nothing to do with the Flagship designation.

Per our favoraite source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Flagship_universities_in_the_United_States

Interestingly, PSU is the only university on that list that is not a State University.

Upstarter, I understand the comparison you made above, but it is tough to compare PSU to other state university systems, because PSU is only state affiliated the same way Pitt is. Aside from PSU and Pitt, I do not know if any other university systems exist that have the same identity as these two (ie. State affiliated only, multiple branch campus, President or Chancellor of Main Campus controls branch campus). The Pennsylvania State System of Higher Education consists of 14 smaller universities and I can not speak for the administration structure of it.

We are talking about the importance of "Flagship Universities" with respect to conference realignment because when Jim Delany discusses B1G expansion he uses terms such as "Flagship University" and "Large Land Grant University". I think Jim Delany used the terms "Flagship University" and "Large Land Grant University" more as a metaphor than as a requirement. Per media reports, the B1G has considered GT and would consider VT and NC State if the acedemics were stronger. Schools like GT, VT, and NC State and large popular schools that are similar to Flagship Universities and clearly more valuable in realignment than any of the SUNY schools that you consider to be the flagship (Buffalo or Stony Brook). They are also more valuable than many Flagship Universities from smaller states.

At the end of the day, conference realignment is not going to be influenced by the technical identity of a university whether it be "Public, Private, or State Affiliated" or whether it be "Flagship, Land Grant, System, or Independent". Conferences will expand to include the universitities, public or private, that bring the most value to their individual conference whether it be monetary, education, location, etc.

 

[UPitt]

Both CAL and UCLA are excellent schools. As a Californian, I would consider both the flagships of the California if there is such a thing. CA is big enough to have two flagship universities.

Some states do have more than one as Texas and Texas A&M are both considered "Flagship". I would have thought that UCLA and Cal, which are fairly equal, would have both been consider flagship, but it seems that only Cal is considered flagship. Flagship is just a term.

 

[upstater]

Per our favoraite source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Flagship_universities_in_the_United_States

Interestingly, PSU is the only university on that list that is not a State University.

Upstarter, I understand the comparison you made above, but it is tough to compare PSU to other state university systems, because PSU is only state affiliated the same way Pitt is. Aside from PSU and Pitt, I do not know if any other university systems exist that have the same identity as these two (ie. State affiliated only, multiple branch campus, President or Chancellor of Main Campus controls branch campus). The Pennsylvania State System of Higher Education consists of 14 smaller universities and I can not speak for the administration structure of it.

We are talking about the importance of "Flagship Universities" with respect to conference realignment because when Jim Delany discusses B1G expansion he uses terms such as "Flagship University" and "Large Land Grant University". I think Jim Delany used the terms "Flagship University" and "Large Land Grant University" more as a metaphor than as a requirement. Per media reports, the B1G has considered GT and would consider VT and NC State if the acedemics were stronger. Schools like GT, VT, and NC State and large popular schools that are similar to Flagship Universities and clearly more valuable in realignment than any of the SUNY schools that you consider to be the flagship (Buffalo or Stony Brook). They are also more valuable than many Flagship Universities from smaller states.

At the end of the day, conference realignment is not going to be influenced by the technical identity of a university whether it be "Public, Private, or State Affiliated" or whether it be "Flagship, Land Grant, System, or Independent". Conferences will expand to include the universitities, public or private, that bring the most value to their individual conference whether it be monetary, education, location, etc.

I agree with this, but I didn't say half the stuff you quoted me as saying. I don't consider the SUNYs or the Cals are flagship. I only pointed out PSU to show there are differences in administration everywhere. And, yes, there are states with two competing systems within the state. Note: I never recommended Buffalo as a B1G member--quite the opposite--so I'm not sure why you responded in that way.

 

[UPitt]

I agree with this, but I didn't say half the stuff you quoted me as saying. I don't consider the SUNYs or the Cals are flagship. I only pointed out PSU to show there are differences in administration everywhere. And, yes, there are states with two competing systems within the state. Note: I never recommended Buffalo as a B1G member--quite the opposite--so I'm not sure why you responded in that way.

I was only quoting you with respect to PSU to provide additional information to those who are not as familiar with the State and State Affiliated systems in PA. You and I are both familiar with the structure in PA, but I have heard many people refer to PSU as the state system. The rest of my post was my take on the past few pages of discussion with respect to flagship universities. I used SUNY (Buffalo or Stony Brook) as an example of a flagship university that is not as valuable as non-flagship GT because residents of CT will better identify with SUNY than any other example. Sorry for any confusion.

 

[woomba]

I agree with this, but I didn't say half the stuff you quoted me as saying. I don't consider the SUNYs or the Cals are flagship. I only pointed out PSU to show there are differences in administration everywhere. And, yes, there are states with two competing systems within the state. Note: I never recommended Buffalo as a B1G member--quite the opposite--so I'm not sure why you responded in that way.

Ok - our differences in opinion on the UC system aside and what constitutes a flagship aside, we are in agreement that none of the SUNYs are flagships (at least, not currently).

 

[upstater]

Ok - our differences in opinion on the UC system aside and what constitutes a flagship aside, we are in agreement that none of the SUNYs are flagships (at least, not currently).

Well, yes, they're not. I don't think I ever said that. I just noted that the carbon copy was a duplicate of Cal's. So, while the set-up may look weird to many, it's not without precedent.

 

[B1GALUM]

Hopefully I can bring this discussion to a close. I responded to the following post with a way too optimistic view of UB being a potential candidate for the B1G. It was my attempt, one I have made before, to "look outside the box" for B1G candidates given the challenge for UConn to find a partner to accompany to the B1G. Regardless, SUNY does not have a flagship university or more importantly a university attractive enough from an athletic perspective to garner an invitation to the B1G.

View attachment 3078

Buffalo rebranding as "New York's State University" and is changing their uniforms and basketball court logos etc.

http://www.ubbullrun.com/2013/6/6/4401282/new-york-state-bulls-branding

 

[UPitt]

Ok - our differences in opinion on the UC system aside and what constitutes a flagship aside, we are in agreement that none of the SUNYs are flagships (at least, not currently).

I agree none of the SUNYs are true flagships. I liken the SUNY system to the PaSSHE of PA, but stronger than PA. Where NY and PA differ is that the state of PA has piggy backed on PSU (Pitt to a lesser extent) and sold them as Public schools to residents when in fact they are merely state affiliated and barely state funded. NY has worked to develop the SUNY system and a few years ago, New York had proposed to make Buffalo the flagship university of the state and make Stony Brook a second flagship for the opposite side of the state. See the education section:

http://worldcat.org/arcviewer/1/AO#/2008/03/17/0000083244/viewer/file706.html

Made wisely, these investments in higher education will also revitalize cities. We will move forward on the University of Buffalo’s “2020” expansion as a centerpiece of our strategy to reinvigorate the economy of Western New York. When completed, the University’s total student population will grow from 29,000 to almost 41,000. Over 7,000 students, faculty and staff will work and study on a new downtown campus for medicine and health sciences. UB will become an economic engine for Buffalo, and a flagship institution for a world class public university system.

We will create a flagship at the other end our state, as well. We will help bring together the University at Stony Brook, and the world renowned Brookhaven and Cold Spring Harbor laboratories. The result will be a peerless cross-disciplinary research engine in the areas of cancer, neurobiology, plant genetics and bioinformatics. The economic benefit for Long Island will be tremendous. The chance for New York to lead the world will be unparalleled.

 

[upstater]

I agree none of the SUNYs are true flagships. I liken the SUNY system to the PaSSHE of PA, but stronger than PA. Where NY and PA differ is that the state of PA has piggy backed on PSU (Pitt to a lesser extent) and sold them as Public schools to residents when in fact they are merely state affiliated and barely state funded. NY has worked to develop the SUNY system and a few years ago, New York had proposed to make Buffalo the flagship university of the state and make Stony Brook a second flagship for the opposite side of the state. See the education section:

http://worldcat.org/arcviewer/1/AO#/2008/03/17/0000083244/viewer/file706.html

Made wisely, these investments in higher education will also revitalize cities. We will move forward on the University of Buffalo’s “2020” expansion as a centerpiece of our strategy to reinvigorate the economy of Western New York. When completed, the University’s total student population will grow from 29,000 to almost 41,000. Over 7,000 students, faculty and staff will work and study on a new downtown campus for medicine and health sciences. UB will become an economic engine for Buffalo, and a flagship institution for a world class public university system.

We will create a flagship at the other end our state, as well. We will help bring together the University at Stony Brook, and the world renowned Brookhaven and Cold Spring Harbor laboratories. The result will be a peerless cross-disciplinary research engine in the areas of cancer, neurobiology, plant genetics and bioinformatics. The economic benefit for Long Island will be tremendous. The chance for New York to lead the world will be unparalleled.

I'm an employee of SUNY. You have to put all of this into context, including what Spitzer is saying. It doesn't make any sense until you establish a timeline. Mine will be quick.

1. In the 1960s, money was plowed into U. Buffalo to make it the most well-funded and well regarded of the schools. It worked for a time.

2. Because of a powerful state sen. from Binghamton, that school almost immediately (by the mid 70s) began receiving as much much support and was built into an AAU level school. Once he left public office, Binghamton no longer had that sway.

3. In the 1990s, the state plowed billions into U. Albany to create a high-tech chip manufacturing sector. It worked. During this period, during the entire decade, the state did not give even $100 million to the western side of the state for investment.

4. The politicians in WNY demanded an investment because more tax dollars collected in WNY went outside the region than came into the region. So the state developed a big plan to invest in WNY.

5. UB2020 began as a plan created by UB together with the board of trustees. To the extent that the plan utilizes some of the money intended for the region around Buffalo and the city, UB hopes to make use of those investments (by securing financing for biotech downtown). The rest of the funds for UB2020--as at Uconn--come from increasing tuition. UB was at $4,300 until 2 years ago. It went to $4,900 last year, and will increase incrementally over the next few years until it reaches $7k. That money is going into new hires and new students. But it's piggybacking on the grand plan.

6. When Spitzer references another flagship downstate, that was only done to secure political support. In reality, absolutely nothing has changed. It's all just political talk. It means nothing. The only thing that changed is that the Chancellor secured enough political support to unilaterally allow the big research centers to increase tuition and charge more in fees.

 

[buggsy]

CAL and Ucla are "equivalent" but CAL is absolutely the flagship.
http://www.berkeley.edu/about/hist/foundations.shtml[/quote]

Cal is definitely the flagship university of California. While UCLA may be equal, or at least perceive itself to be the equal of Cal, the rest of the Cal system recognizes Berkeley as the original, the premier in the group, and the state's flagship.

Every state has ONE flagship university. Just one. The UNC system has a chancellor as well...are you going to argue that Chapel Hill is NOT the flagship university of the state of North Carolina, because they have a chancellor?

 

[upstater]

You've confused things badly. The Chancellor for UNC runs Chapel Hill and the other schools under Chapel Hill. It's like PSU.

Here, look at this link: http://www.unc.edu/chan/

The Cal. system is different. The main head is the President of the whole university system. In Cal. and NY, the Chancellor/President is a separate entity charged with running the University of California or State U. of New York respectively.

Here take a look: http://www.ucop.edu/president/

http://www.suny.edu/chancellor/

Every state has ONE flagship university. Just one.

No.

 

[UPitt]

Texas has 4 flagships, but maybe thats because everything's bigger in Texas. Although I agree that UT and A&M are both flagships, but I think Texas considering North Texas and Houston as flagship may be a stretch.

 

[hthusky74]

It's not that simple. Stony Brook is probably the best candidate to make the leap - but still difficult due to the semi-dysfunctional nature of the SUNY system. They certainly aren't going to give an official flagship designation anytime soon and I'm sure the other 3 university centers (Albany, Binghamton, Buffalo) will raise high-hell if the rebranding insinuated a flagship designation.

The current plan is to give each of the universities some level of autonomy (the reason why most SUNYs have crap endowments is because there used to be a ban on raising funding - Buffalo has a fair amount because it used to be a pretty powerful private school in the early 1900s back when Buffalo was bustling) and remove the "SUNY" moniker from the names to improve the branding - which is why you don't hear SUNY-Stony Brook or SUNY-Buffalo that often nowadays.

The New York Yankees will move to Havana before Buffalo or Stony Brook get in the B1G.

 

[junglehusky]

Off-topic tangent... but shouldn't PSU be called PCU? Pennsylvania's official name is the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, not State. Penn Comm instead of Penn State. The other commonwealths are Kentucky, Mass and Virginia (hence VCU).

 

[UConnNick]

...because SUNY was designed after the California system which predates it by 15 years. That's when the other California schools came on board. Every Cal school calls itself U. Cal. because it is U. Cal. The schools are known as Cal-SD, Cal-Davis, Cal-Irvine, Cal-SB, etc. Only UCLA changes up. I know Cal-Berkeley calls itself the flagship, but U. Cal. is run by a Chancellor who is the most powerful figure in the system. He/she makes the decisions over the Cal-Berkeley Prez. and has authority over him. This is not all that common, and NY is one of the states that patterned its system exactly after Cal. The two systems are structurally exactly alike. The comparison is explicit in the very reorganization of SUNY in the 1960s.

The Cal schools may all be administered under the same umbrella, but that means nothing regarding their relative stature academically or athletically when compared with each other. There's a reason why there's a "University of California" and a "University of California - Los Angeles" and then a bunch of Cal State U's - ___________. Berkeley is considered the flagship university. One other distinction which is important to note is that none of the Cal schools with "State" in their names are ever going to be invited to be member(s) of the PAC 12 because Cal and UCLA consider those schools second tier in every way imaginable, and so does the rest of the PAC 12. Ask the fans of San Diego State if they're patiently waiting by the phone for a PAC 12 invite. They wouldn't have danced with the Big East if they thought there was any possibility, however remote, that the PAC 12 would come calling. It's never going to happen because they're second tier in every way, as far as the PAC 12 is concerned.

Perhaps Bobby Knight said it best when he gave one Jim Calhoun some advice about whether or not he should take the job at UCONN after it was offered. Knight told Calhoun that you should always take the job at the University of ______________, meaning THE flagship university of whichever state you're in. He told him not to take a job at any school with a hyphen or the word "State" in its name. You go to Oklahoma, not Oklahoma State. LSU and UCLA would be the only exceptions I can think of, and in Louisiana's case, all the rest of the so-called state U's have a hyphen in their names, so the rule still applies as to those schools. Every state has one flagship. Even Texas A&M cannot claim any dual flagship status. UT gets 2/3 of the money from the Texas Permanent University School Fund. A&M gets 1/3. Who's No. 1?

Of course, Knight violated his own rule by accepting the head coaching position at Texas Tech (see paragraph above, which explains why he violated his own rule).

 

[CL82]

No, UConn is doing the exact opposite, which is building up Storrs.

NY has 20 million people. Divide that by 4 universities and you have 5 million people per research university.

Connecticut has 3.5 million people per research university.

Similar in numbers, but the set-up is different. Put it this way--the President of UB doesn't even have the right to set his own tuition rate, as that is decided by SUNY-Central and Chancellor Zimpher. Similar to what goes on in U. Cal. But in Conn., Herbst just unilaterally raised tuition.

Yes they are, but I thought they were also investing in drawing top research talent to the university. Did I get that wrong?

 

[upstater]

The Cal schools may all be administered under the same umbrella, but that means nothing regarding their relative stature academically or athletically when compared with each other. There's a reason why there's a "University of California" and a "University of California - Los Angeles" and then a bunch of Cal State U's - ___________. Berkeley is considered the flagship university. One other distinction which is important to note is that none of the Cal schools with "State" in their names are ever going to be invited to be member(s) of the PAC 12 because Cal and UCLA consider those schools second tier in every way imaginable, and so does the rest of the PAC 12. Ask the fans of San Diego State if they're patiently waiting by the phone for a PAC 12 invite. They wouldn't have danced with the Big East if they thought there was any possibility, however remote, that the PAC 12 would come calling. It's never going to happen because they're second tier in every way, as far as the PAC 12 is concerned.

Perhaps Bobby Knight said it best when he gave one Jim Calhoun some advice about whether or not he should take the job at UCONN after it was offered. Knight told Calhoun that you should always take the job at the University of ______________, meaning THE flagship university of whichever state you're in. He told him not to take a job at any school with a hyphen or the word "State" in its name. You go to Oklahoma, not Oklahoma State. LSU and UCLA would be the only exceptions I can think of, and in Louisiana's case, all the rest of the so-called state U's have a hyphen in their names, so the rule still applies as to those schools. Every state has one flagship. Even Texas A&M cannot claim any dual flagship status. UT gets 2/3 of the money from the Texas Permanent University School Fund. A&M gets 1/3. Who's No. 1?

Of course, Knight violated his own rule by accepting the head coaching position at Texas Tech (see paragraph above, which explains why he violated his own rule).

University of California at Berkeley. That's why people call it Cal-Berkeley.

Cal. State is an entirely different system that has nothing to do with U. California system. It's apples and oranges.

U. Cal. San Diego, Santa Barbara, Irvine, Davis, Santa Cruz, etc.

Those schools make up the University of California.

This whole conversation started when someone said the SUNY system is unlike any other because it doesn't have a flagship.

I pointed out that the charter for the SUNY system was a carbon copy of the University of California system except with fewer universities.

 

[upstater]

Yes they are, but I thought they were also investing in drawing top research talent to the university. Did I get that wrong?

Who? UConn? Yes, through the tuition raise.

 

[whaler11]

University of California at Berkeley. That's why people call it Cal-Berkeley.

Cal. State is an entirely different system that has nothing to do with U. California system. It's apples and oranges.

U. Cal. San Diego, Santa Barbara, Irvine, Davis, Santa Cruz, etc.

Those schools make up the University of California.

This whole conversation started when someone said the SUNY system is unlike any other because it doesn't have a flagship.

I pointed out that the charter for the SUNY system was a carbon copy of the University of California system except with fewer universities.

This argument is ridiculous.

Everyone calls Cal-Berkeley just Cal or California.

Ask anyone who follows sports who Stanford's rival is and the answer will be Cal.
Maybe to academics UCLA or UC-San Diego creates a debate. The rest of the world thinks Cal is the flagship.

 

[whaler11]

http://www.ucsdtritons.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=5800&ATCLID=207542060

Here is a story about UCSD beating something called Cal State Monterey Bay.

UCSD lost a baseball game to Grand Canyon this year. When Eastern Connecticut took a borderline Little East championship baseball team to UCSD they beat them.

Do you really want to argue that a flagship school in the California university system can't beat a baseball team from Willimantic?

 

[upstater]

This argument is ridiculous.

Everyone calls Cal-Berkeley just Cal or California.

Ask anyone who follows sports who Stanford's rival is and the answer will be Cal.
Maybe to academics UCLA or UC-San Diego creates a debate. The rest of the world thinks Cal is the flagship.

Read the links above. I linked to the sites of all the universities in question. The organization is crystal clear. The world doesn't revolve around sports. Most people call the place plain old Berkeley. That's been its name forever.

Read: http://www.dailycal.org/2013/06/09/...prestigious-obie-award-for-new-american-play/

Now read: http://www.dailycal.org/2013/06/09/uc-implements-unconditional-salary-increase/

This is the very school you're talking about here. This is how they refer to themselves.

Clearly, U. Cal refers to the U Cal system.

How much more evident can it be?

 

[upstater]

http://www.ucsdtritons.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=5800&ATCLID=207542060

Here is a story about UCSD beating something called Cal State Monterey Bay.

UCSD lost a baseball game to Grand Canyon this year. When Eastern Connecticut took a borderline Little East championship baseball team to UCSD they beat them.

Do you really want to argue that a flagship school in the California university system can't beat a baseball team from Willimantic?

??? What the heck is this post about?

 

[whaler11]

??? What the heck is this post about?

The post is about your crazy argument against the whole world besides random academics thinks Cal is the flagship. UCSD is a more ridiculous argument than UCLA. Flagship schools don't play sports with Grand Canyon. I imagine you understand what Grand Canyon is.

 

[upstater]

The post is about your crazy argument against the whole world besides random academics thinks Cal is the flagship. UCSD is a more ridiculous argument than UCLA. Flagship schools don't play sports with Grand Canyon. I imagine you understand what Grand Canyon is.

That is one of the top 10 nuttiest comments I have ever read on this board.

Flagships don't play sports against small schools. Wow. You'll find that flagships are land grant schools. Care to list some of those to see who they play? I guarantee you there are several that don't participate in D1. Second, I never said UCSD is a flagship. Everyone here has understood that except for you.

I just gave you two additional links to back me up. What do you have? Nothing.

 

[buggsy]

You've confused things badly. The Chancellor for UNC runs Chapel Hill and the other schools under Chapel Hill. It's like PSU.

Here, look at this link: http://www.unc.edu/chan/

The Cal. system is different. The main head is the President of the whole university system. In Cal. and NY, the Chancellor/President is a separate entity charged with running the University of California or State U. of New York respectively.

Here take a look: http://www.ucop.edu/president/

http://www.suny.edu/chancellor/



No.

I'm not the one that is confused. Sadly, considering you're in education...it is you

Just as UNC Chapel Hill has its own Chancellor...as do the other 16 universities that make up the UNC system, CAL Berkeley has its own chancellor (Nicholas B. Dirks) just as UCLA has it's own chancellor (Gene Block) and UC San Diego (Pradeep Khosla) and the other UC schools as well. It matters not that a president oversees all these different schools.

Where you miss the point is...all the schools can have their own individual leader...and all can answer to a single leadership that oversees all the different schools, AND YET ONE INDIVIDUAL SCHOOL CAN STILL BE RECOGNIZED AS THE FLAGSHIP UNIVERSITY OF THE ENTIRE SYSTEM.

That is what UC Berkeley is.

Just like only Chapel Hill lays claim to being the flagship university of North Carolina, Cal is the only school that lays claim in California.

In the system's own literature, only one of the UC schools is recognized within the UC system as the flagship university in
California...and that is Cal Berkeley.

http://www.berkeley.edu/about/hist/

You will find multiple examples within Berkeley's literature where they are referenced as the flagship university of the state of California. You will not find a single reference in which UCLA or UCSB or UC San Diego (or UC Merced or UC Riverside, or UC Davis or any of the other schools) is referenced as the flagship. NOT ONE. Yet Berkeley is regularly called the flagship.

Even outside Berkeley's literature (and do you really think the UC system would allow CAL to publish that they are the flagship university if in fact they are not?) the only school in the UC system that comes up as the flagship university of the state is Cal Berkeley:

http://academicearth.org/universities/berkeley/
http://www.educationunlimited.com/camp_locations/view/7
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/sats/etc/ucb.html
http://www.linkedin.com/company/uc-Berkeley
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=UC Berkeley

Do a google search and you will find literally hundreds of others.

Just give it up already. You are wrong. Flat out wrong.

You are embarrassing yourself by saying Berkeley is NOT the flagship university of the Cal system. They are the only school to be recognized as such,...and no other UC system argues this.

Let it go already and take your medicine.