Not a lot of rumors flying lately

[upstater]

Small point, no one in the history of California has ever referred to a UC campus as "U.Cal" anything. It's UC Berkeley, UC Davis, UCSB, UC Davis, UCSD, etc. U.Cal reference was driving me nuts

Gotcha, I just listed the schools there. It is, however, referred to not only as UC-Berkeley, but Cal-Berkeley, or more often just Berkeley. The only reason to refer to U. Cal would be to refer to the system. When I wrote U. Cal-S.D., I was just shortening California.

 

[hthusky74]

Who? UConn? Yes, through the tuition raise.

Actually through the $2 billion bill just passed by the legislature.

 

[hthusky74]

This argument is ridiculous.

Everyone calls Cal-Berkeley just Cal or California.

Ask anyone who follows sports who Stanford's rival is and the answer will be Cal.
Maybe to academics UCLA or UC-San Diego creates a debate. The rest of the world thinks Cal is the flagship.

Many call it Berkeley. Of course some, and I used to have the t-shirt, call it "Beserkely".

 

[upstater]

Actually through the $2 billion bill just passed by the legislature.

No, I asked for a breakdown of that money, and all the money has been assigned to buildings or public/private partnerships. Herbst is on record as saying the money for the faculty will come from a rise in tuitions. Don't forget that the state cut UConn's budget by $10 million this year. So as operating funds decline, Herbst raises tuition, and uses a portion of the raise to fund the hiring of new faculty. Here's what the state is doing: by giving money for new buildings, this allows Herbst to increase the number of students, which gives the school additional tuition money.

http://articles.courant.com/2011-12...-and-board-university-of-connecticut-trustees

 

[woomba]

How does it contradict me? He's talking about state systems trying to reduce an equalize campuses by putting them in one boat, so he's fighting for a flagship designation. He then points out that in California this didn't happen because the state poured MORE money into Berkeley and buffed up UCLA and San Diego among others, so there was no controversy from Berkeley regarding the Master Plan. He even ends the talk by calling San Diego a flagship. Not sure where you see contradiction other than in his liberal use of the term flagship.

By his definition of the word


Original land-grant/Public University = Berkeley
Original campus of expanded university system = Berkeley

Then be back pedals a bit and says that because UC spent so much money on the other campuses that he feels that UC has multiple "flagships" instead of just one yet also states that Berkeley is the 'jewel' in the UC system.

You keep talking about politics playing in SUNY the designations but want to take this speech given to Texas A&M as verbatim when he's obviously trying to be PC.

 

[buggsy]

By his definition of the word


Original land-grant/Public University = Berkeley
Original campus of expanded university system = Berkeley

Then be back pedals a bit and says that because UC spent so much money on the other campuses that he feels that UC has multiple "flagships" instead of just one yet also states that Berkeley is the 'jewel' in the UC system.

You keep talking about politics playing in SUNY the designations but want to take this speech given to Texas A&M as verbatim when he's obviously trying to be PC.

According to everyone else, but you, Cal is the flagship of the system. Why you are on this crusade to basically tell Berkeley they are wrong (since they call themselves the flagship of the system) and you are right.....is just plain nutty.

But go ahead and keep it up. It's comical.

 

[UConn Dan]

Yo Yo...this board is all wrong. UConn - Stamford is the state flagship.
(sarcasm - pointed at you Frank the Tank)

So any leads on UConn joining a power conference in 2014 that don't come out of WV or Yoda?

 

[upstater]

By his definition of the word


Original land-grant/Public University = Berkeley
Original campus of expanded university system = Berkeley

Then be back pedals a bit and says that because UC spent so much money on the other campuses that he feels that UC has multiple "flagships" instead of just one yet also states that Berkeley is the 'jewel' in the UC system.

You keep talking about politics playing in SUNY the designations but want to take this speech given to Texas A&M as verbatim when he's obviously trying to be PC.

I wrote in my first post on him that I didn't agree with his use of the term flagship to describe UCSD because the system is so diffuse. But inasmuch as it's used to describe Florida St and Texas A&M, you can see how his thinking applies. Texas A&M was designated a flagship a long time after the Morrill Act, and it was done so by the state legislature in recent history. It's a flagship not ony because the state says so, but because the state has devoted lots of money to make it a research university. Most A&Ms were cow colleges. Some still are (Alabama A&M for instance was a land grant ag school, and so was Auburn).

The gist of the entire speech is that state's should continue to fund a very high level of research at flagship campuses, rather than plan for mediocrity, rather than having schools like UCLA and Berkeley drop to a medium along with the Cal. State schools. That's what he saw as the danger. He's looking for differential funding, and that's the whole point of the speech. This is why he even mentions the U. Texas system and its multiple flagships which are distinct from satellites.

Furthermore, someone challenged me to find even one link that backed what I said about Berdahl being warned from using the term flagship. That's what the link was about!

 

[upstater]

According to everyone else, but you, Cal is the flagship of the system. Why you are on this crusade to basically tell Berkeley they are wrong (since they call themselves the flagship of the system) and you are right.....is just plain nutty.

But go ahead and keep it up. It's comical.

You could at least admit you were wrong when you challenged me to find a quote about Berdahl being warned not to call Berkeley the flagship. I gave you the link. Berdahl himself, the head of Berkeley at the time, said it happened. So, you challenged me to find any evidence. I provided it. And here you are going on with the same mistakes.

If I were to challenge someone to back up what they were saying, and they provided me with the evidence, I'd acknowledge it.

 

[buggsy]

You could at least admit you were wrong when you challenged me to find a quote about Berdahl being warned not to call Berkeley the flagship. I gave you the link. Berdahl himself, the head of Berkeley at the time, said it happened. So, you challenged me to find any evidence. I provided it. And here you are going on with the same mistakes.

If I were to challenge someone to back up what they were saying, and they provided me with the evidence, I'd acknowledge it.

Considering the audience he told this to (do you think he would have been so inclusive of A&M as the flagship of the state of Texas if he was delivering the speech in Austin) and considering he was being PC, and that when he mentioned the flagship universities of states, he could have easily included UCLA in there along with Berkeley, like he did for TU and A&M, but he didn't... he only mentioned one school.

So I will admit I was wrong, when you admit that Berkeley is in fact, the flagship university of California. it was set up that way, and in the eyes of the entire system, which no other UC school challenges, it remains to this day.

So 15 years ago he gave a speech about being told to refrain from referring to Berkeley as the flagship.....yet 15 years later, the school is STILL allowed by the University of California system to keep calling itself the flagship school, while none of the other schools in the system, including UCLA, in any of their literature (hard copy or online) refer to themselves as the state's flagship school?

Are you kidding me?

Simple question. Why would the system allow them to keep the "we are the flagship university" verbage on their website if they didn't want the school to refer to itself in that manner?

Please answer me this.

Otherwise, his remark that he was told to do this was nothing more than an off the cuff remark that he said to play up to his audience.

The UC system has never come out publicly stating this.

When there are literally thousands of links available noting Berkeley as the flagship....and only one link showing one line of a speech made 15 years ago backing you up...don't you know when to throw in the towel?

here's just a few more for you.

CBS News story on the 50 flagship universities and which school's graduates earn the most money. Hint. Only one school in each state is named, and the one in CA is not UCLA.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505145_162-57573646/which-state-university-grads-earn-the-most/

U.S. Department of Education's rankings of the Nation's Flagship State Universities and Historically Black Colleges on Their Success in Enrolling Low-Income Students

http://www.jbhe.com/news_views/60_lowincomeenrolls.html

Now, are you finally ready to admit that you are wrong....or do you just want to continue on thinking that not only is Cal Berkeley wrong and you are right, but the U.S. Dept. of Education is not as smart as you are also?

I get it. Everyone is wrong and Upstater is right.

got it.

 

[IMind]

Do you not get how many more sports fans there are than academics?

People understand when you say Cal you mean Berkeley. Not UCLA or UCSD or UC-Davis. Cal.

I'm going to back upstater up on this one... outside of college sports... no one calls UC-Berkeley "Cal" or "California". The reason it's traditionally called Cal or California Golden Bears is because it's sports pre-date the entire UC system. It's a weird little anachronism that's survived... mainly because you can't get more conservative than college sports fans. (I mean only in college sports does a national championship 40 years ago get you invited to another conference.) I spuspect it broadens the appeal of Berkeley's sports teams as well which is why they didn't changed it as the UC system grew.

I think he's splitting hairs with the flagship thing though.. wikipedia (not that it's always correct) calls Berkeley the flagship... but it does go on to have a fairly broad definition of flagship.

 

[upstater]

Considering the audience he told this to (do you think he would have been so inclusive of A&M as the flagship of the state of Texas if he was delivering the speech in Austin) and considering he was being PC

1. (do you think he would have been so inclusive of A&M as the flagship of the state of Texas if he was delivering the speech in Austin)

Yes, he would have. A&M is a land grant school with an official Flagship designation! Furthermore, the school fits his expanded definition of flagship, which is a school with very high research.

he could have easily included UCLA in there along with Berkeley, like he did for TU and A&M, but he didn't... he only mentioned one school.

Wrong again. He mentioned other schools. He noted San Diego as a flagship. And, it's not TU. It's U. Texas.

it was set up that way, and in the eyes of the entire system, which no other UC school challenges, it remains
to this day.

No, it was not set up that way. Read the Master Plan. The MP is explicit that there is no flagship and that all the U. California schools are going to be Research 1 universities, with several (Irvine, SB, SD, UCLA, Davis, Berk) being AAUs as well. Only Santa Cruz and Riverside have failed to reach that threshold, but that's because of culture rather than a question of intensity.

So 15 years ago he gave a speech about being told to refrain from referring to Berkeley as the flagship.....yet 15 years later, the school is STILL allowed by the University of California system to keep calling itself the flagship school, while none of the other schools in the system, including UCLA, in any of their literature (hard copy or online) refer to themselves as the state's flagship school?

This has already been explained to you multiple times. He has an expansive definition of flagship that includes schools like San Diego. For him, a flagship is a Very High Research school. But since the Master Plan explicitly holds that there is no such school, he was told to stop using that designation. Berkeley uses that in its literature because it is the FIRST Cal campus, and other than Davis, was around for decades before the others came online. For them, the designation signifies a "First Among Equals" like the Eastern Orthodox Church in Istanbul. No one else in the state uses it. It is self-proclaimed, kind of like U. South Florida (http://chronicle.com/article/article-content/131141/ and http://jacksonville.com/news/politi...-doesn’t-last-long-critics-attack-senate-bill).

Because the term is contentious in its use, whether schools are squabbling over it or state legislatures, you need a set of criteria. Texas does it officially. Just like Idaho did in the article. None of that impresses me necessarily. Berdahl on the other hand does it informally by referring to very high research schools as flagships. He does this for a reason. To make sure that the Cal. State system doesn't receive the same amount of support per student as the U. Cal system because of political pressure. The key for me is the existence of a central campus for the system, as U. Illinois CU is, or else U. Wisconsin-Madison. Those are flagships. When you listed the criteria for a flagship earlier, UCLA ticked off more categories (such as size, research budget) than Berkeley did, and furthermore, even in terms of selectivity they were the same (18%), so what other than the fact that Berkeley was first makes it a flagship?

 

[upstater]

I'm going to back upstater up on this one... outside of college sports... no one calls UC-Berkeley "Cal" or "California". The reason it's traditionally called Cal or California Golden Bears is because it's sports pre-date the entire UC system. It's a weird little anachronism that's survived... mainly because you can't get more conservative than college sports fans. (I mean only in college sports does a national championship 40 years ago get you invited to another conference.) I spuspect it broadens the appeal of Berkeley's sports teams as well which is why they didn't changed it as the UC system grew.

I think he's splitting hairs with the flagship thing though.. wikipedia (not that it's always correct) calls Berkeley the flagship... but it does go on to have a fairly broad definition of flagship.

The problem is that there is no definition.

Under the criteria listed here for flagships, UCLA ticked off more boxes than Berkeley. Berkeley calls itself a flagship because they are first, while the Master Plan and the people at U. California tell them not to.

Then there's the definition used by Berkeley's Chancellor, which is that a VHR school is a flagship, which is why he includes multiple schools as such inside states, and he even mentions that San Diego is one.

The definition I use is petty simple. A main campus (whether it's VHR or not) with smaller branches and schools. Think U Wisconsin or U Illinois.

 

[CAHUSKY]

I'm going to back upstater up on this one... outside of college sports... no one calls UC-Berkeley "Cal" or "California". The reason it's traditionally called Cal or California Golden Bears is because it's sports pre-date the entire UC system. .

Huh? I grew up in Berkeley and have always refered to it as CAL as does most everyone I know. Most of my family went there and when someone ask where they went to school they say "CAL" and everyone knows what they mean.

 

[UConn Dan]

wow...still talking about flagships...

 

[clmssun]

As long as we are splitting hairs...
I am pretty sure the diplomas and letterhead, etc., from the main campus of the University of Illinois include "Urbana-Champaign" rather than "Champaign-Urbana". It seems it is always sports folks saying "C-U", while the academic folks are saying "U-C". The web domain is "uiuc.edu", for example. (and, of course, for that school known in sports circles as "Cal", the web domain is berkeley.edu)

 

[UPitt]

The problem is that there is no definition.

Under the criteria listed here for flagships, UCLA ticked off more boxes than Berkeley. Berkeley calls itself a flagship because they are first, while the Master Plan and the people at U. California tell them not to.

Then there's the definition used by Berkeley's Chancellor, which is that a VHR school is a flagship, which is why he includes multiple schools as such inside states, and he even mentions that San Diego is one.

The definition I use is petty simple. A main campus (whether it's VHR or not) with smaller branches and schools. Think U Wisconsin or U Illinois.

This is indeed the problem. College Board uses a definition that was described earlier. Upstarter stated his definition. USA Today uses a definition that includes at least 75 schools. Many states have designated Universities as flagship using undefined guidelines. Many people use popularity/respect/size/age/location/etc. to define a school as flagship.

I think we can all agree that the definition of flagship is not clear.

Many people, including many students of the UC system, would consider UC Berkeley to be the flagship. I know a few PhD graduates of UCSB. They consider UC Berkeley to be the flagship university of the UC system, but also consider UCLA to be a "flagship partner" when refering to sports or other non-academic activities. For academic purposes only, they still consider UC Berkeley to be the flagship because it was the original, but noted that due to the strength of the UC system UC Berkeley doesn't get the special considerations that flagships typically receive. As for the name, they say its Cal and UCLA for sports. For academics, many use Cal and Berkeley interchangable, but it's strictly Berkeley to those in academia. Lastly, they said that UC Berkeley does use the distinction of flagship, but mostly in reference to being the original UC school and rarely is it used to show superiority over the other schools. In summary they did not see the designation of UC Berkeley as flagship as important with respect to the UC system because all of the schools were academically strong. They did note that some states use flagship as a main campus and thus it retains a higher importance in those states. Again this just the perception of a few grads that spent a decade in the UC system.

 

[upstater]

As long as we are splitting hairs...
I am pretty sure the diplomas and letterhead, etc., from the main campus of the University of Illinois include "Urbana-Champaign" rather than "Champaign-Urbana". It seems it is always sports folks saying "C-U", while the academic folks are saying "U-C". The web domain is "uiuc.edu", for example. (and, of course, for that school known in sports circles as "Cal", the web domain is berkeley.edu)

Academics refer to it as Berkeley probably because the school itself refers to itself as such. Masthead on the website say Berkeley, not even a UC. Student newspaper refers to it as UC Berkeley. The same student newspaper refers to the system as University of California.

I know maybe one or two Berkeley undergrads, and a ton of grads who all call it Berkeley.

Growing up in Conn., I always called it Cal-Berkeley.

U. Buffalo was referred to as SUNY Buffalo before it rebranded itself as U. Buffalo.

Not sure what the current AD there is up to.

 

[NEforceUConn]

sorry guys, maybe I need a snickers, but the last 4 or 5 pages of this thread has been dreadful. I guess summer time is here.

Thank god we have an energetic FB coach and a police incident to spice things up, oh wait thats UNC.

 

[buggsy]

1. (do you think he would have been so inclusive of A&M as the flagship of the state of Texas if he was delivering the speech in Austin)

Yes, he would have. A&M is a land grant school with an official Flagship designation! Furthermore, the school fits his expanded definition of flagship, which is a school with very high research.

he could have easily included UCLA in there along with Berkeley, like he did for TU and A&M, but he didn't... he only mentioned one school.

Wrong again. He mentioned other schools. He noted San Diego as a flagship. And, it's not TU. It's U. Texas.

it was set up that way, and in the eyes of the entire system, which no other UC school challenges, it remains
to this day.

No, it was not set up that way. Read the Master Plan. The MP is explicit that there is no flagship and that all the U. California schools are going to be Research 1 universities, with several (Irvine, SB, SD, UCLA, Davis, Berk) being AAUs as well. Only Santa Cruz and Riverside have failed to reach that threshold, but that's because of culture rather than a question of intensity.

So 15 years ago he gave a speech about being told to refrain from referring to Berkeley as the flagship.....yet 15 years later, the school is STILL allowed by the University of California system to keep calling itself the flagship school, while none of the other schools in the system, including UCLA, in any of their literature (hard copy or online) refer to themselves as the state's flagship school?

This has already been explained to you multiple times. He has an expansive definition of flagship that includes schools like San Diego. For him, a flagship is a Very High Research school. But since the Master Plan explicitly holds that there is no such school, he was told to stop using that designation. Berkeley uses that in its literature because it is the FIRST Cal campus, and other than Davis, was around for decades before the others came online. For them, the designation signifies a "First Among Equals" like the Eastern Orthodox Church in Istanbul. No one else in the state uses it. It is self-proclaimed, kind of like U. South Florida (http://chronicle.com/article/article-content/131141/ and http://jacksonville.com/news/politics/2010-04-12/story/uf-flagship’-status-doesn’t-last-long-critics-attack-senate-bill).

Because the term is contentious in its use, whether schools are squabbling over it or state legislatures, you need a set of criteria. Texas does it officially. Just like Idaho did in the article. None of that impresses me necessarily. Berdahl on the other hand does it informally by referring to very high research schools as flagships. He does this for a reason. To make sure that the Cal. State system doesn't receive the same amount of support per student as the U. Cal system because of political pressure. The key for me is the existence of a central campus for the system, as U. Illinois CU is, or else U. Wisconsin-Madison. Those are flagships. When you listed the criteria for a flagship earlier, UCLA ticked off more categories (such as size, research budget) than Berkeley did, and furthermore, even in terms of selectivity they were the same (18%), so what other than the fact that Berkeley was first makes it a flagship?

you're EITHER just being argumentative, because you have been proven wrong and don't want to accept it.....or because you are not that bright.

On Berkeley's history page of their website , it says they are flagship university. That is the school's own words, not mine.

http://www.berkeley.edu/about/hist/

"Founded in the wake of the gold rush by leaders of the newly established 31st state, the University of California's flagship campus at Berkeley has become one of the preeminent universities in the world".

And then there's this little bit about being set up as the flagship.

"The early decades of the 20th century saw the launch of a "southern branch" of the University of California, at Los Angeles, in 1914 — thus initiating a statewide system (today with 10 campuses across California) with Berkeley as its flagship institution. "

Those are Berkeley's words, not mine.

Regarding the quote, he DID not mention San Diego. Maybe later on in the speech he did, but in the quote I quoted, he only mentioned by name three schools.... UT, Texas A&M, and Berkeley as flagships. That is it.

Regarding all that gobbled- you just spouted on...you did not answer why the UC system has not demanded Berkeley remove the verbage that they are the flagship....if the UC System had really asked Berkeley to stop referring to itself as such. It hasn't been one year since they supposedly made that request. It hasn't been 5. It has been 15 years. 15 YEARS.

This just proves how wrong you are, as that is something that would MOST DEFINITELY happen if they wanted all references to being a flagship removed. It would take one day to have that removed.

15 years later and you can still find multiple instances, including on Berkeley's history page...that they are the flagship.

SO as I said before, the school calls itself the flagship...none of the other schools in the system call themselves the flagship. None of the other schools call out Berkeley for calling itself the flagship...and the U.S. Govt. , specifically the Department of Education, calls Cal the flagship. So do about 100,00 other sources.'

The ONLY one who does NOT call Cal the flagship....is YOU.

You are just wrong. WRONG. Face it and get over it. It's ok to be wrong.

You just look stupid trying to argue something that you are losing so badly at.

By the way, I know UT Austin is UT and not TU. That was a typo.

What's your excuse for being so wrong in this argument? You have literally NO support on your side.

 

[upstater]

you're EITHER just being argumentative, because you have been proven wrong and don't want to accept it.....or because you are not that bright.

On Berkeley's history page of their website , it says they are flagship university. That is the school's own words, not mine.

http://www.berkeley.edu/about/hist/

"Founded in the wake of the gold rush by leaders of the newly established 31st state, the University of California's flagship campus at Berkeley has become one of the preeminent universities in the world. Its early guiding lights, charged with providing education (both "practical" and "classical") for the state's people, gradually established a distinguished faculty (with 22 Nobel laureates to date), a stellar research library, and more than 350 academic programs. "

Regarding the quote, he DID not mention San Diego. Maybe later on in the speech he did, but in the quote I quoted, he only mentioned by name three schools.... UT, Texas A&M, and Berkeley as flagships. That is it.

Regarding all that gobbled- you just spouted on...you did not answer why the UC system has not demanded Berkeley remove the verbage that they are the flagship....if the UC System had really asked Berkeley to stop referring to itself as such. It hasn't been one year since they supposedly made that request. It hasn't been 5. It has been 15 years. 15 YEARS.

This just proves how wrong you are, as that is something that would MOST DEFINITELY happen if they wanted all references to being a flagship removed. It would take one day to have that removed.

15 years later and you can still find multiple instances, including on Berkeley's history page...that they are the flagship.

SO as I said before, the school calls itself the flagship...none of the other schools in the system call themselves the flagship. None of the other schools call out Berkeley for calling itself the flagship...and the U.S. Govt. , specifically the Department of Education, calls Cal the flagship. So do about 100,00 other sources.'

The ONLY one who does NOT call Cal the flagship....is YOU.

You are just wrong. WRONG. Face it and get over it. It's ok to be wrong.

You just look stupid trying to argue something that you are losing so badly at.

By the way, I know UT Austin is UT and not TU. That was a typo.

What's your excuse for being so wrong in this argument? You have literally NO support on your side.

My post above answered all your concerns. You haven't refuted anything I said. You've made the same assertions ("I'm the only one who doesn't call it a flagship") even as Berdahl himself claims he was told NOT to call it a flagship. You are one bizarre person.

 

[buggsy]

My post above answered all your concerns. You haven't refuted anything I said. You've made the same assertions ("I'm the only one who doesn't call it a flagship") even as Berdahl himself claims he was told NOT to call it a flagship. You are one bizarre person.

You're saying that Berkeley is wrong about their own history (one of the premier universities in the world does not know their own history, yet you do?)

You're saying basically the whole world is wrong about CVal being the flagship of the UC system...and you are right....yet I'm the bizarre person?

I showed you a link from Berkeley's own website where they say they are the flagship university of the system, and where they say they were set up to be the flagship of the 10 school UC system, and you just disregard it because it flies in the face of your ridiculous argument.

And you call me bizarre? All because of a single remark made 15 years ago, unofficial at that. That's all you got.

I have the school itself refuting you. I have the U.S. Department of Education refuting you. I have about 1000 other links refuting you.

Yet you still won't concede. You don't take defeat gracefully, that's for sure. That is what's bizarre.

 

[upstater]

You're saying that Berkeley is wrong about their own history (one of the premier universities in the world does not know their own history, yet you do?)

Asked and answered already. Never said what you said I said. I wrote that the MP says the campuses are equal and that the Chancellor was told not to use the word flagship to describe his university. You claimed this wasn't true. I gave you a link that proved it was true. Now you're trying weasly words to skirt around these facts. So it's impossible to continue this discussion.

 

[IMind]

Huh? I grew up in Berkeley and have always refered to it as CAL as does most everyone I know. Most of my family went there and when someone ask where they went to school they say "CAL" and everyone knows what they mean.

My own experiences were different but I didn't grow up in the community and I'll definitely defer to you on that one.

 

[CAHUSKY]

My own experiences were different but I didn't grow up in the community and I'll definitely defer to you on that one.

I think weve established "academics" refer to it as "Berkeley" in academic circles and most others refer to it more casually as CAL. At least the folks I know, which includes academics like my father and best friend, who have advanced degrees from CAL. Or should I say Berkeley?