Not a lot of rumors flying lately

[upstater]

I'm not the one that is confused. Sadly, considering you're in education...it is you

Just as UNC Chapel Hill has its own Chancellor...as do the other 16 universities that make up the UNC system, CAL Berkeley has its own chancellor (Nicholas B. Dirks) just as UCLA has it's own chancellor (Gene Block) and UC San Diego (Pradeep Khosla) and the other UC schools as well. It matters not that a president oversees all these different schools.

Where you miss the point is...all the schools can have their own individual leader...and all can answer to a single leadership that oversees all the different schools, AND YET ONE INDIVIDUAL SCHOOL CAN STILL BE RECOGNIZED AS THE FLAGSHIP UNIVEFSITY OF THE ENTIRE SYSTEM.

That is what UC Berkeley is.

Just like only Chapel Hill lays claim to being the flagship university of North Carolina, Cal is the only school that lays claim in California.

In the system's own literature, only one of the UC schools is recognized within the UC system as the flagship university in
California...and that is Cal Berkeley.

http://www.berkeley.edu/about/hist/

You will find multiple examples within Berkeley's literature where they are referenced as the flagship university of the state of California. You will not find a single reference in which UCLA or UCSB or UC San Diego (or UC Merced or UC Riverside or any of the other schools) is referenced as the flagship. NOT ONE. Yet Berkeley is regularly called the flagship.

Even outside Berkeley's literature (and do you really think the UC system would allow CAL to publish that they are the flagship university if in fact they are not?) the only school in the UC system that comes up as the flagship university of the state is Cal Berkeley:

http://academicearth.org/universities/berkeley/
http://www.educationunlimited.com/camp_locations/view/7
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/sats/etc/ucb.html
http://www.linkedin.com/company/uc-Berkeley
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=UC Berkeley

Do a google search and you will find literally hundreds of others.

Just give it up already. You are wrong. Flat out wrong.

You are embarrassing yourself by saying Berkeley is NOT the flagship university of the Cal system. They are the only school to be recognized as such,...and no other UC system argues this.

Let it go already and take your medicine.

As for Cal, Yudof sets the policies and the rates at each school. I cant figure out why this is so difficult for you. University of California refers to several different universities. They are under the control of Yudof. They are headed by other people, but unlike U. Texas or UNC, those people do not control the schools. The hierarchy is entirely different precisely because U. California is ALL the schools together. Those are not branch campuses. UNC-Wilmington, that's a branch campus. U. Texas-San Antonio. That's a branch campus. What's the difference? One school offers a full slate of graduate degrees and programs, and the other doesn't. In the same way, AAU schools like San Diego and UCLA and others offer a full array of branch campuses.

And yes, Berkeley is told not to call itself a flagship.

You guys are so terribly confused about all this. It's brainless really. Even links to the university showing they refer to themselves as U. C. berkeley and that they refer to Yudof's kingdom as U. California don't convince you. Go on in your idiocy and ignorance which I guess is the right of sports fans in this case.

 

[whaler11]

That is one of the top 10 nuttiest comments I have ever read on this board.

Flagships don't play sports against small schools. Wow. You'll find that flagships are land grant schools. Care to list some of those to see who they play? I guarantee you there are several that don't participate in D1. Second, I never said UCSD is a flagship. Everyone here has understood that except for you.

I just gave you two additional links to back me up. What do you have? Nothing.

Yeah schools like North Dakota. For some reason you want to argue to the death that the University of California as everyone understands it isn't the flagship even though the vast majority of people recognize it as such.

 

[woomba]

I really think trying to equate chancellor control to flagships is muddying the issue - look at Florida's system.

By your logic University of Florida is not the Flagship because the State University System of Florida controls all 12 schools. It wasn't until 2007 that UF,FSU, and USF got permission from SUSF to charge higher tuition than the other Florida schools (but only to 30-40% higher than the state average). I suppose UCF and USF would be glad to hear that you consider them to be equals but I'm not sure how far spread that opinion would go.

Anyway, I already stated my views on this for a few pages - let's just agree to disagree here.

 

[AZHuskiePop]

Apparently the UCal website refers to itself as the California flagship University
Maybe someone should tell them.

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

 

[whaler11]

Its not even that complicated. You are the flagship based on perception. This is why LSU is a flagship. It is why Cal is a flagship. Because the other schools are attached to a frigging geography.

 

[upstater]

Yeah schools like North Dakota. For some reason you want to argue to the death that the University of California as everyone understands it isn't the flagship even though the vast majority of people recognize it as such.

There are lots of schools that are first established research land grant schools under the Morrill Act that never went D1. NYS and Cal are well known to have reorganized their schools in the 1960s into research centers, but none competed in D1 football until recently. A flagship school is the mothership of campuses, to which other smaller campuses take a back seat. The term flagship didn't even exist in relation to universities until the GI Bill and the late 1950s/early 1960s expansion.

 

[buggsy]

As for Cal, Yudof sets the policies and the rates at each school.

And yes, Berkeley is told not to call itself a flagship.

You guys are so terribly confused about all this. It's brainless really. Even links to the university showing they refer to themselves as U. C. berkeley and that they refer to Yudof's kingdom as U. California don't convince you. Go on in your idiocy and ignorance which I guess is the right of sports fans in this case.

I just proved to you that Berkeley calls itself the flagship university on its own website, (still there... not removed if they were told not to do this. Wouldn't the supreme ruler of the UC system have the authority to have that removed immediately if it were not the case?) and I gave you a wide list of external sources backing up what everyone but apparently you know to be true...that CAL is the flagship university of the state of California......and the best you can do is say we are all wrong and Berkeley was told not to do this?

With not a shred of proof that they were told not to do this?

Stop. Stop embarrassing yourself. I'm embarrassed for you.

I've given you no less than 6 examples where Berkeley is recognized as the flagship. One of which came from the school itself. If I spent 10 more minutes researching, I could have listed another several dozen. Just do a google search. You'll see what I mean.

Just give me one example showing that Berkeley is NOT the flagship. Or give me one example that they have been told not to state that they are.

You can't. You're wrong, and at this point you just don't want to concede an argument even though you know you are wrong.

 

[upstater]

Its not even that complicated. You are the flagship based on perception. This is why LSU is a flagship. It is why Cal is a flagship. Because the other schools are attached to a frigging geography.

No. It's not based on perception. States make official designations. That's why the link to Spitzer's link was interesting because it was going to be an official designation in the literature. Many states (like Florida) make this official designation. Texas makes it too. The ex-President of Berkeley Bergdahl even related in a 1998 speech how he was told by the U. Cal. people that he was not to refer to Cal as a flagship because that was not its official designation. Cal's monopoly on state funding, and the ban on research at fledgling campuses, was pulled during that period, and the U. Cal. people told Berkeley that there would be a maximum build out in a couple universities throughout the state (Cal. Davis was already a longstanding land-grant ag. school from the 1800s) and that Cal. would not be the flagship.

This is entirely different than what went on in Texas and other places where schools received official designations because the politicians wanted to make it clear that satellite campuses would not compete with the flagships. And to this day, I can't think of a satellite campus that has ever reached the ranks of the state flagships. Not a one.

 

[upstater]

I really think trying to equate chancellor control to flagships is muddying the issue - look at Florida's system.

By your logic University of Florida is not the Flagship because the State University System of Florida controls all 12 schools. It wasn't until 2007 that UF,FSU, and USF got permission from SUSF to charge higher tuition than the other Florida schools (but only to 30-40% higher than the state average). I suppose UCF and USF would be glad to hear that you consider them to be equals but I'm not sure how far spread that opinion would go.

Anyway, I already stated my views on this for a few pages - let's just agree to disagree here.

Wrong. Both Florida's schools are officially designated as flagships, and their relationship to the state is entirely different. They are not under the same administration like U. Cal is. U. Cal is one school broken into several campuses. That is not the state education system. There are other systems in Cal. Several systems. U. Cal is only one. Florida's system on the other hand is for all publics in the state and it does not have a President or a Chancellor. There is no one there who makes decisions about the various campuses. Entirely different.

 

[buggsy]

No. It's not based on perception. States make official designations. That's why the link to Spitzer's link was interesting because it was going to be an official designation in the literature. Many states (like Florida) make this official designation. Texas makes it too. The ex-President of Berkeley Bergdahl even related in a 1998 speech how he was told by the U. Cal. people that he was not to refer to Cal as a flagship because that was not its official designation. Cal's monopoly on state funding, and the ban on research at fledgling campuses, was pulled during that period, and the U. Cal. people told Berkeley that there would be a maximum build out in a couple universities throughout the state (Cal. Davis was already a longstanding land-grant ag. school from the 1800s) and that Cal. would not be the flagship.

This is entirely different than what went on in Texas and other places where schools received official designations because the politicians wanted to make it clear that satellite campuses would not compete with the flagships. And to this day, I can't think of a satellite campus that has ever reached the ranks of the state flagships. Not a one.

I call BS on this claim that the ex president was told not to refer to Berkeley as the flagship. I'm saying it. I think you are lying.

Unless you can prove that he was told to do this, through a link to an article or official quote, with someone stating this as fact, I think you are completely making this up.

If what you are saying is true, there is no way Berkeley would...to this day, still state that on their official website that they are the flagship university of the state of California. No way in hell.

Unless you can show us that this actually happened, everyone here should think you are not telling the truth in order to make your argument.

It's you against the world at this point.

 

[woomba]

Wrong. Both Florida's schools are officially designated as flagships, and their relationship to the state is entirely different. They are not under the same administration like U. Cal is. U. Cal is one school broken into several campuses. That is not the state education system. There are other systems in Cal. Several systems. U. Cal is only one. Florida's system on the other hand is for all publics in the state and it does not have a President or a Chancellor. There is no one there who makes decisions about the various campuses. Entirely different.

Frank T Brogan says hi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_T._Brogan

 

[upstater]

I just proved to you that Berkeley calls itself the flagship university on its own website, (still there... not removed if they were told not to do this. Wouldn't the supreme ruler of the UC system have the authority to have that removed immediately if it were not the case?) and I gave you a wide list of external sources backing up what everyone but apparently you know to be true...that CAL is the flagship university of the state of California......and the best you can do is say we are all wrong and Berkeley was told not to do this?

With not a shred of proof that they were told not to do this?

Stop. Stop embarrassing yourself. I'm embarrassed for you.

I've given you no less than 6 examples where Berkeley is recognized as the flagship. One of which came from the school itself. If I spent 10 more minutes researching, I could have listed another several dozen. Just do a google search. You'll see what I mean.

Just give me one example showing that Berkeley is NOT the flagship. Or give me one example that they have been told not to state that they are.

You can't. You're wrong, and at this point you just don't want to concede an argument even though you know you are wrong.

Berdahl's famous speech in 1998 is pretty well known in academia. If you google it, you'll find hundreds of references to it:

http://chancellor.berkeley.edu/chancellors/berdahl/speeches/future-of-flagship-universities

He uses the term flagship to define a university committed to excellence in research, rather than teaching. When you get to the bottom, he makes mention of multiple flagships in states, and even calls UCSD a flagship. He references the fact that people from U. California told him not to refer to Berkeley as a flagship. Out of all the official designations of flagships that we see in states all over the country, such as in Texas and Florida, it's notable that California expressly doesn't do this.

And why not: Because the "Master Plan" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Master_Plan_for_Higher_Education) expressly tried to expand U. California (which was only Davis and Berkeley originally) intentions were to establish schools every bit as good s Berkeley downstate.

I already linked above showing you how UC Berkeley refers to itself and how it refers to U. California, as though the two were distinctly different, but you ignored it.

You can find it here to understand the history of this question:

 

[upstater]

Frank T Brogan says hi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_T._Brogan

I actually searched for Chancellor and nothing popped up. In my early post to you on this, I said I know very little about U. Florida's system. I always thought those presidents were independent. Here's what is absolutely certain though: there are official designations of flagships around the country. Texas does it. Here's an example of the issue popping up in Florida: http://www.gainesville.com/article/20100327/articles/3271021

Many states do it. The UC Master Plan however took the opposite route completely. The big difference here is that the Florida state system oversees ALL public universities. The U. Cal. system does not. It is only one system among others.

 

[whaler11]

No. It's not based on perception. States make official designations. That's why the link to Spitzer's link was interesting because it was going to be an official designation in the literature. Many states (like Florida) make this official designation. Texas makes it too. The ex-President of Berkeley Bergdahl even related in a 1998 speech how he was told by the U. Cal. people that he was not to refer to Cal as a flagship because that was not its official designation. Cal's monopoly on state funding, and the ban on research at fledgling campuses, was pulled during that period, and the U. Cal. people told Berkeley that there would be a maximum build out in a couple universities throughout the state (Cal. Davis was already a longstanding land-grant ag. school from the 1800s) and that Cal. would not be the flagship.

This is entirely different than what went on in Texas and other places where schools received official designations because the politicians wanted to make it clear that satellite campuses would not compete with the flagships. And to this day, I can't think of a satellite campus that has ever reached the ranks of the state flagships. Not a one.

For academics it might not be set on perception. The rest of the world makes no distinction between Texas, Cal and Florida.

It might bother some academic type from California that Berkeley is clearly the flagship to the rest of the country.

People understand that UCSD and UCD are great schools. Flagship schools play sports at a high level, it's how people define them.

 

[upstater]

http://chancellor.berkeley.edu/chancellors/berdahl/speeches/future-of-flagship-universities

I just noticed this in the link. Check out the logo up top, check out the URL address.

Funny stuff.

This whole conversation started when someone pointed out that the SUNY system is unlike any oher in that no flagship is officially designated by the state (no matter what Spitzer says). I remarked that this is an odd statement given that NY carbon-copied California's master plan which designated no school as a flagship. This is well-known history for NY.

 

[woomba]

If your view is that official designation for flagships = flagships, that's fine.

I just wanted to get away from Chancellor control = flagship angle that you seemed to be pushing.

 

[upstater]

For academics it might not be set on perception. The rest of the world makes no distinction between Texas, Cal and Florida.

Everyone calls it Berkeley. Even Berkeley calls it Berkeley. And Berkeley calls Yudof's domain U. Cal! And, FYI, Texas A&M is considered a flagship.

You guys are very sports centric. Outside of sports, everyone knows it as Berkeley. If Katie Couric reports a story about Occupy Berkeley tomorrow morning, she is not going to refer to the school as Cal.

 

[upstater]

If your view is that official designation for flagships = flagships, that's fine.

I just wanted to get away from Chancellor control = flagship angle that you seemed to be pushing.

No, my view is not about official designations. Nor is it like Berdahl who wants to call any exceptional research school a flagship. My view is that singular schools that dominate research in their state, like U. Illinois, can be called flagships, whether they are officially designated or not. Others, especially U. California with its several competing top research institutions, don't have a flagship because they are designed not to have one.

You offered criteria earlier for what makes a flagship (size, selectivity, research, etc.) and Berkeley filled fewer of the criteria than UCLA. UCLA has them on size, and research and selectivity is even.

 

[whaler11]

Everyone calls it Berkeley. Even Berkeley calls it Berkeley. And Berkeley calls Yudof's domain U. Cal! And, FYI, Texas A&M is considered a flagship.

You guys are very sports centric. Outside of sports, everyone knows it as Berkeley. If Katie Couric reports a story about Occupy Berkeley tomorrow morning, she is not going to refer to the school as Cal.

Do you not get how many more sports fans there are than academics?

People understand when you say Cal you mean Berkeley. Not UCLA or UCSD or UC-Davis. Cal.

 

[woomba]

BTW - I'm not sure if that speech really helps your argument at least in this whole "what defines a Flagship" debate:

" But it was always clear that the one or two institutions that were the original land-grant or public universities in the states were the flagships--the leaders--even though they may not have been referred to as such. They became the centers for research and graduate education and they developed an array of professional schools that added to their size, scope, and pre-eminence."

"The term "flagship" universities came to be associated with these institutions primarily after the Second World War, largely in the 1960s, when the country underwent its second enormous expansion of higher education....It was in the context of this massive expansion, then, that the term "flagship" came to be used to refer to the original campus of the system, the campus from which branches were developed or other institutions attached. The metaphor obviously had a naval origin; each fleet has a flagship, the largest battleship or aircraft carrier from which the admiral directs the movements of the entire fleet. Given the origins of systems, the fleet metaphor is somewhat appropriate. The fleet is intended to maximize the firepower of a navy by concentrating it and coordinating it; the fleet moves in such manner defensively to provide best protection for the flagship."
To your credit, he does state the uniqueness of the UC system in trying to break that mold and expand the Flagship to the other UC campuses.

 

[buggsy]

Berdahl's famous speech in 1998 is pretty well known in academia. If you google it, you'll find hundreds of references to it:

http://chancellor.berkeley.edu/chancellors/berdahl/speeches/future-of-flagship-universities

He uses the term flagship to define a university committed to excellence in research, rather than teaching. When you get to the bottom, he makes mention of multiple flagships in states, and even calls UCSD a flagship. He references the fact that people from U. California told him not to refer to Berkeley as a flagship. Out of all the official designations of flagships that we see in states all over the country, such as in Texas and Florida, it's notable that California expressly doesn't do this.

And why not: Because the "Master Plan" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Master_Plan_for_Higher_Education) expressly tried to expand U. California (which was only Davis and Berkeley originally) intentions were to establish schools every bit as good s Berkeley downstate.

I already linked above showing you how UC Berkeley refers to itself and how it refers to U. California, as though the two were distinctly different, but you ignored it.

You can find it here to understand the history of this question:

So, in order to prove your point, you are going to refer to a speech in which the president himself makes reference to the two flagships in Texas...yet only lists one for the state of California (Berkeley) to make your point?

" The issue I want to talk about tonight is the future of "flagship" universities, institutions like the University of Texas at Austin, or Texas A&M at College Station, or the University of California, Berkeley. "

Thanks for proving my point.

 

[CAHUSKY]

U. Cal. San Diego, Santa Barbara, Irvine, Davis, Santa Cruz, etc.
.

Small point, no one in the history of California has ever referred to a UC campus as "U.Cal" anything. It's UC Berkeley, UC Davis, UCSB, UC Davis, UCSD, etc. U.Cal reference was driving me nuts

 

[upstater]

Do you not get how many more sports fans there are than academics?

People understand when you say Cal you mean Berkeley. Not UCLA or UCSD or UC-Davis. Cal.

I mentioned Couric as an example of someone outside academic (not affiliated with sports) who would be expected to refer to it by its most used name. Maybe she'd say Univ. of Connecticut instead of UConn, but if she were using the common name, I'd expect her to say Berkeley or UC Berkeley, never Cal or never even University of California.

When people say U. California, they mean U. California (system). Even Berkeley refers to U. Cal. as U. Cal.

 

[upstater]

BTW - I'm not sure if that speech really helps your argument at least in this whole "what defines a Flagship" debate:

" But it was always clear that the one or two institutions that were the original land-grant or public universities in the states were the flagships--the leaders--even though they may not have been referred to as such. They became the centers for research and graduate education and they developed an array of professional schools that added to their size, scope, and pre-eminence."

"The term "flagship" universities came to be associated with these institutions primarily after the Second World War, largely in the 1960s, when the country underwent its second enormous expansion of higher education....It was in the context of this massive expansion, then, that the term "flagship" came to be used to refer to the original campus of the system, the campus from which branches were developed or other institutions attached. The metaphor obviously had a naval origin; each fleet has a flagship, the largest battleship or aircraft carrier from which the admiral directs the movements of the entire fleet. Given the origins of systems, the fleet metaphor is somewhat appropriate. The fleet is intended to maximize the firepower of a navy by concentrating it and coordinating it; the fleet moves in such manner defensively to provide best protection for the flagship."
To your credit, he does state the uniqueness of the UC system in trying to break that mold and expand the Flagship to the other UC campuses.

How does it contradict me? He's talking about state systems trying to reduce an equalize campuses by putting them in one boat, so he's fighting for a flagship designation. He then points out that in California this didn't happen because the state poured MORE money into Berkeley and buffed up UCLA and San Diego among others, so there was no controversy from Berkeley regarding the Master Plan. He even ends the talk by calling San Diego a flagship. Not sure where you see contradiction other than in his liberal use of the term flagship.

 

[upstater]

So, in order to prove your point, you are going to refer to a speech in which the president himself makes reference to the two flagships in Texas...yet only lists one for the state of California (Berkeley) to make your point?

" The issue I want to talk about tonight is the future of "flagship" universities, institutions like the University of Texas at Austin, or Texas A&M at College Station, or the University of California, Berkeley. "

Thanks for proving my point.

Cherry-picked selective reading there. Read the whole ting next time.