Big 12 or B1G

[HuskyHawk]

In case anyone besides W was at all confused by my hypothetical, I have no reason whatsoever to believe that Vaughn solicited a prostitute who was underage, rather than of age.

O.K.? The point (fairly obviously I thought) is that schools are not responsible for criminal acts of their employees, unless the schools don't act appropriately upon discovering them.

Exactly. It's the cover-up that reflects badly on PSU, not the fact that Sandusky happened to work there. There's no evidence of any cover-up at Syracuse that I've seen.

As for the overall topic, B1G is the obvious choice. ACC next, but pretty close. Big XII last. For what it's worth, we're a basketball school. Being in the best basketball conference (soon to be the ACC) is logical. I have every confidence that regardless of conference affiliation, UConn football will never be a major power.

 

[Waquoit]

Did you miss the "if" in his post?

No. And I don't think it matters.

 

[Chin Diesel]

Exactly. It's the cover-up that reflects badly on PSU, not the fact that Sandusky happened to work there. There's no evidence of any cover-up at Syracuse that I've seen.

As for the overall topic, B1G is the obvious choice. ACC next, but pretty close. Big XII last. For what it's worth, we're a basketball school. Being in the best basketball conference (soon to be the ACC) is logical. I have every confidence that regardless of conference affiliation, UConn football will never be a major power.

Complete ignorance of a serial pedophile at 'cuse is a different kind of criminal activity than the cover ups at PSU. Job titles such as head coach and athletic director inherently have oversight of the organization built in to the job description.

Calhoun got slapped with a 3 game suspension and has had his name dragged through the mud for assistants sending text messages and phone calls. And the NCAA said it was reflective of a lack of institutional control.

What will they call it when you house a pedophile for 20 years and no one knows it?

 

[Adios]

As for the overall topic, B1G is the obvious choice. ACC next, but pretty close. Big XII last. For what it's worth, we're a basketball school. Being in the best basketball conference (soon to be the ACC) is logical. I have every confidence that regardless of conference affiliation, UConn football will never be a major power.

If we can develop our fanbase, you never know what would happen. Penn State didn't win a national title until the 80s. If we can outdraw BC, Syracuse, Pitt, and UMD on a regular basis, we'll be in a VERY good position to become one of the best football programs in the northeast. But that would require an affiliation with a powerful football conferences. The Big 12 is a good basketball conference. Adding Louisville and UConn would make them one of the most powerful basketball conferences in the land. You don't get better at football by joining the crappiest football conference in the land.

The ACC won 8 national titles since 1990 in basketball, all by UNC (3) and Duke (4), except one by UMD. Duke had no national championships before 1990 and people act as if they're going to be a power for another 100 years? And it's pretty obvious the ACC has some private school (4; 5 after Syracuse and Pitt get added). Public schools have better ground to stand on than private schools when it comes to athletics. The University of Texas' athletic department is now the richest athletic department in the country. Prior to 1990, NC State was as "elite" as UNC, when it comes to total national championships. The Big East won 4 since 1990, 3 by UConn. As for the Big 12, Kansas has one national title since 1990. The B1G also has only one national title in basketball since 1990 (Michigan did win it all in 1989). But the B1G is perfectly fine. Whatever the deal, add us to the Big 12, and it'll be 4 since 1990. Texas, K-State, Baylor (at least) also have decent basketball programs. The SEC won 5 since 1990. If ND does go to the Big 12, I don't think Texas will be trying to get into the Pac-12, at that point. They'll have plenty of options to build upwards. Texas' and Oklahoma's economies have a brighter future than friggin' North Carolina just because of natural resources.

Big 12 basketball (aiming for 16 teams):
Texas
TCU
Texas Tech
Baylor
Kansas
Kansas State
Iowa State
Oklahoma
Oklahoma State
West Virginia
Louisville
Rutgers
UConn
Notre Dame

Use your imagination for the last 2 schools. Even at 14 schools, that's a better all-sports conference than the ACC, top to bottom. Two private schools and one of them is the most powerful private athletic departments in the country. Regional rivalries sound nice and all. But that is not how you make the most money anymore. As proven by the ACC, regionalism means nothing. Worst BCS football conference and they are loaded on rich schools. Richer than the SEC but still suck in football compared to the SEC and everyone else. Any ACC school would leave for the SEC or the B1G in a heartbeat. And I think if planned well, they'd leave for the Big 12, too. For the most part, every conference that is expanding does not care to add schools from their own markets. They expand into new markets. Why should we care to help Syracuse and Boston College when we have an easy chance to eclipse them?

If we go to the ACC, we'll be hearing about Temple and ECU again. The logic of going to the ACC is baffling. Because there is none. Besides an academic consortium. But again, the best schools will probably get taken by other conferences. Geez.

 

[ConnHuskBask]

Butchy, the "baffling logic" that you can't seem to grasp is that UCONN fans would like us to maintain our regional rivalries, play top notch basketball, play football in a conference with national prestige but one where we can compete from day 1 and to align ourselves with like minded academic institutions that are amung some of the best in the US.

But yeah, being the Big12's BC georgraphic outlier and playing football in the great plains against schools who's athletic budget is light years ahead of ours is the way to go.

 

[HuskyHawk]

If we can develop our fanbase, you never know what would happen. Penn State didn't win a national title until the 80s. If we can outdraw BC, Syracuse, Pitt, and UMD on a regular basis, we'll be in a VERY good position to become one of the best football programs in the northeast. But that would require an affiliation with a powerful football conferences. The Big 12 is a good basketball conference. Adding Louisville and UConn would make them one of the most powerful basketball conferences in the land. You don't get better at football by joining the crappiest football conference in the land.
....
Big 12 basketball (aiming for 16 teams):
Texas
TCU
Texas Tech
Baylor
Kansas
Kansas State
Iowa State
Oklahoma
Oklahoma State
West Virginia
Louisville
Rutgers
UConn
Notre Dame
.....

If we go to the ACC, we'll be hearing about Temple and ECU again. The logic of going to the ACC is baffling. Because there is none. Besides an academic consortium. But again, the best schools will probably get taken by other conferences. Geez.

ND will never join the Big XII. Never. It will be B1G or ACC if anything. I spent three years at Kansas, so I'm well aware of the basketball and football in the Big XII. They always have some solid hoops teams, but the depth is nothing like the Big East. In a given year UT, OU or OSU can be good, or K-State lately and Baylor this year. But the bottom is weaker. The ACC is similar in that regard. Football would be good, but travel would be terrible for other sports. Of course, that's true in the NBE as well. But culturally I don't think we fit as well in the Big XII. Athletically, Soccer, our best sport other than basketball, is a non league sport. That's a problem. We fit better in the ACC, and I think it may well trend upward in football.

Temple and ECU? The ACC would never condescend to even speak to those schools. Why would they be in play? Even USF and UCF would be outside looking in.

 

[RS9999X]

If we go to the ACC, we'll be hearing about Temple and ECU again. The logic of going to the ACC is baffling. Because there is none. Besides an academic consortium. But again, the best schools will probably get taken by other conferences. Geez.

The logic?

The logic is this: the first one to offer an invite wins!

The B12 isn't a great regional fit -- either in Northern Industrial Culture (BiG) or East Coast Culture (ACC). That doesn't make it bad, just not the best cultural fit.

It's the least desirable academic fit for regional research cooperation and academic prestige and natural rivalries and travel.

The 12 has one prima donna program that lords it over the rest: Texas. That's always a volatile situation. The ACC shows some financial restraint in the football arms race and it still a significant step up.

None of that really matters. The first to extend an offer wins!

Let me guess: if the ACC offers youd' say no?

 

[The Funster]

Exactly. It's the cover-up that reflects badly on PSU, not the fact that Sandusky happened to work there. There's no evidence of any cover-up at Syracuse that I've seen.

As for the overall topic, B1G is the obvious choice. ACC next, but pretty close. Big XII last. For what it's worth, we're a basketball school. Being in the best basketball conference (soon to be the ACC) is logical. I have every confidence that regardless of conference affiliation, UConn football will never be a major power.

It also reflects badly on PSU that they did not look outside for a new President. If ever a time screamed for an outsider, one who is not indoctrinated into the "PSU way", it was more important to do so with the new President as opposed to the new FBHC. That fact alone could lead one to surmise that there was an extensive coverup and that coverup is still active and on going.

In regards to Syracuse, I don't think the university is in the same boat as PSU. There were investigations by organizations that had authority to prosecute criminal activity. Those investigation(s) were flawed and may well have been fraudulent but the incidents were not covered up by the university and in fact were uncorroborated by a key witness in the case. In both cases there may well have been rumored activities but in the Cuse case, at least, they were brought to light and investigated.

As far as the conference stuff, I'm afraid we just have to wait and it won't be so long of a wait that our athletic programs recede.

 

[Adios]

If the ACC gets poached for multiple schools (which is very possible), where are they going to look for schools?

 

[Excalibur]

Just as possible that the B12 loses schools.

 

[Adios]

All it takes is the Longhorns to commit long-term and the Big 12 stays. The ACC has more schools willing to leave than just Texas.

 

[RS9999X]

The problem: if the ACC and B12 dissolve in 2020 over a great new media contract it's safe to say UConn would still be in the weaker 12.

B12 Division
Texas
Texas Tech
Oklahoma
Oklahoma State
WVU
Kansas State

ACC Division
North Carolina
FSU
Miami
Georgia Tech
V Tech
Clemson

 

[Adios]

14 schools is going to be the minimum. Calipari expects the conferences to get bigger than 14.


http://www.cdispatch.com/sports/article.asp?aid=14927

University of Kentucky coach John Calipari has an idea. Calipari, who is essentially obligated to play rivals Louisville and Indiana every season and to be a part of a premier televised tournament event, said the "super conferences" will make up the entire NCAA tournament when conference realignment ends.

"Do you know what the buyout is in this league? Zero. If you want to leave, beat it. You'll be replaced in 45 seconds," Calipari said. "What will happen is we're going to have four leagues and then you'll have conferences with football-playing schools, parochial schools and non-football schools. Everybody screams for parity and that's how you do it, everybody looking the same."


Four conferences? SEC, B1G, Pac-12, and..... Based on what Calipari has said, it seems safe to say the Big East and ACC are doomed as "BCS" conferences.

 

[upstater]

Exactly. It's the cover-up that reflects badly on PSU, not the fact that Sandusky happened to work there. There's no evidence of any cover-up at Syracuse that I've seen.

As for the overall topic, B1G is the obvious choice. ACC next, but pretty close. Big XII last. For what it's worth, we're a basketball school. Being in the best basketball conference (soon to be the ACC) is logical. I have every confidence that regardless of conference affiliation, UConn football will never be a major power.

There is evidence of a cover-up at Syracuse.

1. In 2002, an allegation of Fine molesting was reported to the police by the current manager of the Hilton Hotel in Syracuse, who advised the police that she was trying to convince the victim to report it.

2. A month later, the alleged victim called. Without mentioning Fine's name, the police officer advised that he knew who the victim was referring to, given the context. But that the statute of limitations had passed. The conversation ended after five minutes. The officer had actually violated protocol since allegations of child abuse are supposed to be investigated even if the SOL passed to make sure the alleged abuser isn't abusing others. In the weeks that passed between the two calls, many questions were raised about how the case was handled. The DA criticized the police for shoddy protocol, and the police itself said there was no clarity as to what happened back then. An ex-Cuse basketball player was chief at the time.

3. Three years later, Davis contacted Syracuse. They told him that unless he personally came to SU for an in-person interview, they wouldn't do anything about it. Davis showed up for what he thought would be a meeting between university officials, namely the person representing Cantor with whom he had been speaking all along. And instead, there were two lawyers. No one knows what happened in that room since Cuse has not released the report publicly, but Davis has characterized it as brusque, short, very skeptical. Since he had flown out on his own dime and he was unemployed, he felt demoralized that Syracuse was taking no serious interest in what he had to say. This is what came out of the Post Standard article where the DA criticized the SU investigation as shoddy. All in all, 5 people were interviewed: Fine, Davis, Boeheim, Laurie Fine, and an unnamed “member of the Syracuse University athletic department," who is a key person in the cover-up. Why? Because as the DA's subsequent report shows, the athletic department member noted that Davis years earlier told him about the sexual abuse,

"though that individual was unsure what if anything he did with that information.”

4. The fallout from that investigation came from the DA mostly who said:

The lawyers ignored a number of red flags that were raised in Bernie Fine’s statement and did not interview a very important corroborating witness of Bobby Davis’ story. (Fitzpatrick did not name that person).

5. SU’s investigators “never called or contacted Mr. Davis for a single follow-up question.” The only response he received was a three-sentence letter that said the allegations were unfounded and the case was closed.

 

[upstater]

It also reflects badly on PSU that they did not look outside for a new President. If ever a time screamed for an outsider, one who is not indoctrinated into the "PSU way", it was more important to do so with the new President as opposed to the new FBHC. That fact alone could lead one to surmise that there was an extensive coverup and that coverup is still active and on going.

In regards to Syracuse, I don't think the university is in the same boat as PSU. There were investigations by organizations that had authority to prosecute criminal activity. Those investigation(s) were flawed and may well have been fraudulent but the incidents were not covered up by the university and in fact were uncorroborated by a key witness in the case. In both cases there may well have been rumored activities but in the Cuse case, at least, they were brought to light and investigated.

As far as the conference stuff, I'm afraid we just have to wait and it won't be so long of a wait that our athletic programs recede.

There is a search for a new president. Erickson is the interim president. The Cuse investigation was done by their law firm and took all of an hour of interviewing Davis and never following up. PSU's head of campus police, though never launching a formal investigation, did even more than that (mind you, I'm not defending him, just saying both schools were disinterested and did shoddy work).

 

[upstater]

No, the public doesn't care about your academics if you are protecting and enabling child molesters. I know that's probably hard to wrap your head around since it's such a nuanced opinion.

"PSU person" is exactly right. It's like some sort of bizarre cult. Yeah, look down your noses at Ohio State because the kids don't go to class or Auburn because they pay their QB. You can all rest easy that your heroes that had a great APR result... certainly they should be commended for that.

I'll say it again. I don't care if the public cares about PSU academics. I think PSU people should care about PSU academics.

If you think they shouldn't, I'd say that's bizarre.

 

[businesslawyer]

There is evidence of a cover-up at Syracuse.

1. In 2002, an allegation of Fine molesting was reported to the police by the current manager of the Hilton Hotel in Syracuse, who advised the police that she was trying to convince the victim to report it.

2. A month later, the alleged victim called. Without mentioning Fine's name, the police officer advised that he knew who the victim was referring to, given the context. But that the statute of limitations had passed. The conversation ended after five minutes. The officer had actually violated protocol since allegations of child abuse are supposed to be investigated even if the SOL passed to make sure the alleged abuser isn't abusing others. In the weeks that passed between the two calls, many questions were raised about how the case was handled. The DA criticized the police for shoddy protocol, and the police itself said there was no clarity as to what happened back then. An ex-Cuse basketball player was chief at the time.

3. Three years later, Davis contacted Syracuse. They told him that unless he personally came to SU for an in-person interview, they wouldn't do anything about it. Davis showed up for what he thought would be a meeting between university officials, namely the person representing Cantor with whom he had been speaking all along. And instead, there were two lawyers. No one knows what happened in that room since Cuse has not released the report publicly, but Davis has characterized it as brusque, short, very skeptical. Since he had flown out on his own dime and he was unemployed, he felt demoralized that Syracuse was taking no serious interest in what he had to say. This is what came out of the Post Standard article where the DA criticized the SU investigation as shoddy. All in all, 5 people were interviewed: Fine, Davis, Boeheim, Laurie Fine, and an unnamed “member of the Syracuse University athletic department," who is a key person in the cover-up. Why? Because as the DA's subsequent report shows, the athletic department member noted that Davis years earlier told him about the sexual abuse,


4. The fallout from that investigation came from the DA mostly who said:


5. SU’s investigators “never called or contacted Mr. Davis for a single follow-up question.” The only response he received was a three-sentence letter that said the allegations were unfounded and the case was closed.

Oh vey. Upstater -- you are a bright guy, and you ought to step back and ask yourself if you are seeing this differently than everyone else because you have a dog in the hunt. Because you do.

You are analyzing trees and not seeing a forest. Syracuse's investigation was not a "cover up" because no one thought there was a reasonable chance that Fine was a child molester. The local police, and even the university, may not have dealt with it correctly and ideally, but there is no evidence (and not many who believe) that anyone was covering something up because no one thought something happened. At PSU, people did know that something happened, or at least believed it was reasonably likely that it had. That makes everything else you wrote quibbling about details out of context.

 

[Chin Diesel]

I'll say it again. I don't care if the public cares about PSU academics. I think PSU people should care about PSU academics.

If you think they shouldn't, I'd say that's bizarre.

You realize that most PSU grads are hired by the "public". It's very much in PSU's interest to make sure that a PSU education is valued.

 

[upstater]

Oh vey. Upstater -- you are a bright guy, and you ought to step back and ask yourself if you are seeing this differently than everyone else because you have a dog in the hunt. Because you do.

You are analyzing trees and not seeing a forest. Syracuse's investigation was not a "cover up" because no one thought there was a reasonable chance that Fine was a child molester. The local police, and even the university, may not have dealt with it correctly and ideally, but there is no evidence (and not many who believe) that anyone was covering something up because no one thought something happened. At PSU, people did know that something happened, or at least believed it was reasonably likely that it had. That makes everything else you wrote quibbling about details out of context.

Let me get this straight. A victim comes up and says he's been molested, and there's no reasonable chance he's telling the truth?

It's the same thing. Both did not investigate to the fullest. I realize people are still going on about the grand jury presentment at PSU because the national story has been dropped, but McQueary has taken huge hits since then, both in the pretrial testimony which diverges radically from the presentment and in the unauthorized release of the grand jury testimony which also diverges from the presentment. In short, the lawyers who saw the pretrial testimony have said it's a longshot a best that the two PSU administrators will be found guilty of perjury, not because perjury is difficult to prove, but because even friends of McQueary's have testified that he misrepresented what he saw. In the national media, the big story of the new testimony was that Paterno reported a week late because he didn't want to ruin the administrator's weekends. Now, I don't know what's wrong precisely with Paterno in the last year, but the testimony seems addled, because all those who testified agree that Paterno met with McQueary on Saturday and the administrators the very next morning. The point is, Joe's seeming callousness (which at this point seems a product of his addled memory) took prominence over the actual testimony.

Several weeks ago I posted here that I thought there was a cover-up and that they should all be fired. I thought that because the PSU Pres. Spanier was totally dismissive in another case as he stated he didn't want to see a tape made by a victim of a former professor. But after hearing the new testimony, I think that McQueary screwed up by no telling people what he saw, and subsequently I think the administrators did not pursue the investigation with enough energy. But from the testimony it appears as though they were not told that a rape had taken place.

 

[Adios]

Amazing what the mention of Penn State can do to a thread. Is this a sign that the B1G should take us and Rutgers in??

 

[whaler11]

I'll say it again. I don't care if the public cares about PSU academics. I think PSU people should care about PSU academics.

If you think they shouldn't, I'd say that's bizarre.

I'll tell you this again. The public doesn't care what you or PSU supporters think, because the public thinks anyone who supports PSU is a delusional enabler.

I'll lay this out as clearly as possible, so that potentially even you don't miss the point: When your administration and community enables a child rapist, anything and everything else you've done becomes meaningless.

 

[Chin Diesel]

I'll tell you this again. The public doesn't care what you or PSU supporters think, because the public thinks anyone who supports PSU is a delusional enabler.

I'll lay this out as clearly as possible, so that potentially even you don't miss the point: When your administration and community enables a child rapist, anything and everything else you've done becomes meaningless.

Upstater and honey badger, two peas in a pod. They don't care.

 

[upstater]

I'll tell you this again. The public doesn't care what you or PSU supporters think, because the public thinks anyone who supports PSU is a delusional enabler.

I'll lay this out as clearly as possible, so that potentially even you don't miss the point: When your administration and community enables a child rapist, anything and everything else you've done becomes meaningless.

One thing I learned at that school was to move beyond being a dunderhead. It's not meaningless to NOT be a dunderhead. At that school, they teach things like having the ability to think beyond 2 + 2. Such as, education of PSU students and athletes is still important despite what happened. Even if some others, who really are only thinking about how their own football team might take advantage of the situation and could give a s*** less otherwise, think the whole school should be obliterated.

Just to make it easy for you so you don't miss the point: PSU wants academics to matter to athletes and take precedence,a s they always have. And that's different from many other schools out there. Not all. But many of them.

 

[whaler11]

One thing I learned at that school was to move beyond being a dunderhead. It's not meaningless to NOT be a dunderhead. At that school, they teach things like having the ability to think beyond 2 + 2. Such as, education of PSU students and athletes is still important despite what happened. Even if some others, who really are only thinking about how their own football team might take advantage of the situation and could give a s*** less otherwise, think the whole school should be obliterated.

Just to make it easy for you so you don't miss the point: PSU wants academics to matter to athletes and take precedence,a s they always have. And that's different from many other schools out there. Not all. But many of them.

Too bad they didn't teach people to avoid double negatives. While your stance is great, you can't wrap your head around the fact that you no longer get to look down your noses at the Ohio States of the world - yet that doesn't stop you or your peers.

 

[upstater]

Too bad they didn't teach people to avoid double negatives. While your stance is great, you can't wrap your head around the fact that you no longer get to look down your noses at the Ohio States of the world - yet that doesn't stop you or your peers.

Dub negs are proper when used for emphasis.

I can say whatever I want about OSU. OSU has always had a cheater's culture.