Xavier’s Enrollment Challenges

[Chuck]

Chin, when you have a little time check out the annual, all in costs of mid-level private schools in the northeast. You won't find many at the price you quoted. Most are 15% - 20% higher.

When my son (recently turned 30) was early in high school I started investigating different schools up here (won't name any as I don't want to offend anyone who may h ave gone to one). I was stunned at the cost of some of the private schools that had run of the mill acceptance standards/academic standing. I can understand a few private schools up here charging a premium rate, but I stated many times "I refuse to pay a premium for mediocrity".

The thing is many of those schools exist solely because of affluent families who feel it is beneath them to send their kid (who couldn't get into a school of choice) to a public university. I can name close to a dozen $90k a year schools up here that won't give a better education than Southern CT or Central CT, but fir the students who attend those schools, a directional state school would dishonor the family name.

Just an fyi to compare apples to apples (or apples to peaches). Those private schools aren't $90k compared to southern schools at $30k. The most expensive schools are about $73k for tuition and most mid-level private schools are in the $60ks. You are factoring in room and board which would push up those southern schools as well (almost $58k for Alabama). In fact, those awesome dorms and Greek houses at places like Alabama cost a lot more than standard dorms.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Just an fyi to compare apples to apples (or apples to peaches). Those private schools aren't $90k compared to southern schools at $30k. The most expensive schools are about $73k for tuition and most mid-level private schools are in the $60ks. You are factoring in room and board which would push up those southern schools as well (almost $58k for Alabama). In fact, those awesome dorms and Greek houses at places like Alabama cost a lot more than standard dorms.

Eh, not really. At least here in suburban Boston (I assume CT would be the same) kids coming out of good HS are getting merit money to head south. So much so that it's cheaper than UMass or UConn in state tuition. Those schools have been luring higher SAT/GPA northern kids for years now and have those moved up in the rankings, which makes even more appealing to northern parents. I also think Covid caused a shift, as kids up north were locked in their dorm rooms in masks and taking virtual classes while kids in say Florida, went to class as normal. Those big southern public schools are poaching kids and it's not likely to stop anytime soon.

Also, private schools are certainly more than the 60s. Hell tuition is more than that and you've got room and board in an expensive location like Boston or NYC. My daughter finished up at Northeastern this morning. It was not cheap. More than $80k a year. Now I'll admit that at every lesser private she was admitted to she got merit aid. Even UVM offered her a lot.

 

[Chuck]

Eh, not really. At least here in suburban Boston (I assume CT would be the same) kids coming out of good HS are getting merit money to head south. So much so that it's cheaper than UMass or UConn in state tuition. Those schools have been luring higher SAT/GPA northern kids for years now and have those moved up in the rankings, which makes even more appealing to northern parents. I also think Covid caused a shift, as kids up north were locked in their dorm rooms in masks and taking virtual classes while kids in say Florida, went to class as normal. Those big southern public schools are poaching kids and it's not likely to stop anytime soon.

Also, private schools are certainly more than the 60s. Hell tuition is more than that and you've got room and board in an expensive location like Boston or NYC. My daughter finished up at Northeastern this morning. It was not cheap. More than $80k a year. Now I'll admit that at every lesser private she was admitted to she got merit aid. Even UVM offered her a lot.

Not attacking you, but read my post. There is conflicting comparisons of school costs. Someone compared southern schools at $30k for out of state cost vs $70k+ in the northeast. Someone else jumped in and said the northern schools are in the $90s. I was only pointing out that the comparison mixes tuition/fees for the southern state schools (even then it's not $30k for most) and tuition/fees/room/board for the privates. There are no private schools that are in the $90s for tuition and fees.

The main point seemed to be comparing mediocre private schools to southern state schools as a northern kid. Totally fair, but here are the numbers. The more elite privates are in the $70k-$73k range for tuition/fees, but it's hard to compare Amherst to Alabama. A school like Providence (I'm just picking a school that most wouldn't call "elite"), for example, is $65k and Alabama is $35k for tuition/fees (Clemson is $42k).

Room/board is important, but those costs are often similar unless you are in an expensive city, like Boston. One of my kids is in a mediocre dorm, but it's cheaper than Alabama.

Once you get into figuring out merit and financial aid, it's like herding cats. It's too hard to judge real costs until you see what that real cost would be for you/your kid. I don't judge anyone's decision on where they go to college. That goes for kids going to low rated expensive schools, low rated cheap schools and everything in between. Do what's best for you (but that includes making sure the school will be around for a while after you graduate).

 

[HuskyHawk]

Not attacking you, but read my post. The poster was comparing $30k for southern schools to $90k plus for northern private schools. I was only pointing out that it's just not accurate unless you are talking in state cost for the southern state school.

The main point seemed to be comparing mediocre private schools to southern state schools as a northern kid. The more elite privates are in the $70k-$73k range for tuition/fees, but it's hard to compare Amherst to Alabama. A school like Providence (I'm just picking a school that most wouldn't call "elite"), for example, is $65k and Alabama is $35k for tuition/fees. And those awesome dorms you see in many of the southern schools are add ons.

Once you get into figuring out merit and financial aid, it's like herding cats. It's too hard to judge real costs until you see what that real cost would be for you/your kid. I don't judge anyone's decision on where they go to college. That goes for kids going to low rated expensive schools, low rated cheap schools and everything in between. Do what's best for you (but that includes making sure the school will be around for a while after you graduate).

I get it. It's not simple and is different for every kid. Auburn is $34 out of state (so is South Carolina). Assume maybe $8k merit and that's $26. Room and board is $17 (I'll even say $20 for that sorority) so 26+20=46. Providence doesn't give much merit, so let's take Fairfield, it's relatively cheaper anyway at $59k for tuition but room and board is $22k. Merit might be about $14k, so $45+22= 67. That's still a $20k a year gap. Even a high quality midwestern school like Purdue is $44 a year out of state with no merit aid.

Most of those big state schools are better than a school like Fairfield, or Sacred Heart, have a vastly more robust alumni network, and are in a region with more job growth. Factor in the cost advantage and that kids and their parents are focusing on STEM and Business rather than liberal arts, and it's a real competitive advantage that is hard to ignore. Worcester Polytechnic is $75k. How do you choose that over Purdue as an engineering student? WPI is ranked #64 for undergrad engineering and Purdue is #8. Georgia Tech is an insane deal as well.

To your point, it's highly individualized. My kid wanted an urban environment. She hated UConn and UNH. Wouldn't even apply. I didn't even take her to Amherst. She also had no idea what she wanted to study, if you do know, that's an advantage. Northeastern was the most expensive option for her (and highest rated) but with Co-op helping to direct her towards a field of study it was a good choice. But loads of her high school classmates at a Catholic HS in metro Boston went to big southern public schools. For many it wasn't money, but warmth, football, Greek life and college fun that appealed.

 

[upstater]

Eh, not really. At least here in suburban Boston (I assume CT would be the same) kids coming out of good HS are getting merit money to head south. So much so that it's cheaper than UMass or UConn in state tuition. Those schools have been luring higher SAT/GPA northern kids for years now and have those moved up in the rankings, which makes even more appealing to northern parents. I also think Covid caused a shift, as kids up north were locked in their dorm rooms in masks and taking virtual classes while kids in say Florida, went to class as normal. Those big southern public schools are poaching kids and it's not likely to stop anytime soon.

Also, private schools are certainly more than the 60s. Hell tuition is more than that and you've got room and board in an expensive location like Boston or NYC. My daughter finished up at Northeastern this morning. It was not cheap. More than $80k a year. Now I'll admit that at every lesser private she was admitted to she got merit aid. Even UVM offered her a lot.

Here is the out of state tuition at these SEC schools:

• Alabama: $25,950
• Auburn: $26,424
• Georgia: $27,574
• Tennessee: $28,380
• Florida: $28,590
• South Carolina: $29,898

UConn is $23,000 and UMass is $18,000.

So, if they give any significant amount of aid, they fall below the expenditure-per-student number which has to be in the 20s. They'd be losing money if they undercut UConn or UMass.

I'm not saying you're wrong but the math isn't mathing.

If you told me this were true at Michigan ($62k), I'd believe it 100%.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Here is the out of state tuition at these SEC schools:

• Alabama: $25,950
• Auburn: $26,424
• Georgia: $27,574
• Tennessee: $28,380
• Florida: $28,590
• South Carolina: $29,898

UConn is $23,000 and UMass is $18,000.

So, if they give any significant amount of aid, they fall below the expenditure-per-student number which has to be in the 20s. They'd be losing money if they undercut UConn or UMass.

I'm not saying you're wrong but the math isn't mathing.

If you told me this were true at Michigan ($62k), I'd believe it 100%.

Those numbers are wrong. Bama is $34,542 Auburn is $35,986. UGA is 30,878. UT 33,336. Florida 30,900 South Carolina 36,988.

By the way, I don't think they are throwing merit at every northern kid. I think they target some to boost their stats, like most do with merit. They don't really need to for others because they are affordable enough already compared to our local privates or even out of state publics in the north.

I look at where the kids from my daughter's Catholic HS in metro Boston go. It's stunning how many go to these schools. Clemson is probably the most popular. 6 kids from her class went to Clemson. 3 Auburn. 3 Tennessee. 3 Bama. Many others too. This is a change.

 

[upstater]

Those numbers are wrong. Bama is $34,542 Auburn is $35,986. UGA is 30,878. UT 33,336. Florida 30,900 South Carolina 36,988.

That makes it even worse then. In-state tuition should be less even after merit aid.

Like I said, if you're telling me you went to Michigan because they gave you $20k, I will certainly believe Michigan admitted you for $43k per year. They're making money. But if you're telling me Alabama gave you $15k, I won't believe it. They'd be losing money on the deal.

 

[HuskyHawk]

That makes it even worse then. In-state tuition should be less even after merit aid.

Like I said, if you're telling me you went to Michigan because they gave you $20k, I will certainly believe Michigan admitted you for $43k per year. They're making money. But if you're telling me Alabama gave you $15k, I won't believe it. They'd be losing money on the deal.

Those are the out of state numbers. But in state isn't in the 20s. At Bama it is under 12.

Cost of Attendance - Afford | The University of Alabama

Affording college at the University of Alabama

afford.ua.edu

 

[Chin Diesel]

Chin, when you have a little time check out the annual, all in costs of mid-level private schools in the northeast. You won't find many at the price you quoted. Most are 15% - 20% higher.

When my son (recently turned 30) was early in high school I started investigating different schools up here (won't name any as I don't want to offend anyone who may h ave gone to one). I was stunned at the cost of some of the private schools that had run of the mill acceptance standards/academic standing. I can understand a few private schools up here charging a premium rate, but I stated many times "I refuse to pay a premium for mediocrity".

The thing is many of those schools exist solely because of affluent families who feel it is beneath them to send their kid (who couldn't get into a school of choice) to a public university. I can name close to a dozen $90k a year schools up here that won't give a better education than Southern CT or Central CT, but fir the students who attend those schools, a directional state school would dishonor the family name.

Yeah, I figured I was lowballing the tuition and room and board. OTOH, so many kids are getting grants or scholarships, who knows what the average MSRP really is for many privates.

Regardless, the Ivies are safe, but the smaller schools whose financial outcomes for employment aren't crazy good are going the way of the Dodo. And the northeast is ground zero for small, private schools. Not enough kids coming out of HS and more and more wanting to go south for the college experience.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

Here is the out of state tuition at these SEC schools:

• Alabama: $25,950
• Auburn: $26,424
• Georgia: $27,574
• Tennessee: $28,380
• Florida: $28,590
• South Carolina: $29,898

UConn is $23,000 and UMass is $18,000.

So, if they give any significant amount of aid, they fall below the expenditure-per-student number which has to be in the 20s. They'd be losing money if they undercut UConn or UMass.

I'm not saying you're wrong but the math isn't mathing.

If you told me this were true at Michigan ($62k), I'd believe it 100%.

Are your numbers for UConn & UMass in state or out of state? They appear to be very low of they are out of state numbers (which is how it reads).

 

[upstater]

Are your numbers for UConn & UMass in state or out of state? They appear to be very low of they are out of state numbers (which is how it reads).

In-state. We're comparing in-state costs to out-of-state costs.

 

[upstater]

Yeah, I figured I was lowballing the tuition and room and board. OTOH, so many kids are getting grants or scholarships, who knows what the average MSRP really is for many privates.

Regardless, the Ivies are safe, but the smaller schools whose financial outcomes for employment aren't crazy good are going the way of the Dodo. And the northeast is ground zero for small, private schools. Not enough kids coming out of HS and more and more wanting to go south for the college experience.

Enrollment at many of the NESCACs is increasing and so are applications. They are rejecting more students than ever before.

As much as kids watch college football, they also watch Sex Lives of College Girls, and a lot of them are looking for that campus experience. The numbers are up.

If you're talking about non-NESCAC private schools, you're right, but those are deeply discounted already. The NESCACs have 60% of enrolling students paying full price.

 

[upstater]

Those are the out of state numbers. But in state isn't in the 20s. At Bama it is under 12.

Cost of Attendance - Afford | The University of Alabama

Affording college at the University of Alabama

afford.ua.edu

???

I was responding to your post.

You wrote this: "At least here in suburban Boston (I assume CT would be the same) kids coming out of good HS are getting merit money to head south. So much so that it's cheaper than UMass or UConn in state tuition."

You were discussing the costs of in-state schooling in the northeast versus out-of-state costs in the SEC.

That's why I responded with those numbers.

 

[BigTenFan]

I get it. It's not simple and is different for every kid. Auburn is $34 out of state (so is South Carolina). Assume maybe $8k merit and that's $26. Room and board is $17 (I'll even say $20 for that sorority) so 26+20=46. Providence doesn't give much merit, so let's take Fairfield, it's relatively cheaper anyway at $59k for tuition but room and board is $22k. Merit might be about $14k, so $45+22= 67. That's still a $20k a year gap. Even a high quality midwestern school like Purdue is $44 a year out of state with no merit aid.

Most of those big state schools are better than a school like Fairfield, or Sacred Heart, have a vastly more robust alumni network, and are in a region with more job growth. Factor in the cost advantage and that kids and their parents are focusing on STEM and Business rather than liberal arts, and it's a real competitive advantage that is hard to ignore. Worcester Polytechnic is $75k. How do you choose that over Purdue as an engineering student? WPI is ranked #64 for undergrad engineering and Purdue is #8. Georgia Tech is an insane deal as well.

To your point, it's highly individualized. My kid wanted an urban environment. She hated UConn and UNH. Wouldn't even apply. I didn't even take her to Amherst. She also had no idea what she wanted to study, if you do know, that's an advantage. Northeastern was the most expensive option for her (and highest rated) but with Co-op helping to direct her towards a field of study it was a good choice. But loads of her high school classmates at a Catholic HS in metro Boston went to big southern public schools. For many it wasn't money, but warmth, football, Greek life and college fun that appealed.

Sent 2 to Purdue for Engineering. 1 was accepted to WPI - Purdue is half the price, hasn't raised tuition in 12 years. No brainer

 

[HuskyHawk]

???

I was responding to your post.

You wrote this: "At least here in suburban Boston (I assume CT would be the same) kids coming out of good HS are getting merit money to head south. So much so that it's cheaper than UMass or UConn in state tuition."

You were discussing the costs of in-state schooling in the northeast versus out-of-state costs in the SEC.

That's why I responded with those numbers.

But those numbers were wrong. I shouldn't have said cheaper. I should have said comparable. Some of them are getting merit money, obviously not all of them. But the main thrust of this thread isn't those public schools, but the smaller, non-elite (not NESCACs or Ivy or even BU/BC/Northeastern which all are doing well) privates. Xavier isn't even expensive for a private school and is struggling.

 

[UConnJim]

If you analyze Xavier's data, applications have surged but yield has fallen. (10,661 apps in 2015/2016 vs 16,750 apps in 2023/2024) It seems to me that Xavier hasn't figured out how to manage admissions with the changes that the Common App has presented to colleges. They need to figure out how to get more kids who are applying to attend or to find more kids to apply that want to attend.

 

[upstater]

But those numbers were wrong. I shouldn't have said cheaper. I should have said comparable. Some of them are getting merit money, obviously not all of them. But the main thrust of this thread isn't those public schools, but the smaller, non-elite (not NESCACs or Ivy or even BU/BC/Northeastern which all are doing well) privates. Xavier isn't even expensive for a private school and is struggling.

We agree on the midlist privates and this has been actually happening for many years already.

But as for the in-state and out-of-state numbers, I already addressed that in response to you. The higher numbers actually reinforced my point that in-state will always be cheaper than going to an SEC school. I really think the allure is frats/sororities and weather.

 

[upstater]

Sent 2 to Purdue for Engineering. 1 was accepted to WPI - Purdue is half the price, hasn't raised tuition in 12 years. No brainer

A lot depends on the field. You can't reproduce engineering at a state AAU school at a smaller private unless we're talking about MIT or CalTech, Johns Hopkins, Carnegie-Mellon. I'm not really sure about places like RPI and how they're holding up.

In other disciplines, schools are very different and they deliver a very different level of rigor and expertise. They aren't all the same. It should be easier for parents to dig into the differences academically, but as a parent who just went through this process, the discussion of academics on campus tours or even from admissions specialists was next to nil. You have to go through other sources to get that info. USNews ranking of departments isn't helpful either.

 

[HuskyHawk]

We agree on the midlist privates and this has been actually happening for many years already.

But as for the in-state and out-of-state numbers, I already addressed that in response to you. The higher numbers actually reinforced my point that in-state will always be cheaper than going to an SEC school. I really think the allure is frats/sororities and weather.

I think we agree on much of the appeal. But they do have advantages over out of state local/regional publics. Like a Mass kid going to UConn or UNH. I do think we need to credit those SEC and ACC schools like Clemson and Florida State for getting better and becoming viable alternatives to public and private schools up north.

 

[BigTenFan]

A lot depends on the field. You can't reproduce engineering at a state AAU school at a smaller private unless we're talking about MIT or CalTech, Johns Hopkins, Carnegie-Mellon. I'm not really sure about places like RPI and how they're holding up.

In other disciplines, schools are very different and they deliver a very different level of rigor and expertise. They aren't all the same. It should be easier for parents to dig into the differences academically, but as a parent who just went through this process, the discussion of academics on campus tours or even from admissions specialists was next to nil. You have to go through other sources to get that info. USNews ranking of departments isn't helpful either.

I completely agree. You really need to do your due diligence and advocate for your kids. It's a massive investment for families.
Most 17 and 18 year olds can't comprehend the sacrifices that families make to get them in and through school. I have seen far too many parents not get involved in the process- then have their kids deep in debt without good options.There are lots of great schools to choose from- but not all of them deliver the ROI at the same levels.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

Like a Mass kid going to UConn or UNH.

There's a reciprocating agreement that most state schools (and all University of schools) in New England are party to.

My best friend's son is a recent U Maine graduate. His tuition was discounted to almost that of what a Maine resident would have paid.

 

[upstater]

I think we agree on much of the appeal. But they do have advantages over out of state local/regional publics. Like a Mass kid going to UConn or UNH. I do think we need to credit those SEC and ACC schools like Clemson and Florida State for getting better and becoming viable alternatives to public and private schools up north.

What do you mean by getting better?

I know faculty that left both of these schools in recent years and they couldn't abide by the rapid deterioration anymore.

As a prospective student, I can't say that the prospect of less rigor, more parties, bigger schools would not have been very enticing. But I think this is why (I would not have joined a frat) kids are going down there these days.

 

[Chuck]

A lot depends on the field. You can't reproduce engineering at a state AAU school at a smaller private unless we're talking about MIT or CalTech, Johns Hopkins, Carnegie-Mellon. I'm not really sure about places like RPI and how they're holding up.

In other disciplines, schools are very different and they deliver a very different level of rigor and expertise. They aren't all the same. It should be easier for parents to dig into the differences academically, but as a parent who just went through this process, the discussion of academics on campus tours or even from admissions specialists was next to nil. You have to go through other sources to get that info. USNews ranking of departments isn't helpful either.

The Pennsylvania Patriot schools with engineering (Lehigh, Lafayette, Bucknell) seem to be doing well. Still attracting students and job placement seems to be great. Not comparing those to MIT, CalTech, etc., but not every kid that can be a good engineer can get into those schools.

 

[TRest]

There's a reciprocating agreement that most state schools (and all University of schools) in New England are party to.

My best friend's son is a recent U Maine graduate. His tuition was discounted to almost that of what a Maine resident would have paid.

I looked into this a few years ago when my kids were applying. the agreement is mainly for majors that your own state schools don't offer. But UMaine was advertising out of state tuition would equal in-state at UConn a few years ago on billboards and tv commercials here.

 

[HuskyHawk]

There's a reciprocating agreement that most state schools (and all University of schools) in New England are party to.

My best friend's son is a recent U Maine graduate. His tuition was discounted to almost that of what a Maine resident would have paid.

Yes, I'm aware. I have friends who used it with their kids (I told them about it) at UConn. But it has to be a degree not awarded at the school in state. So for a MA kid, something UConn, URI, UNH etc. has that UMass doesn't. It helps kids in Maine, RI, Vermont and NH more than MA or CT kids. Officially you pay 175% of in state tuition.

 

[hank970]

We agree on the midlist privates and this has been actually happening for many years already.

But as for the in-state and out-of-state numbers, I already addressed that in response to you. The higher numbers actually reinforced my point that in-state will always be cheaper than going to an SEC school. I really think the allure is frats/sororities and weather.

I'll grant you that southern weather may be more appealing during much of the school year, but what's the difference between a fraternity or sorority at a southern school and the same organization at a northern one?

 

[upstater]

I'll grant you that southern weather may be more appealing during much of the school year, but what's the difference between a fraternity or sorority at a southern school and the same organization at a northern one?

The culture. Look at the % of students that belong to them up north versus down south. Parties = Frats in the south. Not so in the north. At UConn, 11% of the students are members. At Alabama it's 36%.

 

[CCSU97]

Chin, when you have a little time check out the annual, all in costs of mid-level private schools in the northeast. You won't find many at the price you quoted. Most are 15% - 20% higher.

When my son (recently turned 30) was early in high school I started investigating different schools up here (won't name any as I don't want to offend anyone who may h ave gone to one). I was stunned at the cost of some of the private schools that had run of the mill acceptance standards/academic standing. I can understand a few private schools up here charging a premium rate, but I stated many times "I refuse to pay a premium for mediocrity".

The thing is many of those schools exist solely because of affluent families who feel it is beneath them to send their kid (who couldn't get into a school of choice) to a public university. I can name close to a dozen $90k a year schools up here that won't give a better education than Southern CT or Central CT, but fir the students who attend those schools, a directional state school would dishonor the family name.

Exactly. But the State doesn't invest in these schools to make them a little more attractive.

 

[CCSU97]

Charter Oak and CCSU should be merged.

I would argue UConn Avery Point should can sports as should Manchester CC.

You could make an argument to close WCSU if it gets an enrollment under 2,000 undergraduates.

Overall, the state of CT does a pretty good job with its organization of higher learning. There are a few head scratchers (Charter Oak and CCSU being separate institutions), but overall a solid job.

I have been advocating that for years!!! Charter Oak's former administration building was on our New Britain campus. The State finally agreed to move them out and we now use the building as the CCSU Welcome Center.

CCSU can run that distance-degree, lifelong learning program with ease as a new "College/School" within the existing University structure and strengthen Central's own online and continuing ed programs. But don't kid yourself, UConn administrators and State politicians are strongly against anything like that that doesn't directly benefit UConn.

 

[MUFan in CT]

Can we please drop the Central from CCSU and just call it Connecticut State University already. It sounds so bush league.