Xavier’s Enrollment Challenges

[upstater]

Are your numbers for UConn & UMass in state or out of state? They appear to be very low of they are out of state numbers (which is how it reads).

In-state. We're comparing in-state costs to out-of-state costs.

 

[upstater]

Yeah, I figured I was lowballing the tuition and room and board. OTOH, so many kids are getting grants or scholarships, who knows what the average MSRP really is for many privates.

Regardless, the Ivies are safe, but the smaller schools whose financial outcomes for employment aren't crazy good are going the way of the Dodo. And the northeast is ground zero for small, private schools. Not enough kids coming out of HS and more and more wanting to go south for the college experience.

Enrollment at many of the NESCACs is increasing and so are applications. They are rejecting more students than ever before.

As much as kids watch college football, they also watch Sex Lives of College Girls, and a lot of them are looking for that campus experience. The numbers are up.

If you're talking about non-NESCAC private schools, you're right, but those are deeply discounted already. The NESCACs have 60% of enrolling students paying full price.

 

[upstater]

Those are the out of state numbers. But in state isn't in the 20s. At Bama it is under 12.

Cost of Attendance - Afford | The University of Alabama

Affording college at the University of Alabama

afford.ua.edu

???

I was responding to your post.

You wrote this: "At least here in suburban Boston (I assume CT would be the same) kids coming out of good HS are getting merit money to head south. So much so that it's cheaper than UMass or UConn in state tuition."

You were discussing the costs of in-state schooling in the northeast versus out-of-state costs in the SEC.

That's why I responded with those numbers.

 

[BigTenFan]

I get it. It's not simple and is different for every kid. Auburn is $34 out of state (so is South Carolina). Assume maybe $8k merit and that's $26. Room and board is $17 (I'll even say $20 for that sorority) so 26+20=46. Providence doesn't give much merit, so let's take Fairfield, it's relatively cheaper anyway at $59k for tuition but room and board is $22k. Merit might be about $14k, so $45+22= 67. That's still a $20k a year gap. Even a high quality midwestern school like Purdue is $44 a year out of state with no merit aid.

Most of those big state schools are better than a school like Fairfield, or Sacred Heart, have a vastly more robust alumni network, and are in a region with more job growth. Factor in the cost advantage and that kids and their parents are focusing on STEM and Business rather than liberal arts, and it's a real competitive advantage that is hard to ignore. Worcester Polytechnic is $75k. How do you choose that over Purdue as an engineering student? WPI is ranked #64 for undergrad engineering and Purdue is #8. Georgia Tech is an insane deal as well.

To your point, it's highly individualized. My kid wanted an urban environment. She hated UConn and UNH. Wouldn't even apply. I didn't even take her to Amherst. She also had no idea what she wanted to study, if you do know, that's an advantage. Northeastern was the most expensive option for her (and highest rated) but with Co-op helping to direct her towards a field of study it was a good choice. But loads of her high school classmates at a Catholic HS in metro Boston went to big southern public schools. For many it wasn't money, but warmth, football, Greek life and college fun that appealed.

Sent 2 to Purdue for Engineering. 1 was accepted to WPI - Purdue is half the price, hasn't raised tuition in 12 years. No brainer

 

[HuskyHawk]

???

I was responding to your post.

You wrote this: "At least here in suburban Boston (I assume CT would be the same) kids coming out of good HS are getting merit money to head south. So much so that it's cheaper than UMass or UConn in state tuition."

You were discussing the costs of in-state schooling in the northeast versus out-of-state costs in the SEC.

That's why I responded with those numbers.

But those numbers were wrong. I shouldn't have said cheaper. I should have said comparable. Some of them are getting merit money, obviously not all of them. But the main thrust of this thread isn't those public schools, but the smaller, non-elite (not NESCACs or Ivy or even BU/BC/Northeastern which all are doing well) privates. Xavier isn't even expensive for a private school and is struggling.

 

[UConnJim]

If you analyze Xavier's data, applications have surged but yield has fallen. (10,661 apps in 2015/2016 vs 16,750 apps in 2023/2024) It seems to me that Xavier hasn't figured out how to manage admissions with the changes that the Common App has presented to colleges. They need to figure out how to get more kids who are applying to attend or to find more kids to apply that want to attend.

 

[upstater]

But those numbers were wrong. I shouldn't have said cheaper. I should have said comparable. Some of them are getting merit money, obviously not all of them. But the main thrust of this thread isn't those public schools, but the smaller, non-elite (not NESCACs or Ivy or even BU/BC/Northeastern which all are doing well) privates. Xavier isn't even expensive for a private school and is struggling.

We agree on the midlist privates and this has been actually happening for many years already.

But as for the in-state and out-of-state numbers, I already addressed that in response to you. The higher numbers actually reinforced my point that in-state will always be cheaper than going to an SEC school. I really think the allure is frats/sororities and weather.

 

[upstater]

Sent 2 to Purdue for Engineering. 1 was accepted to WPI - Purdue is half the price, hasn't raised tuition in 12 years. No brainer

A lot depends on the field. You can't reproduce engineering at a state AAU school at a smaller private unless we're talking about MIT or CalTech, Johns Hopkins, Carnegie-Mellon. I'm not really sure about places like RPI and how they're holding up.

In other disciplines, schools are very different and they deliver a very different level of rigor and expertise. They aren't all the same. It should be easier for parents to dig into the differences academically, but as a parent who just went through this process, the discussion of academics on campus tours or even from admissions specialists was next to nil. You have to go through other sources to get that info. USNews ranking of departments isn't helpful either.

 

[HuskyHawk]

We agree on the midlist privates and this has been actually happening for many years already.

But as for the in-state and out-of-state numbers, I already addressed that in response to you. The higher numbers actually reinforced my point that in-state will always be cheaper than going to an SEC school. I really think the allure is frats/sororities and weather.

I think we agree on much of the appeal. But they do have advantages over out of state local/regional publics. Like a Mass kid going to UConn or UNH. I do think we need to credit those SEC and ACC schools like Clemson and Florida State for getting better and becoming viable alternatives to public and private schools up north.

 

[BigTenFan]

A lot depends on the field. You can't reproduce engineering at a state AAU school at a smaller private unless we're talking about MIT or CalTech, Johns Hopkins, Carnegie-Mellon. I'm not really sure about places like RPI and how they're holding up.

In other disciplines, schools are very different and they deliver a very different level of rigor and expertise. They aren't all the same. It should be easier for parents to dig into the differences academically, but as a parent who just went through this process, the discussion of academics on campus tours or even from admissions specialists was next to nil. You have to go through other sources to get that info. USNews ranking of departments isn't helpful either.

I completely agree. You really need to do your due diligence and advocate for your kids. It's a massive investment for families.
Most 17 and 18 year olds can't comprehend the sacrifices that families make to get them in and through school. I have seen far too many parents not get involved in the process- then have their kids deep in debt without good options.There are lots of great schools to choose from- but not all of them deliver the ROI at the same levels.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

Like a Mass kid going to UConn or UNH.

There's a reciprocating agreement that most state schools (and all University of schools) in New England are party to.

My best friend's son is a recent U Maine graduate. His tuition was discounted to almost that of what a Maine resident would have paid.

 

[upstater]

I think we agree on much of the appeal. But they do have advantages over out of state local/regional publics. Like a Mass kid going to UConn or UNH. I do think we need to credit those SEC and ACC schools like Clemson and Florida State for getting better and becoming viable alternatives to public and private schools up north.

What do you mean by getting better?

I know faculty that left both of these schools in recent years and they couldn't abide by the rapid deterioration anymore.

As a prospective student, I can't say that the prospect of less rigor, more parties, bigger schools would not have been very enticing. But I think this is why (I would not have joined a frat) kids are going down there these days.

 

[Chuck]

A lot depends on the field. You can't reproduce engineering at a state AAU school at a smaller private unless we're talking about MIT or CalTech, Johns Hopkins, Carnegie-Mellon. I'm not really sure about places like RPI and how they're holding up.

In other disciplines, schools are very different and they deliver a very different level of rigor and expertise. They aren't all the same. It should be easier for parents to dig into the differences academically, but as a parent who just went through this process, the discussion of academics on campus tours or even from admissions specialists was next to nil. You have to go through other sources to get that info. USNews ranking of departments isn't helpful either.

The Pennsylvania Patriot schools with engineering (Lehigh, Lafayette, Bucknell) seem to be doing well. Still attracting students and job placement seems to be great. Not comparing those to MIT, CalTech, etc., but not every kid that can be a good engineer can get into those schools.

 

[TRest]

There's a reciprocating agreement that most state schools (and all University of schools) in New England are party to.

My best friend's son is a recent U Maine graduate. His tuition was discounted to almost that of what a Maine resident would have paid.

I looked into this a few years ago when my kids were applying. the agreement is mainly for majors that your own state schools don't offer. But UMaine was advertising out of state tuition would equal in-state at UConn a few years ago on billboards and tv commercials here.

 

[HuskyHawk]

There's a reciprocating agreement that most state schools (and all University of schools) in New England are party to.

My best friend's son is a recent U Maine graduate. His tuition was discounted to almost that of what a Maine resident would have paid.

Yes, I'm aware. I have friends who used it with their kids (I told them about it) at UConn. But it has to be a degree not awarded at the school in state. So for a MA kid, something UConn, URI, UNH etc. has that UMass doesn't. It helps kids in Maine, RI, Vermont and NH more than MA or CT kids. Officially you pay 175% of in state tuition.

 

[hank970]

We agree on the midlist privates and this has been actually happening for many years already.

But as for the in-state and out-of-state numbers, I already addressed that in response to you. The higher numbers actually reinforced my point that in-state will always be cheaper than going to an SEC school. I really think the allure is frats/sororities and weather.

I'll grant you that southern weather may be more appealing during much of the school year, but what's the difference between a fraternity or sorority at a southern school and the same organization at a northern one?

 

[upstater]

I'll grant you that southern weather may be more appealing during much of the school year, but what's the difference between a fraternity or sorority at a southern school and the same organization at a northern one?

The culture. Look at the % of students that belong to them up north versus down south. Parties = Frats in the south. Not so in the north. At UConn, 11% of the students are members. At Alabama it's 36%.

 

[CCSU97]

Chin, when you have a little time check out the annual, all in costs of mid-level private schools in the northeast. You won't find many at the price you quoted. Most are 15% - 20% higher.

When my son (recently turned 30) was early in high school I started investigating different schools up here (won't name any as I don't want to offend anyone who may h ave gone to one). I was stunned at the cost of some of the private schools that had run of the mill acceptance standards/academic standing. I can understand a few private schools up here charging a premium rate, but I stated many times "I refuse to pay a premium for mediocrity".

The thing is many of those schools exist solely because of affluent families who feel it is beneath them to send their kid (who couldn't get into a school of choice) to a public university. I can name close to a dozen $90k a year schools up here that won't give a better education than Southern CT or Central CT, but fir the students who attend those schools, a directional state school would dishonor the family name.

Exactly. But the State doesn't invest in these schools to make them a little more attractive.

 

[CCSU97]

Charter Oak and CCSU should be merged.

I would argue UConn Avery Point should can sports as should Manchester CC.

You could make an argument to close WCSU if it gets an enrollment under 2,000 undergraduates.

Overall, the state of CT does a pretty good job with its organization of higher learning. There are a few head scratchers (Charter Oak and CCSU being separate institutions), but overall a solid job.

I have been advocating that for years!!! Charter Oak's former administration building was on our New Britain campus. The State finally agreed to move them out and we now use the building as the CCSU Welcome Center.

CCSU can run that distance-degree, lifelong learning program with ease as a new "College/School" within the existing University structure and strengthen Central's own online and continuing ed programs. But don't kid yourself, UConn administrators and State politicians are strongly against anything like that that doesn't directly benefit UConn.

 

[MUFan in CT]

Can we please drop the Central from CCSU and just call it Connecticut State University already. It sounds so bush league.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

Can we please drop the Central from CCSU and just call it Connecticut State University already. It sounds so bush league.

From what I've been told for a couple decades, both SCSU & CCSU believe they should be CSU and the state doesn't want to distinguish one as being ahead of the other.

 

[Duncan Idaho]

Charter Oak and CCSU should be merged.

I would argue UConn Avery Point should can sports as should Manchester CC.

You could make an argument to close WCSU if it gets an enrollment under 2,000 undergraduates.

Overall, the state of CT does a pretty good job with its organization of higher learning. There are a few head scratchers (Charter Oak and CCSU being separate institutions), but overall a solid job.

Avery Point athletics is self-funding. Through private donations which also can be made from the foundation app. and rentals from the pool {local high schools' swimming) and gym for things like volleyball tournaments and other facility rentals. etc. AD can't allocate to one and not the others.

 

[CCSU97]

From what I've been told for a couple decades, both SCSU & CCSU believe they should be CSU and the state doesn't want to distinguish one as being ahead of the other.

Central is and always will be the "flagship' of the CSU. It was established in 1849 (older than UConn) at New Britain. Willimantic and New Haven, and Danbury were all once 3-year units of the old Bachelors-granting Teachers College of Connecticut. The issue isn't among the campuses as much as you think, especially when the leadership was in New Britain co-located on the CCSU campus. The old CSU System was always run out of CCSU's Main Administrative building before moving to Hartford.

The biggest challenge has aways been THE STATE OF CONNECTICUT and UConn. Gov. Malloy created the dysfunction Board of Regents which merges the old CSU Board of Trustees with the Communicty College System. UConn alumni/supporters in the General Assembly don't want a competing university system because it would put a portion of their State funding at risk. Not to mention that local officials (Danbury) don't want to lose the campus and private universities like Hartford, Bridgeport, New Haven, Sacred Heart, Quinnipiac also lobby through local leaders to minimize CSU investment as their own growth in enrollment is an alternative to CSU campuses.

---

The State and UConn have held CCSU back at every opportunity. CCSU headcount over time:

1975 - 13,471
1985 - 13,368
1995 - 11,752
2005 - 12,315
2015 - 12,086
2025 - 11,265

Now go look at the trends at UConn, Quinnipiac, Sacred Heart and see their growth. Simple fact is the State refuses to invest in Central and over the decades everyone else was able to grow. The State put all their eggs in one basket (UConn) and have let the CSU system fall behind everyone.

*** In 1990, UConn's total headcount was 18K, by 2020 it had grown to 24K

CCSU was literally the 6th public teacher's college established in the entire United States. Connecticut was once an innovative leader in higher education.