Xavier’s Enrollment Challenges

[Chin Diesel]

I've never really understood why a lot of those schools still exist. Colleges (be they state or private) need to show their value. Value does not always mean cheapest. But poorly funded private schools tend to have the negatives of both big state schools and smaller private schools, without the positives of either. Why would a kid spend a dollar more to go to Caldwell College over Montclair State University (both near each other in NJ).

That being said, well funded, national private schools will continue to be fine. It's understandable why a New Jersey kid would choose to go to Franklin & Marshall (good, but maybe not "elite") over Penn State. The price difference is nominal (especially if you need financial aid) and they offer a very different experience.

A problem with the Big East Catholic schools is that outside Villanova and Georgetown (and maybe Providence), they don't give a lot of reason for a non-local kid to go there. And, if you're local, you're probably better off at an in-state public that is a fraction of the cost. Seton Hall is not a better school than many of the NJ state schools.

Going to a small, private school in the Northeast was a commodity. You could say you got a degree from a place few people go to.

Eventually, and I'd say correctly, people realized there wasn't enough value for the price paid. And yes, they should go away when enrollments are dropping.

As others have already mentioned, plenty of these kids in the northeast and mid-Atlantic regions are realizing they can go to a big southern state school for the same price as in-state tuition in the north and a helluva lot cheaper than any private school in the north. And the income outcomes for life after college are comparable. And they get to party it up in way better atmospheres.

Biggest downside is these kids nowadays won't have the joys of sneaking kegs in to dorm rooms and having a party with out getting the RA's and campus police involved.

 

[Chuck]

Going to a small, private school in the Northeast was a commodity. You could say you got a degree from a place few people go to.

Eventually, and I'd say correctly, people realized there wasn't enough value for the price paid. And yes, they should go away when enrollments are dropping.

As others have already mentioned, plenty of these kids in the northeast and mid-Atlantic regions are realizing they can go to a big southern state school for the same price as in-state tuition in the north and a helluva lot cheaper than any private school in the north. And the income outcomes for life after college are comparable. And they get to party it up in way better atmospheres.

Biggest downside is these kids nowadays won't have the joys of sneaking kegs in to dorm rooms and having a party with out getting the RA's and campus police involved.

I somewhat agree. To be clear... this isn't me crapping on any universities. Just mentioning what I've seen in my north Jersey county. Those southern schools are killing it with kids that would've gone to a mediocre public or private school in the past. Schools like URI and WVU were big northeast options for kids that didn't get into Rutgers, Penn State or others. Now, those kids are regularly going to southern schools. We haven't had any kids go to Bama/USC/Tennessee, etc. over the top public or private schools no matter the price difference. But, my town is probably a bit sheltered.

Re the keggers... my kids in northeast schools are getting plenty of access to alcohol and weed. Unfortunately, coke is making a comeback also. My son was written up twice in 2 years and the RA threw them out without submitting (as a warning) in both cases. In both cases, he was an idiot and would've been written up in my early 90s UConn days.

Keep in mind also, a lot of those private schools give tremendous financial aid. My kid's very expensive private school would be cheaper than Rutgers in state if I made less than $200k.

 

[Kolumbo]

Perhaps some of the very small privates will always be in demand. Many people simply don't want the large university atmosphere. They want the small private schools closer to home which are more like a continuation of high school. Schools where they have a chance to play DIII sports too.

 

[WrenchFan69]

Perhaps some of the very small privates will always be in demand. Many people simply don't want the large university atmosphere. They want the small private schools closer to home which are more like a continuation of high school. Schools where they have a chance to play DIII sports too.

The top small private schools will always exist. It will just consolidate where the bottomfeeders continue to drop off.

 

[huskymedic]

Going to a small, private school in the Northeast was a commodity. You could say you got a degree from a place few people go to.

Eventually, and I'd say correctly, people realized there wasn't enough value for the price paid. And yes, they should go away when enrollments are dropping.

As others have already mentioned, plenty of these kids in the northeast and mid-Atlantic regions are realizing they can go to a big southern state school for the same price as in-state tuition in the north and a helluva lot cheaper than any private school in the north. And the income outcomes for life after college are comparable. And they get to party it up in way better atmospheres.

Biggest downside is these kids nowadays won't have the joys of sneaking kegs in to dorm rooms and having a party with out getting the RA's and campus police involved.

To the point raised: Why young Americans are shunning elite universities for the Deep South

 

[History Geek]

Going to a small, private school in the Northeast was a commodity. You could say you got a degree from a place few people go to.

Eventually, and I'd say correctly, people realized there wasn't enough value for the price paid. And yes, they should go away when enrollments are dropping.

As others have already mentioned, plenty of these kids in the northeast and mid-Atlantic regions are realizing they can go to a big southern state school for the same price as in-state tuition in the north and a helluva lot cheaper than any private school in the north. And the income outcomes for life after college are comparable. And they get to party it up in way better atmospheres.

Biggest downside is these kids nowadays won't have the joys of sneaking kegs in to dorm rooms and having a party with out getting the RA's and campus police involved.

I teach in a public high school in the New Haven area. Kids going to BIG SEC state schools is definitely a growing trend, and the reason mentioned here is Reason #1.

 

[jllevin79]

I teach in a public high school in the New Haven area. Kids going to BIG SEC state schools is definitely a growing trend, and the reason mentioned here is Reason #1.

I blame TikTok. They see these videos of kids partying on game day, sorority dance clips, etc. and want to be part of the crowd. My daughter is senior, staying up north for sports, but all of her friends are looking to go down south to big state schools.

 

[ZooCougar]

I blame TikTok. They see these videos of kids partying on game day, sorority dance clips, etc. and want to be part of the crowd. My daughter is senior, staying up north for sports, but all of her friends are looking to go down south to big state schools.

Yup. The university/campus culture down there is really attractive. Social life is a priority over everything else.

 

[Chin Diesel]

Yup. The university/campus culture down there is really attractive. Social life is a priority over everything else.

With grade inflation and getting a "B" at a minimum if you just show up and complete assignments regardless of what school you attend, why not?

I'm finishing up a Master's in Education and the amount of typos and poor grammar, not just on the weekly message boards, but assignments we pass between us students for review and comment, is appalling.

(Yes, I realize, I have to make at least one grammatical mistake in a comment about other's grammar).

 

[ZooCougar]

 

[ZooCougar]

With grade inflation and getting a "B" at a minimum if you just show up and complete assignments regardless of what school you attend, why not?

I'm finishing up a Master's in Education and the amount of typos and poor grammar, not just on the weekly message boards, but assignments we pass between us students for review and comment, is appalling.

(Yes, I realize, I have to make at least one grammatical mistake in a comment about other's grammar).

No typos when they are using their internet slang though.

It’s hard to write when you can’t lean on AI and Grammerly.

 

[JwittersPAC]

Wanting to go to a small Private college has traditionally been a very New England (also include NY and NJ) thing to do (excluding the Ivy League). If you travel through the midwest, South, and west most people consider going to their state university as their top college choice.

 

[CL82]

With grade inflation and getting a "B" at a minimum if you just show up and complete assignments regardless of what school you attend, why not?

I'm finishing up a Master's in Education and the amount of typos and poor grammar, not just on the weekly message boards, but assignments we pass between us students for review and comment, is appalling.

(Yes, I realize, I have to make at least one grammatical mistake in a comment about other's grammar).

A friend of mine was talking about teaching at the college level. He says that it's a completely different animal than when we went to school.

 

[JwittersPAC]

A friend of mine was talking about teaching at the college level. He says that it's a completely different animal than when we went to school.

What courses does he teach?

 

[CL82]

What courses does he teach?

Lol, you know, I never asked. Given his background, I would suspect it would be STEM related.

I've heard the same thing from others as well. One comment was that students mindsets had changed about personal accountability. Another was the good observation that it's the natural inclination of professors, particularly adjunct professors, to build their expectations from their last higher education experience, which, for the vast majority would not be undergrad. The comments I've heard is that the combination of those things, lower individual student, accountability, and unrealistic expectations for adjunct professors create a conflict of expectation of what the college experience should be.

 

[JwittersPAC]

Lol, you know, I never asked. Given his background, I would suspect it would be STEM related.

I've heard the same thing from others as well. One comment was that students mindsets had changed about personal accountability. Another was the good observation that it's the natural inclination of professors, particularly adjunct professors, to build their expectations from their last higher education experience, which, for the vast majority would not be undergrad. The comments I've heard is that the combination of those things, lower individual student, accountability, and unrealistic expectations for adjunct professors create a conflict of expectation of what the college experience should be.

Interesting to hear. I majored in applied mathematics.

 

[Exit 4]

I teach in a public high school in the New Haven area. Kids going to BIG SEC state schools is definitely a growing trend, and the reason mentioned here is Reason #1.

Its a thing all the way at the bottom of the state too. Particularly the B+ student with a 1200-1370 SAT that decides against staying home with UConn. UVM, URI, UNH, UMass, Providence, etc have - no chance. Kids don't even think one second to apply to any of those anymore.

There is a shift afoot on higher Ed away from the north. These mid and lower tier private colleges north of DC are going to be folding fast in another decade. And the notion that serious college and the best college remains on the coasts or in the northeast will be forgotten. Most employed by higher Ed don't see it coming. By that, what I mean is that they know about the demographic crunch, but they are not paying attention to the sea change in attitudes about the quality aspects. The southern schools are losing their stigma as unserious institutions.

 

[CL82]

Interesting to hear. I majored in applied mathematics.

When did you graduate? I suspect it may be at least somewhat major related, with more demanding majors having more accountability. That's just a guess on my part though.

 

[JwittersPAC]

When did you graduate? I suspect it may be at least somewhat major related, with more demanding majors having more accountability. That's just a guess on my part though.

Graduated in 1989.

 

[Chin Diesel]

Its a thing all the way at the bottom of the state too. Particularly the B+ student with a 1200-1370 SAT that decides against staying home with UConn. UVM, URI, UNH, UMass, Providence, etc have - no chance. Kids don't even think one second to apply to any of those anymore.

There is a shift afoot on higher Ed away from the north. These mid and lower tier private colleges north of DC are going to be folding fast in another decade. And the notion that serious college and the best college remains on the coasts or in the northeast will be forgotten. Most employed by higher Ed don't see it coming. By that, what I mean is that they know about the demographic crunch, but they are not paying attention to the sea change in attitudes about the quality aspects. The southern schools are losing their stigma as unserious institutions.

I think the bean counters at the universities have been well aware of the already existing, and soon to be worse, student shortage. For a while the idea was to draw from growth states and soak up the out of state tuition, and then international students.

Now, the shell game has run its course and universities have run out of stateside students, and international students are leveling off.

Doesn't help that almost everything you need to learn at a university is available online and the pace of workplace knowledge is making a college education less valuable to many.

To me the bigger gap has been the degrees universities have been awarding as compared to what the domestic marketplace needs for skills and knowledge.

 

[Vowelguy]

It's not just the Big East Catholic schools that are having enrollment problems. There is a shrinking college-age population.

Especially in the Northeast & Midwest. This is why I think the B1G needs to add UNC or some other southern school(s). Need more proximity to both students and recruits.

 

[Vowelguy]

Small, private, non-elite colleges are going to go extinct. It'll start at the bottom but work its way pretty high up that ladder I figure. In CT, I bet Mitchell and Albertus Magnus will close by 2035. Possibly U of Bridgeport as well

Yeah largely agree. Why would anyone go to a super-expensive mediocre private school when there's likely a more modest-ly priced, same-quality public school.

 

[Slasher]

Applications to Xavier have surged over the past decade, up 60% (due to the common app), but the yield of accepted students has plummeted by about half. Oddly, SAT scores have gone up over time. Acceptance rates are in the high 80s, so they need to figure out how to improve their yield. Cincinnati, a direct competitor, has grown enrollment as they have increased their acceptance rate to the high 80%. And I would assume their addition to the Big 12 has increased their appeal to students.

Xavier gives automatic enrollment to all Cincinnati catholic school graduates now and they still are seeing a dip in attendance. They're in deep, deep trouble.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

Xavier is suffering the same fate many 2nd and worse tier privates are going to face. They have priced themselves out of their market. Tuition is about 50k, just short of 70k if you live on campus. It offers a good education, but at those prices there are other options. And with the pending demographic cliff many medium and small privates will merge or vanish over the next two decades.

I do believe Xavier will figure it out, but others won't.

 

[Chuck]

Xavier is suffering the same fate many 2nd and worse tier privates are going to face. They have priced themselves out of their market. Tuition is about 50k, just short of 70k if you live on campus. It offers a good education, but at those prices there are other options. And with the pending demographic cliff many medium and small privates will merge or vanish over the next two decades.

I do believe Xavier will figure it out, but others won't.

Just a quick note for those that haven't gone through the college application / decision process recently. We're mixing arguments in this thread. Many are saying that private schools will fail because they are too expensive, but also acknowledging how many northern kids are going to southern public schools instead.

Private schools need to make themselves competitive with out of state public school costs and attraction. Xavier isn't far off on cost, but I don't know if Xavier is attractive as a school for kids not from OH. For comparison, here is Xavier vs. a couple options.

• Xavier tuition, fees, housing, meal plan: $67,256.
• UConn is $58,780.
• Clemson is $57,600.
• Alabama $50,458 (and that's not for the awesome greek houses or dorms)
• Georgia is $44,420 (bargain)
• Michigan is $80,208 (and $5k more for juniors and seniors).

EDIT: Also adding that private schools are generally more generous with merit and financial aid (other than Alabama that is throwing money at high achievers to improve their student body). I'd be surprised if the actual cost of attendance at Xavier for a strong candidate isn't the same or less than the out of state public schools.

 

[Kolumbo]

I'll play devil's advocate for a moment. Yes, many small schools may not survive. I think we are underestimating the number of kids who want to go to a small school, who want to play sports at the DIII level, and who come from families who like the "prestige" of going to a small private school. I know many kids are not getting into UConn these days and that is just one reason they are looking south, among others of course.

 

[Vowelguy]

Just a quick note for those that haven't gone through the college application / decision process recently. We're mixing arguments in this thread. Many are saying that private schools will fail because they are too expensive, but also acknowledging how many northern kids are going to southern public schools instead.

Private schools need to make themselves competitive with out of state public school costs and attraction. Xavier isn't far off on cost, but I don't know if Xavier is attractive as a school for kids not from OH. For comparison, here is Xavier vs. a couple options.

• Xavier tuition, fees, housing, meal plan: $67,256.
• UConn is $58,780.
• Clemson is $57,600.
• Alabama $50,458 (and that's not for the awesome greek houses or dorms)
• Georgia is $44,420 (bargain)
• Michigan is $80,208 (and $5k more for juniors and seniors).

EDIT: Also adding that private schools are generally more generous with merit and financial aid (other than Alabama that is throwing money at high achievers to improve their student body). I'd be surprised if the actual cost of attendance at Xavier for a strong candidate isn't the same or less than the out of state public schools.

I randomly picked a private school in CT and here's what I came up with ...

University of New Haven: 76th in US News (Regional Universities North), Tuition: 50k
Southern CT: 64th in same category, Tuition: 13k (27k out of state)
Eastern: 66th, 14k (18k)
FitchburgSt (MA): 72nd, 12k (18k)
Central: 76th, 13k (17k)

How is this sustainable for UNH?

Yes I know I'm looking at sticker price and not the actual price being paid. The former is easier to find quickly online.

 

[Chuck]

I randomly picked a private school in CT and here's what I came up with ...

University of New Haven: 76th in US News (Regional Universities North), Tuition: 50k
Southern CT: 64th in same category, Tuition: 13k (27k out of state)
Eastern: 66th, 14k (18k)
FitchburgSt (MA): 72nd, 12k (18k)
Central: 76th, 13k (17k)

How is this sustainable for UNH?

Yes I know I'm looking at sticker price and not the actual price being paid. The former is easier to find quickly online.

I don't think we're really disagreeing. I don't think schools like UNH can compete directly with a directional state school like Southern or Eastern CT. I'm assuming that the latter are just as good (probably better) than UNH academically and I doubt UNH offers anything extra as far as student life or opportunities. I think schools like UNH are in trouble.

I'm looking more at a school like Fairfield University. I don't know much about Fairfield other than a lot of kids from our town go there. I wouldn't call it "elite." About $79k before any aid. Ranked 139th in National Universities. If a kid from NJ has no interest in a NJ state school, then he's comparing Fairfield vs out of state universities (like UConn) and the $20k per year difference may get shrunk by aid and it's a totally different academic/life experience.

There are plenty of people that have plenty of money. Their kid won't want to go to UNH or Eastern CT. They'll go out of state and that's who the private schools need to compete for.

DISCLOSURE: I have two kids in non-elite (I use the term "elite" sparingly) private colleges so I'm biased. I'm acknowledge I'm overpaying.

 

[Chin Diesel]

I'll play devil's advocate for a moment. Yes, many small schools may not survive. I think we are underestimating the number of kids who want to go to a small school, who want to play sports at the DIII level, and who come from families who like the "prestige" of going to a small private school. I know many kids are not getting into UConn these days and that is just one reason they are looking south, among others of course.

Lol. That is largely what this discussion is based on. Those kids don't exist in large enough numbers any more.

 

[John]

I don't think we're really disagreeing. I don't think schools like UNH can compete directly with a directional state school like Southern or Eastern CT. I'm assuming that the latter are just as good (probably better) than UNH academically and I doubt UNH offers anything extra as far as student life or opportunities. I think schools like UNH are in trouble.

I'm looking more at a school like Fairfield University. I don't know much about Fairfield other than a lot of kids from our town go there. I wouldn't call it "elite." About $79k before any aid. Ranked 139th in National Universities. If a kid from NJ has no interest in a NJ state school, then he's comparing Fairfield vs out of state universities (like UConn) and the $20k per year difference may get shrunk by aid and it's a totally different academic/life experience.

There are plenty of people that have plenty of money. Their kid won't want to go to UNH or Eastern CT. They'll go out of state and that's who the private schools need to compete for.

DISCLOSURE: I have two kids in non-elite (I use the term "elite" sparingly) private colleges so I'm biased. I'm acknowledge I'm overpaying.

Fairfield has gotten much more competitive on admissions in the past few years, I believe they're down to a 25% acceptance rate these days.