Why no talk of death penalty for Penn State?

[nelsonmuntz]

Drops the hammer on an agent for buying a graduating RB a suit, but doesn't think raping kids is that big a deal. 3 year death penalty is not enough for these guys.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaaf-...port-joe-paterno-curtis-enis-jeff-nalley.html

 

[2Infinity]

That's about it if anything at all. Their perception is horrible but they are having a great recruiting class. I guess the recruits don't care.

A self-imposed post season ban would ONLY occur if they were led to believe they almost had no choice. It have to seem almost inevitable that the NCAA would come down on them hard if they did NOT impose such a ban. Otherwise, I can't see them taking such a drastic step. But I think the NCAA will want more than that for such an egregious set of violations and for fostering an environment in which they were allowed to continue for years.

As for the recruits, I can see a situation where the new coaching staff is selling the kids on the great "opportunity" they have to come in and turn the program around. Bring back the program's great historical "respect"....that they have the chance to do this! In other words, forget about the past, just look forward. Additionally, they are most likely minimizing any sanctions that could be imposed against the university, that they shouldn't impact the program much at all. By telling the recruits this, it would suggest that they have no intention of self-imposing any penalty.

Finally....what about the recruits decisions to go there...to WANT to go there? Would you want your son to go to an institution which condones such behavior? I wouldn't! What about the players and families responsibility in all of this? You have to wonder about THEIR morals in pursuing and accepting a PSU offer at this point in time!

 

[Waquoit]

That's just an added benefit of this, the exposure that PSU was always full of crap. They were always just another football factory and that "doing it the right way" crap they used to sell was all BS. They were just as dirty as anyone else, the difference is that they were best at keeping the dirty laundry in-house. Saint JoePa took care of that. Rick Reilly has a good mea culpa column here, admits to being taken in by JoePa's act.

 

[noeynox]

If it wasn't for the awful human tragedy involved, the Penn State is almost comedic. For years they looked down their noses at how other programs "did it", holding themselves as the model. I've mentioned this in other posts, and so does this article, everything at PSU is in question.

 

[Waquoit]

...everything at PSU is in question.

Including their university press. A B level outfit, at the same level as the University of Hawaii.

 

[ChrisSmith]

Drops the hammer on an agent for buying a graduating RB a suit, but doesn't think raping kids is that big a deal. 3 year death penalty is not enough for these guys.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaaf-...port-joe-paterno-curtis-enis-jeff-nalley.html

For which guys? Paterno? Spanier? Sandusky? Curley? Schultz?
Fired/dead. Fired. Jail for life. Fired/lung cancer. Retired.

And when you mention the death penalty, for which athletic programs? I don't see why football would be singled out - guess you would have to give the death penalty for all sports teams.

Unfortunately for you, there's no real basis for the NCAA to act. This is a criminal and civil matter - the law deals out it's own repercussions. As it should. When the NCAA acts, they act because there is no one else to.

Let's be honest, you want PSU to get the death penalty so they don't take the CT prospects they want.

 

[upstater]

It's relevant in the simplest sense. There is no defense, but you have somehow managed to try to defend
Penn State for 9 months, and all you do is constantly deflect like in the quoted post.

I will stop reading for your sake - but why? Why do you have tens of thousands of words posted in defense.

I don't. It's only your twisted imagination that sees that.

 

[upstater]

Yup, it's everyone else but you who is deranged or wanting. You and Bill James, that is.

When someone writes the exact 100% opposite of what I wrote, that's derangement.

If you have something of substance to say, say it. Show me where I said what ZLS claimed. If you want to lie, then you're a liar.

 

[06029]

For which guys? Paterno? Spanier? Sandusky? Curley? Schultz?
Fired/dead. Fired. Jail for life. Fired/lung cancer. Retired.

And when you mention the death penalty, for which athletic programs? I don't see why football would be singled out - guess you would have to give the death penalty for all sports teams.

Unfortunately for you, there's no real basis for the NCAA to act. This is a criminal and civil matter - the law deals out it's own repercussions. As it should. When the NCAA acts, they act because there is no one else to.

Let's be honest, you want PSU to get the death penalty so they don't take the CT prospects they want.

Since the Freeh report suggests that there was a cover up/hiding of all evidence/lack of reporting a criminal activity, all within the context of protecting the FB program and sponsored by the head coach, AD and president of the university, it does become a matter the NCAA can look into. Coaches and AD's are within the reach and jurisdiction of the NCAA. Lack of institutional control is one of the items they can charge that jumps to mind. And since this a FB only issue, that is the only sport that needs to be considered.

I have been undecided on the death penalty aspect. But if I were a PSU Trustee, I would advocate a self imposed a 2 to 5 year downgrade of FB to include no bowl games, no TV appearances and all revenue for those years (gross revenue, not the net) into a fund to be distributed to groups that help abused children. This is all outside of the criminal and civil penalties that will be imposed on the university. Those will dwarf the revenue above. The self imposed thing will keep the B1G together and not create a giant scheduling hole but it will severely and appropriately impact the FB culture as PSU.

Either that, or the NCAA closes the FB program for 2-5 years and let the B1G decide what is the best way to deal with their PSU issue.

 

[SubbaBub]

I would suggest that some of you voluntarily ban your paychecks this.month because, let's be honest, you've spent a lot of company time on the boneyard this month, let alone what you do in the lavatory....eeesh.

I'm fascinated by then relentless call to punish innocent people in order make yourselves feel better by venting outrage at what is essentially corporate letterhead. If you believe the Freeh Report, those involved have been removed to the jurisdiction of the.justice system.

If your concern is that PSU the organization should suffer some.monetary penalty, the civil court system will surely see to that.

If your concern is to prevent this from happening again, then not playing football games does nothing to advance that goal, nor does it send any 'message' to anyone.

If your concerned that the NCAA should have something say about one of it's member organizations behaving so reprehensibly, then finally we can agree.

As I've posted elsewhere, the NCAA should place the entire University on two years probation, to implement the governance reforms outlined in the Freeh Report to sufficiently assure that no small group of people can commit future crimes of this magnitude in the name of the university. Failure to do so would result in a ban from participation in all NCAA sponsored activities until compliance is achieved. The two year window is to prevent a hastily thrown together response.

Anyone else have anything productive they'd like to see result from this other than blind vengeance?


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[Palatine]

Do you agree with this statement?

The worst scandal in college football history deserves the worst penalty the NCAA can give. They gave it to SMU for winning without regard for morals. They should give it to Penn State for the same thing. The only difference is, at Penn State they didn't pay for it with Corvettes. They paid for it with lives.

 

[Carl Spackler]

I would suggest that some of you voluntarily ban your paychecks this.month because, let's be honest, you've spent a lot of company time on the boneyard this month, let alone what you do in the lavatory....eeesh.

I'm fascinated by then relentless call to punish innocent people in order make yourselves feel better by venting outrage at what is essentially corporate letterhead. If you believe the Freeh Report, those involved have been removed to the jurisdiction of the.justice system.

If your concern is that PSU the organization should suffer some.monetary penalty, the civil court system will surely see to that.

If your concern is to prevent this from happening again, then not playing football games does nothing to advance that goal, nor does it send any 'message' to anyone.

If your concerned that the NCAA should have something say about one of it's member organizations behaving so reprehensibly, then finally we can agree.

As I've posted elsewhere, the NCAA should place the entire University on two years probation, to implement the governance reforms outlined in the Freeh Report to sufficiently assure that no small group of people can commit future crimes of this magnitude in the name of the university. Failure to do so would result in a ban from participation in all NCAA sponsored activities until compliance is achieved. The two year window is to prevent a hastily thrown together response.

Anyone else have anything productive they'd like to see result from this other than blind vengeance?


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Assuming a lot in there. What innocents are being punished? Punished by shutting down the football program? the players? they'd have the inconvenience of having to transfer, but they'd still be able to compete on full scholarship. The coaches? they'd need to find work elsewhere, not something unusual for the coachign profession. The support staff? Yes, I suppose they'd be hurt a bit. Collateral damage.

THe solution you present does nothing to change the culture of the community that led to the absolute corruption at the time, and if you've paid attention to any of the marathon discussion I had with upstater last week, you'd know that the corruption, and culture of absolute power and cover up and disregard for authority other than their own postions, extending to business deals in the state, the state government up through the AG's office and to the governor - ALL corrupt.

The only way the corruption of the leadership of that PSU culture changes, is if the people that leadership in the BOT, in the state government, in the athletic department, changes. THe only way you change leadership, is if the people being represented demand it.

The only way the people of PSU, and the people of Pennsylvania will demand immediate, thorough and acomplete restructure and cleaning out of the corrupt leadership, is if the football program is suspended.

It's a sad, and unfortunate commentary, that football, and the lack of it, is very likely the most important factor in motivating change at PSU in the culture of the leadership, rather than exposing and correcting all the corrupt dealings that Upstater described in that other discussion.

But it is what it is.

Shut down the football program, and the millions, millions fans of PSU will demand, immediate, and complete change of the culture.

Unless the innocents being punished, you describe are the fans, and not the children at the hands of Sandusky, while everybody in the culture of that leadership knew. Among all the other corruption.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Since the Freeh report suggests that there was a cover up/hiding of all evidence/lack of reporting a criminal activity, all within the context of protecting the FB program and sponsored by the head coach, AD and president of the university, it does become a matter the NCAA can look into. Coaches and AD's are within the reach and jurisdiction of the NCAA. Lack of institutional control is one of the items they can charge that jumps to mind. And since this a FB only issue, that is the only sport that needs to be considered.

I have been undecided on the death penalty aspect. But if I were a PSU Trustee, I would advocate a self imposed a 2 to 5 year downgrade of FB to include no bowl games, no TV appearances and all revenue for those years (gross revenue, not the net) into a fund to be distributed to groups that help abused children. This is all outside of the criminal and civil penalties that will be imposed on the university. Those will dwarf the revenue above. The self imposed thing will keep the B1G together and not create a giant scheduling hole but it will severely and appropriately impact the FB culture as PSU.

Either that, or the NCAA closes the FB program for 2-5 years and let the B1G decide what is the best way to deal with their PSU issue.

I agree zip code.

I see no evidence, NONE, that Penn State leadership would do somethign like this. I see BOT members talking in the media, very concerned, about how to handle the image of Joe Paterno's legacy on campus as top priority.

 

[SubbaBub]

The only way the corruption the leadership of that PSU culture changes, is if the people that leadership in the BOT, in the state government, in the athletic department, changes. THe only way you change leadership, is if the people being represented demand it.

You don't need to convince me about power and corruption in our institutions. I'm merely suggesting that you attack it.correctly and in the areas where it will be the most effective without the "collateral damage." While not equivalent to the ultimate crimes in this case, people losing their jobs or disrupting their education can be quite traumatic, and does nothing postive other than salve the irritation of the mob.

Referencing your above statement, the leadership of the BOT, the University, and the AD have changed completely with more changes likely. As for the State, there is an election coming up. I personally would like to know more about the Governor's connections to this.

Shutting down the University or even the football program only causes collateral damage and should only be done if either fails to address what needs to be done.

If you've ever been there you know it supports the economy of the entire area. A large chunk of it survives on the eight football weekends a year. People talk about $$$, but what we are really talking about are the livelihoods of the people who live and work there.

The claim that this was done to protect the Univ and FB is convenient for a lot of people. Both would have endured just fine. The coverup was made solely to protect the participants.

Today, there are two choices. Continue to do more harm or try to make the situation better. I prefer to focus on the latter now that those responsible are being held accountable.

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[upstater]

Do you agree with this statement?

The worst scandal in college football history deserves the worst penalty the NCAA can give. They gave it to SMU for winning without regard for morals. They should give it to Penn State for the same thing. The only difference is, at Penn State they didn't pay for it with Corvettes. They paid for it with lives.

People don't read. On every single page for the last 5 pages I've made my statement.

 

[Carl Spackler]

You don't need to convince me about power and corruption in our institutions. I'm merely suggesting that you attack it.correctly and in the areas where it will be the most effective without the "collateral damage." While not equivalent to the ultimate crimes in this case, people losing their jobs or disrupting their education can be quite traumatic, and does nothing postive other than salve the irritation of the mob.

Referencing your above statement, the leadership of the BOT, the University, and the AD have changed completely with more changes likely. As for the State, there is an election coming up. I personally would like to know more about the Governor's connections to this.

Shutting down the University or even the football program only causes collateral damage and should only be done if either fails to address what needs to be done.

If you've ever been there you know it supports the economy of the entire area. A large chunk of it survives on the eight football weekends a year. People talk about $$$, but what we are really talking about are the livelihoods of the people who live and work there.

The claim that this was done to protect the Univ and FB is convenient for a lot of people. Both would have endured just fine. The coverup was made solely to protect the participants.

Today, there are two choices. Continue to do more harm or try to make the situation better. I prefer to focus on the latter now that those responsible are being held accountable.

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I'm not going to rehash the exact same thing I did for 40 pages with upstater last week.

The simple fact, is that there are times in life, when in human interaction among both individuals and groups, entire societies in fact, when there are peaceful solutions to problems, and there are times when the only solution, to create change, is violence and damage.

Always, the peaceful approach should be explored completely, and should always be the first course choice of action, and this what you're describing. Trying to take a peaceful approach to a major, significant change in the culture of Penn State university.

I am 100% convinced that the only way to ensure change in the Penn State culture, the only way that ALL of the corruption ceases, that led to a cover up of a guy like Sandusky, among all the ohter things that seem to be peeling away from the onion, is to inflict damage.

When that course of action is taken - say taking an aggressive posture in the exercise of military force - real world violence, not socio-economic inflict of damage, or trade embargo's, stuff like that - there is ALWAYS collateral damage.

The entire point of creating the change, is to destroy the target, and then let the leftovers, and the collateral damage realize that they need to do things differently in the future, or they might have the same thing happen again.

A lot more clear what I'm talking about, when you've got bombs, bullets flying around and dropping on your head, instead of a U.N. trade embargo or something, but the principle is the same in this situation.

You destroy the PSU football program, and the culture changes. You try to embargo it, and people continue to live exactly the same way.

That's my opinion. THe projected collateral damage of shutting down the football program, is far outweighed by the projected positive influence it would have not only on preventing this from ever happening again there, but anwhere else.

 

[SubbaBub]

I'm not going to rehash the exact same thing I did for 40 pages with upstater last week.

The simple fact, is that there are times in life, when in human interaction among both individuals and groups, entire societies in fact, when there are peaceful solutions to problems, and there are times when the only solution, to create change, is violence and damage.

Always, the peaceful approach should be explored completely, and should always be the first course choice of action, and this what you're describing. Trying to take a peaceful approach to a major, significant change in the culture of Penn State university.

I am 100% convinced that the only way to ensure change in the Penn State culture, the only way that ALL of the corruption ceases, that led to a cover up of a guy like Sandusky, among all the ohter things that seem to be peeling away from the onion, is to inflict damage.

When that course of action is taken - say taking an aggressive posture in the exercise of military force - real world violence, not socio-economic inflict of damage, or trade embargo's, stuff like that - there is ALWAYS collateral damage.

The entire point of creating the change, is to destroy the target, and then let the leftovers, and the collateral damage realize that they need to do things differently in the future, or they might have the same thing happen again.

A lot more clear what I'm talking about, when you've got bombs, bullets flying around and dropping on your head, instead of a U.N. trade embargo or something, but the principle is the same in this situation.

You destroy the PSU football program, and the culture changes. You try to embargo it, and people continue to live exactly the same way.

That's my opinion. THe projected collateral damage of shutting down the football program, is far outweighed by the projected positive influence it would have not only on preventing this from ever happening again there, but anwhere else.

You're argument is that it must be destroyed, so that it may be saved.

No thanks.

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[Waquoit]

When someone writes the exact 100% opposite of what I wrote, that's derangement.

If you have something of substance to say, say it. Show me where I said what ZLS claimed. If you want to lie, then you're a liar.

I don't know what you are referring to now. No one can keep up with you. You're a moving target. Someone comments on one of your posts, you take umbridge, insult them then you refer to another of your hundreds of posts to refute. It's parody. That's how I'm taking it.

 

[06029]

You're argument is that it must be destroyed, so that it may be saved.

No thanks.

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Are you saying that the PSU FB culture should be saved? As is?

Probably not, but how do you achieve the destruction of the FB culture that led to the cover-up and complete failure of any type of morality?

To me, there is no way to change the culture without a massive hit to the University and some of the players. Unfortunate as it is for the players, what is the alternative way to change the culture and make a statement to the entire country (and the NCAA) that you are changing the culture?

 

[Duncan Idaho]

People don't read. On every single page for the last 5 pages I've made my statement.

and on other threads too.

 

[Carl Spackler]

If I may be so bold as to give my interpretation of upstater's views:

#1. he believes that nobody in the Power 4 group, is really more culpable than any other member of the PSU power 4.
#2. He's concerned about the depth of the corruption and it's web of extent with the BOT, the cluture of PSU, and extending into local and state goverment, industry and academic situations throughout the state.
#3. He's in favor of shutting down the football program, but like a true academic, doesnt' think it will matter much to change all the stuff in #2.
#4. He's therefore concerned that by taking that action, all the other stuff in #2, will just end up being worse - like a true academic

Me on the other hand, and athletics guy.

I say that the culture of leadership at PSU is FUBAR, and I had no idea how it extended beyond the university until discussion with upstater....and by shutting down the football program, the millions, and millions of people in PA that are football fans, (unconcerned about all the stuff upstater is concerned about) will demand immediate, and clear and dry change, from the top on down, and that will lead to the change in the leadership that upstater wants to see.

And when it's over, the academic people will find away to talk around how football, really wasn't the cause of the both the corruption, and then by damaging it, the cause of the correction.

And the athletic people, will go back to playing football.

It was pointed out to me, something I clearly didn't think of, that PSU has this grand image of never having any sanctioning, rules problems. Over so long.

It's compelte BS. IF the leadership was willing to cover up SAndusky for so long, they've covered everything else up.

Liars. Strike it down, and build again.

 

[ChrisSmith]

No is one arguing that everything is just ok. Something bad happened - things need to be changed and the people involved need to be punished. That's been brought about by people losing their jobs, people going to jail, potential civil liability, and tremendous amounts of negative press.

Are you saying that the PSU FB culture should be saved? As is?

Probably not, but how do you achieve the destruction of the FB culture that led to the cover-up and complete failure of any type of morality?

To me, there is no way to change the culture without a massive hit to the University and some of the players. Unfortunate as it is for the players, what is the alternative way to change the culture and make a statement to the entire country (and the NCAA) that you are changing the culture?

The PSU football culture has already been changed. Coach fired, AD fired, assistant coaches fired, and lots of negative press. People that want to see the death penalty are sadistic or opportunistic.

Everyone that is remotely to blame has already been disassociated from the university (except for maybe the board of trustees). And the message has been more than sent for the future.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Are you saying that the PSU FB culture should be saved? As is?

Probably not, but how do you achieve the destruction of the FB culture that led to the cover-up and complete failure of any type of morality?

To me, there is no way to change the culture without a massive hit to the University and some of the players. Unfortunate as it is for the players, what is the alternative way to change the culture and make a statement to the entire country (and the NCAA) that you are changing the culture?

The only way, is if PSU themselves, the culture itself was clearly, demonstrating change, demonstrating that gravity of the problem proportionally by whatever they're doing.

i don't see it, therefore it's got to come externally.

 

[SubbaBub]

Are you saying that the PSU FB culture should be saved? As is?

Probably not, but how do you achieve the destruction of the FB culture that led to the cover-up and complete failure of any type of morality?

To me, there is no way to change the culture without a massive hit to the University and some of the players. Unfortunate as it is for the players, what is the alternative way to change the culture and make a statement to the entire country (and the NCAA) that you are changing the culture?

There has been plenty of press on how the culture within the FB program has done just that. There are only a couple of holdovers who I suspect will move on in a year or so.

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[Carl Spackler]

No is one arguing that everything is just ok. Something bad happened - things need to be changed and the people involved need to be punished. That's been brought about by people losing their jobs, people going to jail, potential civil liability, and tremendous amounts of negative press.


The PSU football culture has already been changed. Coach fired, AD fired, assistant coaches fired, and lots of negative press. People that want to see the death penalty are sadistic or opportunistic.

Everyone that is remotely to blame has already been disassociated from the university (except for maybe the board of trustees). And the message has been more than sent for the future.

You're the same person that suggest that a uconn fan want's the most severe punishment possible for PSU football, because it will be easier to recruiti in CT for football, instead of say...a uconn fan wanting the most severe punishment to the PSU football program, for failing to protect children from a serial child rapist for at least 14 years, so that the public image of the football program wouldn't be tainted.

I've tried to ignore that you wrote that, but you made it impossible.