Why no talk of death penalty for Penn State?

[BlueMAB]

Here is what I think should happen to Penn State:

By the NCAA:
Permanent, indefinite probation.

"Permanent, indefinite probation"

Do you even understand the stupidity of that statement? Either something is permanent or it's indefinite. It can't be both.

 

[BlueMAB]

By not punishing Penn State, you would be punishing all the schools that didn't break the rules. Football is a zero sum game. I know you are slow on the uptake, but there has to be a loser for every winner in football. By letting Penn State get away with cheating, everyone who didn't cheat gets punished because Penn State had an advantage as a result of their cheating. This is basic logic, not rocket science.

It gets tiring to explain the most basic aspects of critical reasoning to you. You are so obtuse most of the time that I assume you are kidding, but you seem serious.

Please don't try to lecture people about critical reasoning when you don't even understand that a punishment can be permanent, or indefinite, but not both.

It gets tiring watching you invent straw men to disagree with, but yet that's all you're good at. Everyone has a talent, yours is gery.

I'm obtuse to bullshit. It's not my fault you're full of it.

 

[BlueMAB]

I don't think the current football players should suffer for the actions of others. I don't think taking scholarships away from potential athletes helps protect children from molesters. I don't think forcing kids to transfer to other schools, where there will now be fewer scholarships available to incoming freshman, therefore fewer opportunities, does anything to help protect kids from child molesters. I don't think the women's hockey team did anything wrong, and I don't think they should have to pay a penalty. I think advocating for those types of actions, and using the argument that they cheated, and therefore everyone else was punished, shows that this is about opportunism for waylon.

As I previously stated, I think there are many more, starting with Mrs. Sandusky, who should be in jail. Anyone involved in the cover up should be in jail.

As far as punishment to Penn State. I'd propose the NCAA take all of PSU's Big 10 conference related revenue, and any bowl/playoff related revenue, for the next 10-20 years. Put half into a fund for the victims and the other half donated to charities that treat/support abuse victims. Taking $200-400+ million from a school would probably raise a few eyebrows.

If that cripples the athletic department then so be it (that's your goal anyway), but PSU has a big enough endowment to cover it. Now the burden is on PSU to pay up and support their athletic programs so that the innocent athletes aren't punished.

Now waylon will tell me why a $200-400+ million fine isn't punishment, and how I'm defending child molesters because I think the Golf team should have the chance to compete for a national championship next year if they are good enough.

 

[noeynox]

Nelson, I'd be in favor of anything that damages Penn State football and allows an advantage to UConn, but unless the NCAA had specific rules for reporting crimes, and defined what the NCAA penalties for not reporting crimes are, written in some NCAA rule book, I doubt they could do much. If the NCAA tried to create something on the whim to specifically damage Penn State/football, I would imagine they would be opening up themselves to a major lawsuit.

The sad reality is that this tragedy will do little to damage the Penn State football program. Just look at their commit list for this year. Penn State football probably led all NCAA programs in players being arrested in recent years, what did the NCAA do about that (Upstater, please don't bring the open container defense up)? Nothing.

For years Paterno/Penn State tried to hold themselves up as the model for how a "big time football program" should conduct themselves. We know now, "The GRAND EXPERIMENT" was a CROCK OF !

 

[nelsonmuntz]

I am not sure what any of this has to do with UConn, so I will ignore that.

As for Penn State, I think they will get a stern talking to, and that is about it. Big time programs can get away with covering up child rapists. If I were Kent State, I would check the punctuation on their compliance forms, because if there is so much as a comma out of place, the NCAA is going to drop the hammer. Penn State's transgressions are going to have the NCAA looking for blood...in the MAC. That's how it works in college athletics.

 

[brasssbonanzaa]

As horrific of an event as this was, it does not appear that there was a direct link to cheating by anyone on the field. Unless it's uncovered that players knew and actively looked the other way or were paid as part of the cover up, or it affected recruiting, or eligibility in any way, as noeynox said, there doesn't seem to be a rule on the books barring anything that happened. None of this involved things like agents, paying players, academic infidelity, or anything else that the NCAA regulates.

Think back to the Baylor basketball scandal. They didn't receive penalties from the NCAA after one player murdered another player, another horrific event, it was only when it was uncovered that the coach was paying the tuition of two players, one of whom he lied to, telling the player he was on scholarship when he was not.

Where I disagree is that this isn't going to hurt the Penn State brand. Their program is going to take a severe hit. They essentially will have to clean house of all of the football staff unless those who were there can prove to a 100% certainty that they never knew anything, and any future hires will have to come from the outside, so no one ever associated with Paterno's staff in any way. Not to mention the hit on recruiting, you have to wonder just how many recruits aren't going to want to play for "Penn State". That term alone is now a very toxic word, and I'd bet a lot of recruits will hang up the phone because they don't want to be associated with that program, even if it's cleaned up. Make no mistake, that program will suffer, even if not from the NCAA.

 

[businesslawyer]

Think back to the Baylor basketball scandal. They didn't receive penalties from the NCAA after one player murdered another player, another horrific event, it was only when it was uncovered that the coach was paying the tuition of two players, one of whom he lied to, telling the player he was on scholarship when he was not.
.

The personal nature of the debate I intend to ignore, but I do think your statement is missing part of the point. No damage should come to the PSU athletic department because of what Sandusky personally did. That is a criminal matter -- not a football matter or an NCAA matter. The difference between your Baylor example and PSU is that it appears that PSU, as an institution, acted to cover up criminal acts in order to protect athletics. To my knowledge, that was not the case at Baylor.

 

[brasssbonanzaa]

The personal nature of the debate I intend to ignore, but I do think your statement is missing part of the point. No damage should come to the PSU athletic department because of what Sandusky personally did. That is a criminal matter -- not a football matter or an NCAA matter. The difference between your Baylor example and PSU is that it appears that PSU, as an institution, acted to cover up criminal acts in order to protect athletics. To my knowledge, that was not the case at Baylor.

I see your point, and it makes sense. It did happen at Baylor, the men's head coach went to great lengths to cover it up including bribing the mother of one of the players to claim it wasn't true, then tried to claim he was the player's father...totally screwed up.

I don't know the extent of the cover up part, I haven't paid enough attention to it. That's the only thing I could see the NCAA acting on, but again, in terms of actual competition and them gaining competitive advantage, it seems like a bit of an indirect effect. I agree that's an area the NCAA could potentially act on, but it seems like a bit of a gray area as to what exactly occurred, how much it directly affected athletic competition, what role if any money played, if any money was given as hush money, etc. I would suspect if there's any kind of payments that are uncovered, that would open the NCAA floodgates.

 

[spsct]

I have to say that I agree with this post close to 100% (I don't believe that this is only about opportunism for Nelson). I am curious to hear his response to this.

And just to make my opinion clear, I think that Nelson's motive is bug-eyed, tongue lolling, pitchfork wielding vengeance.

I would also add that the $200-$400 million should be on top of civil lawsuit payments.

I don't think the current football players should suffer for the actions of others. I don't think taking scholarships away from potential athletes helps protect children from molesters. I don't think forcing kids to transfer to other schools, where there will now be fewer scholarships available to incoming freshman, therefore fewer opportunities, does anything to help protect kids from child molesters. I don't think the women's hockey team did anything wrong, and I don't think they should have to pay a penalty. I think advocating for those types of actions, and using the argument that they cheated, and therefore everyone else was punished, shows that this is about opportunism for waylon.

As I previously stated, I think there are many more, starting with Mrs. Sandusky, who should be in jail. Anyone involved in the cover up should be in jail.

As far as punishment to Penn State. I'd propose the NCAA take all of PSU's Big 10 conference related revenue, and any bowl/playoff related revenue, for the next 10-20 years. Put half into a fund for the victims and the other half donated to charities that treat/support abuse victims. Taking $200-400+ million from a school would probably raise a few eyebrows.

If that cripples the athletic department then so be it (that's your goal anyway), but PSU has a big enough endowment to cover it. Now the burden is on PSU to pay up and support their athletic programs so that the innocent athletes aren't punished.

Now waylon will tell me why a $200-400+ million fine isn't punishment, and how I'm defending child molesters because I think the Golf team should have the chance to compete for a national championship next year if they are good enough.

 

[BlueMAB]

I have to say that I agree with this post close to 100% (I don't believe that this is only about opportunism for Nelson). I am curious to hear his response to this.

And just to make my opinion clear, I think that Nelson's motive is bug-eyed, tongue lolling, pitchfork wielding vengeance.

I would also add that the $200-$400 million should be on top of civil lawsuit payments.

It's doubtful he responds to that post. He already posted, and completely ignored it. I'll take that as his apology and admission that he was lying about what my opinion is, because that's the closest he'll come to it.

 

[upstater]

Nelson, I'd be in favor of anything that damages Penn State football and allows an advantage to UConn, but unless the NCAA had specific rules for reporting crimes, and defined what the NCAA penalties for not reporting crimes are, written in some NCAA rule book, I doubt they could do much. If the NCAA tried to create something on the whim to specifically damage Penn State/football, I would imagine they would be opening up themselves to a major lawsuit.

The sad reality is that this tragedy will do little to damage the Penn State football program. Just look at their commit list for this year. Penn State football probably led all NCAA programs in players being arrested in recent years, what did the NCAA do about that (Upstater, please don't bring the open container defense up)? Nothing.

For years Paterno/Penn State tried to hold themselves up as the model for how a "big time football program" should conduct themselves. We know now, "The GRAND EXPERIMENT" was a CROCK OF !

Open container defense.

Intersting, you're another yammering on about this only in hopes of a football advantage.

 

[upstater]

The personal nature of the debate I intend to ignore, but I do think your statement is missing part of the point. No damage should come to the PSU athletic department because of what Sandusky personally did. That is a criminal matter -- not a football matter or an NCAA matter. The difference between your Baylor example and PSU is that it appears that PSU, as an institution, acted to cover up criminal acts in order to protect athletics. To my knowledge, that was not the case at Baylor.

The NCAA is going to need something in the emails mentioning the PR hit to athletics.

I think the NCAA though can do practically anything it likes and short of the death penalty, PSU likely wouldn't fight them over it. The NCAA probably knows that.

 

[noeynox]

Open container defense.

Intersting, you're another yammering on about this only in hopes of a football advantage.

Um no. I don't think PSU will face anything from the NCAA, hence there will never be any advantage to UConn. I do hope others involved in the cover up, some of whom may have perjured themselves, go to prison. I also hope the victims are made rich beyond their wildest dreams.

That Penn State tried to make themselves the model for others to follow when in fact it was helping to facilitate the worst crimes against children is not debatable. Everything they pretended to be was a farce.

 

[upstater]

Um no. I don't think PSU will face anything from the NCAA, hence there will never be any advantage to UConn. I do hope others involved in the cover up, some of whom may have perjured themselves, go to prison. I also hope the victims are made rich beyond their wildest dreams.

That Penn State tried to make themselves the model for others to follow when in fact it was helping to facilitate the worst crimes against children is not debatable. Everything they pretended to be was a farce.

So, maybe they should get rid of the academic side for football players, and become more like the SEC. It wouldn't make a difference, after all.

 

[noeynox]

So, maybe they should get rid of the academic side for football players, and become more like the SEC. It wouldn't make a difference, after all.

There it is in a nutshell. The arrogance that PENN STATE, was doing it the right way where others are coming up short. Who cares that PSU, made players go to class. They enabled a pedophile for years. Oh well.

 

[upstater]

There it is in a nutshell. The arrogance that PENN STATE, was doing it the right way where others are coming up short. Who cares that PSU, made players go to class. They enabled a pedophile for years. Oh well.

I'm agreeing with you. They should now do it like the SEC instead.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

The most pathetic argument I have seen among the PSU defenders is the pathetic ad hominem attacks on those critical of Penn State by claiming that we only want Penn State punished because they are somehow competitive with UConn in football.

If that is your argument in favor for letting Penn State pretend it never happened, then you really have nothing left to argue.

 

[spsct]

Fine

The most pathetic argument I have seen among the PSU defenders is the pathetic ad hominem attacks on those critical of Penn State by claiming that we only want Penn State punished because they are somehow competitive with UConn in football.

If that is your argument in favor for letting Penn State pretend it never happened, then you really have nothing left to argue.

Fine.. Then reply to WingU's post from July 4, 12:32 am. That is what I am interested in. There is no defense of PSU. Come on... Enlighten me.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Fine

Fine.. Then reply to WingU's post from July 4, 12:32 am. That is what I am interested in. There is no defense of PSU. Come on... Enlighten me.

He was defending Penn State right up until I forced him to take a position. He and I both knew he had no argument which is why he was just attacking me personally rather than defending his own undefendable position.

Upstater keeps on fighting though.

 

[upstater]

He was defending Penn State right up until I forced him to take a position. He and I both knew he had no argument which is why he was just attacking me personally rather than defending his own undefendable position.

Upstater keeps on fighting though.

I think you're in a fight with my ghosts. They seem to have taken residence in your fecund mind.

 

[noeynox]

I'm agreeing with you. They should now do it like the SEC instead.

Might as well. The charade is over. They should also dump the plain uniforms for a jazzier xfl version.

All kidding aside, seeing how this thing unfolded is sad. I was a big fan of Paterno and how it seemed that he was different than the Barry Switzer and Dennis Erickson of the world. I believe being as old as he was played a role in how this unfolded, but the abuse went on for so long and there were so many more victims than there should have been, that JoePa can't get a pass for being old. In hindsight he was much worse than a coach that looked the other way on envelopes stuffed with cash.

 

[BlueMAB]

He was defending Penn State right up until I forced him to take a position. He and I both knew he had no argument which is why he was just attacking me personally rather than defending his own undefendable position.

Upstater keeps on fighting though.

I never defended Penn State, I only challenged your method of punishment. I attacked you personally because you created an undefendable position, and then claimed it was mine. This is all you ever do, and it makes these boards unreadable. You're the only one in this thread who has accused me of defending PSU.

Now please enlighten the board, what is a "permanent, indefinite probation"?

What reward did your parents give you to prevent you from raping children?

 

[upstater]

Might as well. The charade is over. They should also dump the plain uniforms for a jazzier xfl version.

All kidding aside, seeing how this thing unfolded is sad. I was a big fan of Paterno and how it seemed that he was different than the Barry Switzer and Dennis Erickson of the world. I believe being as old as he was played a role in how this unfolded, but the abuse went on for so long and there were so many more victims than there should have been, that JoePa can't get a pass for being old. In hindsight he was much worse than a coach that looked the other way on envelopes stuffed with cash.

Agreed. But then, this happens way too much. People give a pass for this stuff. It should have been obvious to everyone that Paterno, and the people around him, still never understood the gravity of the situation. Paterno when he gave that last interview was so feeble, I can't understand why his kids allowed him to give it, as they were trying to preserve his rep, and yet even in that interview Paterno displayed the sort of attitudes that lead him to have more concern for Sandusky than those kids.

 

[FAIRTIDES]

I see your point, and it makes sense. It did happen at Baylor, the men's head coach went to great lengths to cover it up including bribing the mother of one of the players to claim it wasn't true, then tried to claim he was the player's father...totally screwed up.

I don't know the extent of the cover up part, I haven't paid enough attention to it. That's the only thing I could see the NCAA acting on, but again, in terms of actual competition and them gaining competitive advantage, it seems like a bit of an indirect effect. I agree that's an area the NCAA could potentially act on, but it seems like a bit of a gray area as to what exactly occurred, how much it directly affected athletic competition, what role if any money played, if any money was given as hush money, etc. I would suspect if there's any kind of payments that are uncovered, that would open the NCAA floodgates.

In this case, It had nothing to do with gaining an advantage and everything to do with maintaining the status quo, and not being exposed to something that generated a Disadvantage. Remember, one of PSU's major selling points, to recruits and parents, was it's pristine (somehow, arrests notwithstanding) image.

 

[CL82]

This thread is a thing of beauty, in a rambling insane kind of way. Have to wonder whether it will reach the "ACC" thread level of epicness.