What do you think about the one year audition for KO?

[upstater]

His offense was terrible, even in 2011. Kemba and the awakening of Lamb provided enough because the team played stellar defense in the postseason. I want to see a different approach.

I just totally disagree with you here. For the type of players they had, it's amazing they designed an offense where you knew Kemba and Lamb were taking all the shots, and yet the opponents could do little about it. That takes some doing.

 

[HuskyBballFan]

You are absolutely wrong. You need to know the game, have a sense of what you can do, how to adjust on the fly, how to get the most out of your team while limiting the ability of the other guy to get the most out of his...hint: it is way more than playing hard. If Calhoun doesn't figure out how to defend Duke's big man in 1999, no amount of "playing hard" matters.

Thank you for pointing out that "knowing the game is important." My point was in response to the Syracuse fan claiming that Mike Hopkins automatically has a leg up on Ollie because of his years as an assistant coach. The number of years of coaching experience doesn't automatically translate to coaching success. George Blaney has forgotten more about basketball than any of us will ever know, yet he still hasn't figured out when to call timeouts.

 

[IthacaMatt]

And you have the expertise to tell us the difference in terms of basketball knowledge and imparting that knowledge?

By all accounts, Ollie survived in the league precisely because he was great at bringing along younger players in terms of the game, preparation, etc. He survived because of his point guard knowledge, not because of flashy skills.

This doesn't mean he'll be a success, but if you want a blueprint for a coach that played more than he coached and ended up being a big success, look at Bill Donovan. He played pro for several years after college, became an assistant for 3 years, then took over Marshall for 2 years (pretty mediocre there) before landing Florida (largely due to his Pitino connection). In the pros, there are guys like Scott Skiles all over the place.

Compare this to young coaches like the Memphis guy or some others that are brought up quickly and no one seems to bat an eye.

I think being a point guard like Ollie for so long is worth a lot. More than assistant coaching? Less?

We shall see.

Look, if playing and coaching were equivalent skills, we'd see a lot more former players step in as coaches without any (or with little) previous coaching experience. And for some reason, we don't. Now, you can judge that for yourself. But to most unbiased observers, Ollie is a stretch hire, and most people wouldn't place him in the top group of potential coaches for your program. That's why Manuel wants to get to do his own search. And to make such a public statement of only giving Ollie a 7 month contract speaks volumes that Manuel wants to cut his financial exposure to the point where it comes off as a vote of no confidence in Ollie. This thread has already gone on too long, now, so I'll just bow out with that observation.

 

[caw]

Look, if playing and coaching were equivalent skills, we'd see a lot more former players step in as coaches without any (or with little) previous coaching experience. And for some reason, we don't. Now, you can judge that for yourself. But to most unbiased observers, Ollie is a stretch hire, and most people wouldn't place him in the top group of potential coaches for your program. That's why Manuel wants to get to do his own search. And to make such a public statement of only giving Ollie a 7 month contract speaks volumes that Manuel wants to cut his financial exposure to the point where it comes off as a vote of no confidence in Ollie. This thread has already gone on too long, now, so I'll just bow out with that observation.

Yes, but UConn fans love Ollie mostly.

BTW not everyone spends a ton of years as an assistant:

Billy Donovan 5
Jim Calhoun 0
Phil Jackson 2
Calipari 6
John Wooden 0
Jerry Tarkanian 0
John Thompson Jr. 0
John Thompson III 5
Pete Carril 0 (before being head coach of Princeton, became an assistant after)
Bob Huggins 4
John Chaney 0
Lute Olson 1
Mike Kryzewski 1
Bobby Knight 3

Some of those were players, some did coach at lower levels (high school, D2, etc.) but they weren't assistants.

Let me know if I'm off a year or two.

 

[upstater]

Look, if playing and coaching were equivalent skills, we'd see a lot more former players step in as coaches without any (or with little) previous coaching experience. And for some reason, we don't. Now, you can judge that for yourself. But to most unbiased observers, Ollie is a stretch hire, and most people wouldn't place him in the top group of potential coaches for your program. That's why Manuel wants to get to do his own search. And to make such a public statement of only giving Ollie a 7 month contract speaks volumes that Manuel wants to cut his financial exposure to the point where it comes off as a vote of no confidence in Ollie. This thread has already gone on too long, now, so I'll just bow out with that observation.

We do see former players do it. in the NBA it happens a lot. I gave you the Billy Donovan example as well. As for Warde Manuel, I think he's making a mistake. Calhoun knows more han he does about this, surely.

 

[Waquoit]

Yes, but UConn fans love Ollie mostly.

BTW not everyone spends a ton of years as an assistant:

Billy Donovan 5
Jim Calhoun 0
Phil Jackson 2
Calipari 6
John Wooden 0
Jerry Tarkanian 0
John Thompson Jr. 0
John Thompson III 5
Pete Carril 0 (before being head coach of Princeton, became an assistant after)
Bob Huggins 4
John Chaney 0
Lute Olson 1
Mike Kryzewski 1
Bobby Knight 3

Some of those were players, some did coach at lower levels (high school, D2, etc.) but they weren't assistants.

Let me know if I'm off a year or two.

So if I read this right, the only guys you mention under the age of 50 were assistants for at least 5 years. Times have changed, I don't think you prove your case here.

 

[caw]

So if I read this right, the only guys you mention under the age of 50 were assistants for at least 5 years. Times have changed, I don't think you prove your case here.

OK, change the goalpost. I see nothing about young coaches in the post I was replying to... I think this amply shows that good/great coaches don't need to be assistants, BTW how many good (let alone great) coaches are even under 50?

To answer your question, yes, it is nearly impossible to become a head coach without being an assistant first these days, but is that due to over-saturation in the coaching ranks or the actual need to be an assistant first? I think the older guys show it may be the former and not the later.

Fred Hoiberg 0 years
Dan Hurley 5 years
Brad Stevens 6 years

I'm sure you will recognize the first name. The post I was responding to was in regards to seeing coaches with little to no experience.

BTW: Five is a lot closer to two than to sixteen and is a relatively short time overall.

 

[freescooter]

We do see former players do it. in the NBA it happens a lot. I gave you the Billy Donovan example as well. As for Warde Manuel, I think he's making a mistake. Calhoun knows more han he does about this, surely.

yeah, I mean look at how many of Calhoun's assistants are coaching big time programs...Why Woodward at Maine has done pretty well, Moore is doing ok at Quinnipiac, oh and Leatio just got hired at Missouri...well as an assitant, not the head coach. Oh and Howie...can't think of any others who have made it as head coaches...they have all washed out at the mid-major level.

 

[Waquoit]

they have all washed out at the mid-major level.

That's a bit harsh. All of his guys had good runs. Too bad for Leitao, DePaul was the spot for him. But that's why Ollie is the man on the throne now. No way JC was going to sell (or an AD was going to buy) a guy who is coming off of being fired from his last HC job.

 

[HuskyBballFan]

yeah, I mean look at how many of Calhoun's assistants are coaching big time programs...Why Woodward at Maine has done pretty well, Moore is doing ok at Quinnipiac, oh and Leatio just got hired at Missouri...well as an assitant, not the head coach. Oh and Howie...can't think of any others who have made it as head coaches...they have all washed out at the mid-major level.

Running off that list of names is meaningless. Calhoun has only had two assistants in his tenure who he felt were worthy of being the next coach at Uconn - Ollie and Tom Moore. If you want to use Moore as an example of failure...I think that's a bit unfair but whatever. But Ted Woodward's lack of success at Maine doesn't have the slightest bit to do with Kevin Ollie.

 

[caw]

yeah, I mean look at how many of Calhoun's assistants are coaching big time programs...Why Woodward at Maine has done pretty well, Moore is doing ok at Quinnipiac, oh and Leatio just got hired at Missouri...well as an assitant, not the head coach. Oh and Howie...can't think of any others who have made it as head coaches...they have all washed out at the mid-major level.

Then maybe the fact Ollie was only under Calhoun's tutelage for 2 years as an assistant is a good thing. I'm kidding of course.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Another reason this is a bad idea is that if Manuel doesn't hire Ollie permanently, it will look like he didn't get a fair chance. If he gives Ollie a 3 year deal, and he stinks it up so bad he has to go at the end of the year, I think everyone would understand. But tying his hands behind his back and then asking him to be successful will strike many, like Donny Marshall's quote indicated, as unfair.

 

[freescooter]

nelson I agree with some of this, but I don't really know what choice he had on a bad situation. Calhoun left him with a coach he didn't trust and didn't want without time to find a replacement. He in effect made Ollie interim head coach without using the title.

 

[Waquoit]

Another reason this is a bad idea is that if Manuel doesn't hire Ollie permanently, it will look like he didn't get a fair chance. If he gives Ollie a 3 year deal, and he stinks it up so bad he has to go at the end of the year, I think everyone would understand. But tying his hands behind his back and then asking him to be successful will strike many, like Donny Marshall's quote indicated, as unfair.

What was unfair was tying the AD's hands. If KO shows he can run a program, he'll get the job full-time.

 

[freescooter]

Running off that list of names is meaningless. Calhoun has only had two assistants in his tenure who he felt were worthy of being the next coach at Uconn - Ollie and Tom Moore. If you want to use Moore as an example of failure...I think that's a bit unfair but whatever. But Ted Woodward's lack of success at Maine doesn't have the slightest bit to do with Kevin Ollie.

Moore has been a modest success at QU...got them to a couple of NITs, spit the bit twice when an NCAA bid was on the line. My point is for those who claim Calhoun is a best to select his replacement as head coach. He has never had an assistant who was a success as a head coach. Woodward, Dickerman and Moore are about the closest and they are all at what are effectively 1AA programs. given the length of his tenure, Moore is still questionable. Hobbs, and I really like Hobbs, but he flamed out at GW, Leatio was modestly successful at DePaul after failing at his alma mater, Glenn was reasonably successful in D3, had modest success at Brown and after one year flopped at Penn. So why is he suddenly omniscient when it comes to pushing one of his assistants as the next head coach? he has never hired assistants who made good head coaches. They may have been great assistant coaches, but that is a different job entirely. I expect kevin Ollie to be no different.

 

[Chief00]

I agree, Warde let his ego get in the way. Poor decision.

This is about the stupidest way it could be handled. I think Warde Manuel is an ego maniac and is more interested in winning a pissing match with Calhoun than he is in doing what is best for UConn.

Give Ollie a 3 year deal. Ollie will be cheap, so if Manuel wants to can him after a year or 2, it won't be that hard. But at least give Ollie the chance to be successful, particularly with recruiting.

he

 

[Buzzyboy]

I agree, Warde let his ego get in the way. Poor decision.
he

I personally think that Kevin Ollie will be successful at UConn. He's a little different than some of the other assistants mentioned in that his work ethic and his will to succeed was the major reason he was able to put together an NBA career. I think his ability to relate to these kids is important and will manifest itself in these players pushing themselves more than they ever thought they would or could. I think Warde is just protecting himself in case of a total disaster so that were Ollie's team to play listlessly and not perform to their abilities (whatever they may be) or conduct themselves like classy student athletes he would have an out. As long as Ollie manages all the aspects of the job in tying team effort, academics, and recruiting (setting up recuiting scheduling & connecting), I think he'll be extended. If UConn starts showing a lot of success both in recruiting and on the court and maybe even excedes expectations on either or both accounts, Warde's decision will be easy. I don't anticipate Kevin getting thrown to the curb unless this team is a total disaster and is not motivated in any way.

 

[DogMania]

I'm surprised this thread has continued on. I know I'm sounding like a broken record...hum, that saying seems quite outdated...but IMO the issue isn't not giving KO a fair chance, but the impact the 7 month deal has on the overall success of the program.

Look at it this way. Regardless to how it played out, since Manuel gave him the job, it doesn't make sense to not give him everything possible to succeed. A multi-year deal would have given KO time to succeed. By giving him a 7 month deal, it gives him very little time to prove himself with a talent depleted roster, plus potentially impact our recruit not only for KO if he's extended, but for the next guy if Manuel replaces him.

By simply giving him a 3 to 4 year deal with a reasonable buy-out, Manuel could have presented a more supportive posture, plus made it easier for KO and his staff to sell UConn to 2013 & 14 recruits. As it stands now, any recruit that is considering UConn has to accept the risk that KO won't be here next fall. As it stand at this moment, UConn does not have a Head Coach under contract for 2013/14 season. If KO and his staff secures a commitment from XRM and some other recruits under these conditions, he deserves a ton of praise. If he doesn't land them, you can simply point the finger at Manuel and Herbst, an opinion shared by many, showed a lack of confidence in their newly appointed young coach.

If they end up liking what KO did this upcoming season, and decide to extend a multi-year contract, there's a good chance that he has to go to battle the following season with less talent that he could have had. I hope that's not the case and that he overcomes this issue.

I really can't see any upside to the deal he got. It's not a matter that KO deserved a multi-year contract. Yeah, I think they should have given him a bigger window to succeed or fail. I'm fine with those who believe he didn't deserve one and needs to earn it. I'm also fine with those who think he should have gotten a longer deal but think he'll be fine and will earn it. That is not the point!!! For the recruiting angle alone, what they did just doesn't make good business sense.

It's as if two companies are competing for a contract that won't start till 8 months from now. One company tells the customer, well we have only 7 guaranteed months produce the product for you, and maybe if it goes well, we'll still be able to produce it when the contract begins, who knows? The other company says, well, we have the goods and means to produce it for the next few years. Now which decision has the better chance of keeping the buyer's job?

Now I realize there is a valid argument that having a multi-year deal with a buy out doesn't guarantee that Ollie would not be replaced for 2013/14. But it sure makes the sales pitch a heck of a lot easier and acceptable than the alternative. No matter how much I think about this, I personally can't come up with how this was a good idea.

 

[upstater]

It's funny but DePaul and GW had better seasons under Leitao and Hobbs the year before they left than they had in the prior 25 years.

It's hard to win at some places.

 

[8893]

What was unfair was tying the AD's hands. If KO shows he can run a program, he'll get the job full-time.

And there's the rub for you, eh? Knowing what we know now, you cannot seriously claim that Manuel would have given KO a shot if JC had retired as long ago as you wanted him to go. So, if Ollie is successful, you will have to admit that you were wrong. You can equivocate and parse as much as you want, but there is no escaping the conclusion that if KO succeeds here, we owe it to JC's parting master stroke. And that kills you.

But look on the bright side: If this plays out really well, you will have a reason to hold a silly grudge for another 30 years.

 

[Waquoit]

And there's the rub for you, eh? Knowing what we know now, you cannot seriously claim that Manuel would have given KO a shot if JC had retired as long ago as you wanted him to go. So, if Ollie is successful, you will have to admit that you were wrong. You can equivocate and parse as much as you want, but there is no escaping the conclusion that if KO succeeds here, we owe it to JC's parting master stroke. And that kills you.

But look on the bright side: If this plays out really well, you will have a reason to hold a silly grudge for another 30 years.

I let this go before, but you keep repeating untruths. I don't what you mean when you say "JC had retired as long ago as you wanted him to go." When did I want him to go? April? My bitch was JC holding the program hostage, I wanted him to quit playing games. I hold no grudge, UConn is my team, of course I want it succeed. Once Ollie was named the coach, he became my guy. KO's success wouldn't kill me, it would make me happy. You don't seem like a very deep thinker. Save the psychoanalysis for the experts.

 

[8893]

I let this go before, but you keep repeating untruths. I don't what you mean when you say "JC had retired as long ago as you wanted him to go." When did I want him to go? April? My bitch was JC holding the program hostage, I wanted him to quit playing games. I hold no grudge, UConn is my team, of course I want it succeed. Once Ollie was named the coach, he became my guy. KO's success wouldn't kill me, it would make me happy. You don't seem like a very deep thinker. Save the psychoanalysis for the experts.

Please tell me where the untruth is here:

• You believe that JC held the program hostage by delaying his retirement announcement long enough to leave Manuel with no practical choice but to install JC's hand-picked successor, KO, as head coach on at least an interim basis for the next seven months.
• You cannot seriously claim that Manuel would have given KO a shot as head coach otherwise.
• You believe that JC was wrong to tie the Manuel's hands in this way (and have stated so repeatedly).

So, how do escape the conclusion that, if Kevin succeeds here, we owe that success in large part to JC having done exactly what you said he should not have done?

 

[ctchamps]

Please tell me where the untruth is here:

• You believe that JC held the program hostage by delaying his retirement announcement long enough to leave Manuel with no practical choice but to install JC's hand-picked successor, KO, as head coach on at least an interim basis for the next seven months.
• You cannot seriously claim that Manuel would have given KO a shot as head coach otherwise.
• You believe that JC was wrong to tie the Manuel's hands in this way (and have stated so repeatedly).

So, how do escape the conclusion that, if Kevin succeeds here, we owe that success in large part to JC having done exactly what you said he should not have done?

Is it true Manuel had no other practical choice? I thought Miller was a possible option floated by people after the 2010 season when people postulated JC would soon retire. And what about Hobbs?

So Manuel definitely had the option of choosing between three former head coaches or the "unexperienced" guy from JC's staff.

JC may have left Manuel unable to do a national search, but ultimately Manuel selected KO over Hobbs, Miller and Blaney.

 

[8893]

Is it true Manuel had no other practical choice? I thought Miller was a possible option floated by people after the 2010 season when people postulated JC would soon retire. And what about Hobbs?

So Manuel definitely had the option of choosing between three former head coaches or the "unexperienced" guy from JC's staff.

JC may have left Manuel unable to do a national search, but ultimately Manuel selected KO over Hobbs, Miller and Blaney.

Agreed, except that I believe the only people who mattered to Manuel and supported Blaney, Miller or Hobbs were, at most, Blaney, Miller and Hobbs (and I refuse to believe that Blaney was considered or even wanted to be). We know that JC and Herbst wanted KO. You are Warde Manuel: Do you think there was another practical choice?

 

[huskymedic]

Agreed, except that I believe the only people who mattered to Manuel and supported Miller or Hobbs were, at most, Miller and Hobbs. We know that JC and Herbst wanted KO. You are Warde Manuel: Do you think there was another practical choice?

... And we know SH wanted KO how?