Warde Manual ... this ain't UBuffalo

[Pudge]

I know. We're just little old UConn. Just in the Big East because Holy Cross didn't return Gavitt's call...Just because Hathaway hired a Fran Dunphy-like football coach, I'm not sure you can assume that's what Manuel would do with the basketball job. Jeez. Pudge,UConn doesn't play in the fieldhouse anymore. We don't have rhode Island and UMass as our big games any more. UConn has 3 national Championships. Got more guys in the NBA than almost any other program. Building a freakin' Taj Mahal for practice..Carried th eBig East for more than a decade while it was trying to bridge the gap between Georgetown Villanova St Johns and the new version. .And you think the only guys who would have been interested are Fran Dunphy types (who by the bye has done a nice job rebuilding Temple).

In a sense I think that response though is reflective of what someone on another thread said about people who are accepting of the new Big East...they really don't see UConn as what it has become. They and sadly I put you in that catagorey really don't get that UConn is a major national program, maybe not quite a blueblood, but only a half a step below. I fyou don't have a higher view of UConn than that we'd get Fran Dunphy, I really don't know what to say. But it explains some of your other views.

Actually I am examining your views.

And I know Dunphy has done a solid job. So will Turgeon. Sean Miller. Even Mark Gottfried. See where I am going ...

There is NO John Calipari, Tom Izzo, Tom Crean, Billy Donovan on that list. Shaka Smart might be the lastest hot name. But ... I guarantee you that none of them on our second tier is 100%er to succeed here. I get that you aren't sold on Ollie. But ... we took a fairly riskless One year try. Will recruting be hurt? Should be. Yes. He should have a tough time convincing a great kid to come with his tenuous status. But, I really think we are getting the sense that Ollie has some special attributes in recruiting.

 

[whaler11]

OK ... if Kevin Ollie was Fred Hoiberg ... would you feel the same way?

I generally am picking up that is what is bugging some around here. And, imho, Kevin Ollie is more prepared than Hoiberg. WHO BEAT US IN MARCH. Hoiberg, btw, had less Coaching experience in college than Ollie now has. And, Ollie has a ton of credible contacts that Hoiberg would not have had at the start.

YES ... Fran Dunphy. That is my poster child for what we'd have ended up with after a search. I'd be thrilled by Beilein ... but Manual ain't stealing from the Wolverines. My expectation is that we'd get nibbles; but like the Arizona job ... lots walked by before Sean Miller moved 4000 miles for it. Would we be happy with the Xavier coach? Most would not be around here.

Way to beat around the bush. Are you implying that there are people who would be more comfortable with Ollie if he were white?

You can't compare hiring coaches without experience at UConn versus Iowa State. One has everything to lose, one has nothing to lose. Hopefully you can at least identify which is which.

 

[Nostical]

You can't compare hiring coaches without experience at UConn versus Iowa State. One has everything to lose, one has nothing to lose. Hopefully you can at least identify which is which.

Well said and right on point.

 

[ZooCougar]

In The Pudge's universe, Iowa State is a better program than us.

 

[freescooter]

In The Pudge's universe, Iowa State is a better program than us.

That's my point. My concern is that Ollie is in a very tricky spot because if it turns out that his selection was more to sooth Calhoun's ego than on his readiness to be the head coach, given the conference situation, in 5 years, Pudge might be right.

 

[uconnfan68]

That's my point. My concern is that Ollie is in a very tricky spot because if it turns out that his selection was more to sooth Calhoun's ego than on his readiness to be the head coach, given the conference situation, in 5 years, Pudge might be right.

He is in a tricky spot. But it isn't anything that he hasn't overcome with hard work before. He has the rest of the same staff JC did. (who have around 800 wins). They won't let him fail.

 

[Pudge]

Way to beat around the bush. Are you implying that there are people who would be more comfortable with Ollie if he were white?

You can't compare hiring coaches without experience at UConn versus Iowa State. One has everything to lose, one has nothing to lose. Hopefully you can at least identify which is which.

Read some of the posts immediately after the presser. Yesss.

And us versus Iowa St? Easy ... We're clearly not locked into Kevin. I expect he'll do great. I expect Manual might knowc a lot in the first 90 days ... I hope so.

 

[Fishy]

Ollie was chosen because Calhoun retired in September.

If he retired in April, Ollie isn't here anymore. And that's not because Manuel or Herbst bear him any ill will, it's only because there are better candidates out there for a school like UConn than a youngish guy with no track record as a head coach. What would have made him a home run for, say, Albany or Marist or Central doesn't necessarily make him such for UConn - UConn swims in a bigger pond.

I think he's probably 50/50 to win the permanent job. He's gotten the two current verbals to stay on, at least for now. He's poked his nose in the door on Parker, etc. The season probably will not go all that smoothly, but that is far from his fault. The powers that be will also have to balance the fact that this may not be the job it was two years ago - instead of Big Monday against Pitt on ESPN, we may be selling Teeny Tuesday on channel 843 and road trips to Assbuckle, Texas.

We'll see how it goes and reassess next spring. I hope he retires from UConn in 20 years, but if there is a better fit for us come spring time, so be it.

 

[Pudge]

UConn would give Kevin Ollie a solid contract if he came through the way Fred Hoiberg has at Iowa State ... in his short tenure.

There is NO guarantee on Kevin Ollie NOR on hiring the latest Hot guy. Kansas got lucky ... in my view ... with Bill Self; IU & Kelvin Sampson SHOULDA had the same fate ... damn.

 

[Danzz]

That's my point. My concern is that Ollie is in a very tricky spot because if it turns out that his selection was more to sooth Calhoun's ego than on his readiness to be the head coach, given the conference situation, in 5 years, Pudge might be right.

Giving Ollie or any HC a 1 year contract is a bad move without clear goals and expectations. We will probably be picked somewhere around 10th in the BE. Does this mean if we finish 9th or better Ollie should get a contract extension?If we finish lower does it mean Ollie gets canned?
My feeling is if you hire a coach you have to give him a fair shot and 1 season is way too small of a sample. 3 years with 2 years guaranteed makes a lot more sense.
It is likely that Manual wanted to open up the HC coach search keeping Ollie on the list but exploring other candidates. Calhoun and Herbst may have wanted Ollie and the 1 year contract was a compromise. The worst thing Uconn could do after next season is give Ollie a 1 year contract extension. They either have to back their hire or get somebody else. Playing it half way makes no sense at all.

 

[UConniki]

Giving Ollie or any HC a 1 year contract is a bad move without clear goals and expectations. We will probably be picked somewhere around 10th in the BE. Does this mean if we finish 9th or better Ollie should get a contract extension?If we finish lower does it mean Ollie gets canned?
My feeling is if you hire a coach you have to give him a fair shot and 1 season is way too small of a sample. 3 years with 2 years guaranteed makes a lot more sense.
It is likely that Manual wanted to open up the HC coach search keeping Ollie on the list but exploring other candidates. Calhoun and Herbst may have wanted Ollie and the 1 year contract was a compromise. The worst thing Uconn could do after next season is give Ollie a 1 year contract extension. They either have to back their hire or get somebody else. Playing it half way makes no sense at all.

They will play it half way.

 

[businesslawyer]

Giving Ollie or any HC a 1 year contract is a bad move without clear goals and expectations. We will probably be picked somewhere around 10th in the BE. Does this mean if we finish 9th or better Ollie should get a contract extension?If we finish lower does it mean Ollie gets canned?
My feeling is if you hire a coach you have to give him a fair shot and 1 season is way too small of a sample. 3 years with 2 years guaranteed makes a lot more sense.
It is likely that Manual wanted to open up the HC coach search keeping Ollie on the list but exploring other candidates. Calhoun and Herbst may have wanted Ollie and the 1 year contract was a compromise. The worst thing Uconn could do after next season is give Ollie a 1 year contract extension. They either have to back their hire or get somebody else. Playing it half way makes no sense at all.

We will at least explore getting a major name in after this season. But after this season, we will commit to KO or he will be gone.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

That's my point. My concern is that Ollie is in a very tricky spot because if it turns out that his selection was more to sooth Calhoun's ego than on his readiness to be the head coach, given the conference situation, in 5 years, Pudge might be right.

Question for you Scooter and please explain why, in detail your answer was yes or no:

When Kansas brought in Roy Williams (who coincidentally took over during a season with a postseason ban and recruiting restrictions) was that a good hire or bad hire by them?

 

[freescooter]

Question for you Scooter and please explain why, in detail your answer was yes or no:

When Kansas brought in Roy Williams (who coincidentally took over during a season with a postseason ban and recruiting restrictions) was that a good hire or bad hire by them?

Clearly it was a good hire. Went to 3 final 4s in his term and 2 national championship games. I think he brought teams to the NCAA Tournament every year except the 1 when they were banned. If not every one, very close. And won 80% of its games and a bunch of Big 8/12 championships. But let's remember that Williams had 10 years experience as an assistant to Dean Smith. Not two. I'm not sure what your point is here. A guy who had 10 years as an assistant to one of the top coaches in the game at one of the top programs gets hired to coach another top program. As opposed ot a guy who has 2 years as an assistant to a guy who quits 3 weeks before practice begins and threatens to hold his nose until he turns blue if his guy doesn't get picked...great coach, but as Fishy noted, Ollie is an assistant for Oklahoma City or somewhere if Calhoun had retired in April. Look, I truly hope that Ollie has a career comparable to Roy Williams. That would be terrific. I doubt he's ready though.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

Clearly it was a good hire. Went to 3 final 4s in his term and 2 national championship games. I think he brought teams to the NCAA Tournament every year except the 1 when they were banned. If not every one, very close. And won 80% of its games and a bunch of Big 8/12 championships. But let's remember that Williams had 10 years experience as an assistant to Dean Smith. Not two. I'm not sure what your point is here. A guy who had 10 years as an assistant to one of the top coaches in the game at one of the top programs gets hired to coach another top program. As opposed ot a guy who has 2 years as an assistant to a guy who quits 3 weeks before practice begins and threatens to hold his nose until he turns blue if his guy doesn't get picked...great coach, but as Fishy noted, Ollie is an assistant for Oklahoma City or somewhere if Calhoun had retired in April. Look, I truly hope that Ollie has a career comparable to Roy Williams. That would be terrific. I doubt he's ready though.

So if KO's accomplishments after fifteen years are an outstanding regular season record, a good number of conference tournament championships, a few final fours but no national titles, compounded by a few early flameouts in seasons where the team was viewed by many as the best in the country you would view his hire as a good one?

I hope you are being completely honest here but I still have a feeling that your stance would be that he couldn't win the big one and we would have fared better if we hired someone from the outside.

My point is that I believe that if KO's tenure at UConn end up being identical RW's tenure at Kansas (save the departure after a national title loss) you will gripe that we should have hired a proven coach instead of promoting KO when JC retired.

 

[freescooter]

FCF, To me the question is really how long are you willing to wait? Roy Williams Kansas team won 19 games the year he wasn't able to go to the tournament. The next year he won 30 and his 3rd year he went to the NCAA Finals. I'd sign for that right now. I can imagine a scenario where Kevin Ollie is a terrific coach 10 years from now, in his 2nd stint as Head coach after flaming out at UConn. I just truly have serious doubts that he has the experience coaching a team that you need to take over a big time program like UConn. And Unlike Pudge, I think UConn is a big time program. We're not looking for the coach at Fairfield, or even Iowa State. this is a program that competes head to head with Kansas, Duke, North Carolina et al, and has left the like of Villanova and Georgetown and even Syracuse in its rear view mirror...

Here's the thing though, Williams in 15 years went to 14 NCAA tournaments, never lsot a first round game, and had his season end in 2 Championship games, 1 additional final four, 1 Elite 8, 4 Sweet 16s, and 4 2nd rounds. Averaged 27 wins a year. Other than his first year, when kansas was banned form the post season, his WORST season he won 23 games. So it wasn't like he struggled for 3 or 4 years before he started winning. He won and won big from Day 1. If Ollie does that, I'm the first to say he was a terrific coach. My worry is 15-15 this year, 17-14 next year, 20-12, 18-15...when do you cut your losses? And nobody wants to answer that one!

 

[FfldCntyFan]

Scoot,

I also view UConn as a bigtime program but where you and I differ on this is in what a) KO brings to the table and b) the existing support structure in place. Having Miller and Hobbs on the bench with him will more than make up for any shortcomings he may have in terms of years of coaching development specified to sitting on a bench with a suit and tie on.

I personally believe that there really weren't a lot of names available to us unless we would be willing and able to pay JC's successor more than we were paying JC (I doubt that we would either have been willing or able to do this). The most logical candiate then would have been Shaka smart and in all candor, I don't see anything that Shaka can do that KO isn't already capable of. I also believe that his many years as an NBA point guard (including a few for Larry Brown, which I will elaborate on later if necessary) and the leadership roles (as well as locker room presence and coach on the floor) that he assumed over the last decade of his NBA career were every bit as valuable in coaching development as similar time spent as director of ops, third asistant, second assistant (which would have been his career path if he did begin his collegiate coaching career a decade ago).

It sounds to me as if you are more concerned with hype and glitter (which is what hiring a known name heaad coach would bring) than anything else and it appears that with KO you are assuming failure until proven wrong while with someone else (Smart, Miller, etc.) you would be assuming success until proven wrong. You are entitled to this belief (as I am entitled to mine) and I will quickly state that I was wrong if the day arrives when I need to (I do hope, for the sake of the program and no other reason) that the day never arrives. I just think that you are discounting too many things about KO's path to where he is right now that have been legitimate coaching development.

 

[freescooter]

FCF, we clearly disagree. But now answer my question. How long are you willing to wait for Ollie to produce? I'll even say as long as he finishes a game over .500 this year, he'll be extended. But keeping in mind that Williams won 30 games his second year, how many years are you willing to give Ollie before: A. He gets to the NCAA tournament; and B: His team makes a deep run?

 

[freescooter]

By the way, I think we would have been both willing and able to pay for a major coach if UConn had determined to go that way. As for Shaka Smart, I've seen him coach a mid-major to the final four and follow it up with an upset win over the #5 seed the following year. to say nothing of the fact that his team has won 27, 28 and 29 games in his 3 year head coaching career. And in his first year won the CBI. Yeah it was only the CBI, but they won it. I've seen Kevin Ollie hold Calhoun's clipboard...

 

[uconnfan68]

FCF, To me the question is really how long are you willing to wait? Roy Williams Kansas team won 19 games the year he wasn't able to go to the tournament. The next year he won 30 and his 3rd year he went to the NCAA Finals. I'd sign for that right now. I can imagine a scenario where Kevin Ollie is a terrific coach 10 years from now, in his 2nd stint as Head coach after flaming out at UConn. I just truly have serious doubts that he has the experience coaching a team that you need to take over a big time program like UConn. And Unlike Pudge, I think UConn is a big time program. We're not looking for the coach at Fairfield, or even Iowa State. this is a program that competes head to head with Kansas, Duke, North Carolina et al, and has left the like of Villanova and Georgetown and even Syracuse in its rear view mirror...

Here's the thing though, Williams in 15 years went to 14 NCAA tournaments, never lsot a first round game, and had his season end in 2 Championship games, 1 additional final four, 1 Elite 8, 4 Sweet 16s, and 4 2nd rounds. Averaged 27 wins a year. Other than his first year, when kansas was banned form the post season, his WORST season he won 23 games. So it wasn't like he struggled for 3 or 4 years before he started winning. He won and won big from Day 1. If Ollie does that, I'm the first to say he was a terrific coach. My worry is 15-15 this year, 17-14 next year, 20-12, 18-15...when do you cut your losses? And nobody wants to answer that one!

We're not as cunning as Big12 schools. They need to be able to compete with the UTs and OUs of the world. How else do you sell living in Kansas for a few years?

 

[FfldCntyFan]

FCF, we clearly disagree. But now answer my question. How long are you willing to wait for Ollie to produce? I'll even say as long as he finishes a game over .500 this year, he'll be extended. But keeping in mind that Williams won 30 games his second year, how many years are you willing to give Ollie before: A. He gets to the NCAA tournament; and B: His team makes a deep run?

If we can't finish .500 this season there is a problem. If that problem is even remotely due to coaching, it will be time to move on.

I fully expect us to be a tournament team (and ranked for the bulk of the season) in 2013-2014. If KO can't deliver what I see as reasonable expectations (quality recruiting classes, ranked teams most of the times, capable of a sweet 16 or elite 8 moreoften than not, a team capable of making a run at a title (not necessarily winning it) every (give or take) four years, we should look to move on.

Tell me, what does KO need to accomplish this season and then the following season for you to believe we made a good move (or will the jury be out in your eyes until he does win a title)?

 

[freescooter]

this season is tough, but I'd say 17 wins, and a team that competes even when it loses would be the minimum. And next year we need to be in the tournament. And back with a reasonable run in 2015. the problem as I see it is if we wait too long there is a very real risk that we'll be down for quite a long time. And I don't think that this year being a "thowaway" is necessarily a good thing. There are too many built in excuses for a poor season, and I think as long as we are above .500 there will be huge pressure form the fan base to stay the course. And if we go to the NIT next year, we'll hear that well, you can't count 2012-13 since we were in turmoil...and so on and it will be very easy to get 5 or 6 years into this and discover we're no longer competing with Duke for national supremacy, but NC State and Temple for the best of the mediocre programs.

 

[Husky68]

this season is tough, but I'd say 17 wins, and a team that competes even when it loses would be the minimum. And next year we need to be in the tournament. And back with a reasonable run in 2015. the problem as I see it is if we wait too long there is a very real risk that we'll be down for quite a long time. And I don't think that this year being a "thowaway" is necessarily a good thing. There are too many built in excuses for a poor season, and I think as long as we are above .500 there will be huge pressure form the fan base to stay the course. And if we go to the NIT next year, we'll hear that well, you can't count 2012-13 since we were in turmoil...and so on and it will be very easy to get 5 or 6 years into this and discover we're no longer competing with Duke for national supremacy, but NC State and Temple for the best of the mediocre programs.

75% of college basketball is recruiting. How well do you think Ollie will recruit? Get recruits and you are a top 25 team. How bad a coach can Ollie be if he can recruit; doesn't matter how good a coach he is if he can't recruit.
Is he capable of winning 3 national championships in his career, I don't know. Tell me of the "good" coaches now in the game, what coach that hasn't won one National Championship is going to win 3; never mind that, who is the next 1st time winner? Probably next season you have Kentucky, Duke, NC, Syracuse, Kansas, Florida, Mich State are up there, but those guys have won already.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

this season is tough, but I'd say 17 wins, and a team that competes even when it loses would be the minimum. And next year we need to be in the tournament. And back with a reasonable run in 2015. the problem as I see it is if we wait too long there is a very real risk that we'll be down for quite a long time. And I don't think that this year being a "thowaway" is necessarily a good thing. There are too many built in excuses for a poor season, and I think as long as we are above .500 there will be huge pressure form the fan base to stay the course. And if we go to the NIT next year, we'll hear that well, you can't count 2012-13 since we were in turmoil...and so on and it will be very easy to get 5 or 6 years into this and discover we're no longer competing with Duke for national supremacy, but NC State and Temple for the best of the mediocre programs.

It sounds as if we fundamentally agree on what the issues will be if we do have an immediate and (even short term) lasting drop off.

Where we differ is it appears that you seem to believe that if we went outside for JC's replacement it would be a given that we would not miss a beat while with KO, the risk is great that he will bring us results that are even remotely close to what we want. I believe that there would be a risk regardless of who we bring in and I see the risk as no greater with KO than it would have been with nearly any other possibility (Izzo, K, Calipari are the few sure things I can think of).

 

[ConnHuskBask]

It sounds as if we fundamentally agree on what the issues will be if we do have an immediate and (even short term) lasting drop off.

Where we differ is it appears that you seem to believe that if we went outside for JC's replacement it would be a given that we would not miss a beat while with KO, the risk is great that he will bring us results that are even remotely close to what we want. I believe that there would be a risk regardless of who we bring in and I see the risk as no greater with KO than it would have been with nearly any other possibility (Izzo, K, Calipari are the few sure things I can think of).

Not to jump in the middle of your guy's debate here, but to say Ollie is no greater risk than the coaches we would be presumably talking to is quite the stretch. I totally get the Ollie enthusiasm and I'm fine with the hire and will totally support him, but how can you say the risk with Ollie and say Shaka Smart are the same?

Shaka Smart is a proven commodity that has coached a CAA team to the Final 4. Ollie has been an assistant, and not even the top assistant here at UConn for two years.

Neither are sure things, but think about it from a business perspective.

You have to hire a new guy in your finance department are you going with the new college graduate that could be a great hire or are you going with the guy who has been in the workforce for years and has proven himself?

Ultimately, we're all in Ollie's camp, but let's be real about the situation. He has absolutely no experience whatsoever in coaching and running a D1 program. He is a huge risk.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

I seem to remember a couple of proven commodities that Kentucky hired to replace coaches that won national titles (and also succeeded national title winning coaches) that did not work out very well (Sutton, Gillespie).

Sure things and proven commodities aren't always what they appear to be.

 

[freescooter]

I think ConnHuskBask has hit it right on the head. It largely depends on what you think Ollie will deliver. Of course there are no guarentees whether you hire Kevin Ollie or Shaka Smart or pretty much anyone except maybe Mike K, Roy Williams. Self or Calipari, and the 1st 3 wouldn't come an the last one might be less successful in an athletic department that would require him to abide by at least minimal standards. But my view is that hiring Ollie is a huge risk, since you are asking an inexperienced guy to coach in one of the toughest conferences in the country. And playing in the NBA is vastly different from coaching a college basketball team. And in my view, the potential downside if Ollie can't cut it is disaterous. And I'd go even further and say that the Ollie risk is higher than almost any other coach you could hire, because the fan base won't let you replace him unless he drives the program completely into a ditch. The PR effort in his behalf has been such that a string of mediocre efforts will not be sufficient to allow for his replacement until we have moved well out of the range of elite programs. 10 years ago, when the Big East was becoming the power conference in the country it might have been possible to go 5 or 6 years with a mediocre coach and keep thinking he's just a year away. In the current environment that just isn't the case. And mark my words, if Ollie has a string of 18-20 win seasons, that is exactly what we'll hear from the apologists. If UConn basketball falls to a lower level, it might very well be a very long stay. In my view, what UConn needed to do, still needs to do really, was try and minimize that risk by hiring a proven coach or at the very least a coach who has demonstrated by his coaching record that he can succeed in keeping UConn at a high level. Ollie may very well be a great guy and we know was a tough player, may be nice to his mother and drive his maiden aunt to church every Sunday. But as a basketball coach he is a cipher, and therefore a huge risk to the crown jewel of the UConn athletic department. You saying you think he'll be a great coach is based on a hope and a prayer, not a single fact. I say John ThompsonIII, Rick Pitino, and the rest of the sharks in the Big East water are going to have no mercy on a guy who has never even come close to swimming in their waters.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

Shouldn't we wait until he fails before proclaiming him a failure?

 

[freescooter]

Never said he was a failure. Said he was a high risk. And maybe he should coach at least 1 game before we tell proclaim him a great head coach.

And as an aside to 68, whiel recruiting is important, it is far more about knowing who to recruit than just landing guys. Then it is about knowing what to do with them once you get them,. Calhoun was masterful at the knowing part and the what to do with them part. Much as he takes heat on this board for his "ethical lapses" Calipari has also been very good at that. With what hasessentially been a series of all-star teams, he has done a very goo jobe at getting guys to play within a system. With all those guys, Kentucky and before that Memphis, could easily deteriorated into a bunch of individuals rather than a team.

 

[uconnfan68]

Never said he was a failure. Said he was a high risk. And maybe he should coach at least 1 game before we tell proclaim him a great head coach.

And as an aside to 68, whiel recruiting is important, it is far more about knowing who to recruit than just landing guys. Then it is about knowing what to do with them once you get them,. Calhoun was masterful at the knowing part and the what to do with them part. Much as he takes heat on this board for his "ethical lapses" Calipari has also been very good at that. With what hasessentially been a series of all-star teams, he has done a very goo jobe at getting guys to play within a system. With all those guys, Kentucky and before that Memphis, could easily deteriorated into a bunch of individuals rather than a team.

I wouldn't have a problem with K, Williams, Self, or even Calipari coming to UConn... but none of them would ever do it. Yes, it's true KO is untested as ahead coach at this level, but the potential is there, and guess what... all of the assistants and JC are still there too. Now JC can't coach in games, but the others can offer their perspectives. It will be different, but not worse. The Big East is changing within the year, and we're already down a rung on the ladder with or without JC. Football drives the bus, and we're still in the parking lot. The lack of high level football will destroy what JC built, not KO.