Warde Manual ... this ain't UBuffalo

[The Funster]

First, Calhoun broke his hip. Second, how do you conduct an open search with an inside candidate when recruits have reported (last year) that the President implied Ollie would take over? Third, I don't get this idea about puppet ADs. What's their competency? Is Darryl Gross insulted at Syracuse because Boeheim chose Mike Hopkins as his successor? Did it happen at all the other places that named coaches in waiting?

I'm just curious about the timing of everything, number one. The President implying that Ollie would take over is not stating it as a fact either. Finally, how do we know that Boeheim hasn't had conversations with Gross about Hopkins and Gross is fully on board? Bringing up Hopkins means nothing because that is a future decision and has no bearing at all on the Ollie decison which was brought up very suddenly. The two situations are nothing alike.

All I'm saying is Manuel was backed into a position. Whether it was done purposely or not is not really all that important, atm. What is important is that the AD stopped, and rather than allowing himself from being rushed into a decision, exercised his authority and decided that Ollie was getting a one year trial before a longer term commitment.

 

[upstater]

We didn't name a coach in waiting. Calhoun wanted UConn to do that and was rejected. Breaking his hip only means that it is possible that JC didn't delay on purpose. I still think he probably did. Either way it doesn't matter. There was no coach in waiting. There was no time for a search. So they hired a guy for a year. It could have been Hobbs. Maybe it should have been. This is so obvious that I don't understand all this constant bitching and whining. Kevin Ollie has become some kind of sacred cow or something. He was an interesting potential candidate and a nice former player. Nothing more. But since the school didn't get to find out whether he was the best candidate (which is far from clear), he got the job anyway. Now we can all move on and hope he brings the program to its previous heights. Everybody is pulling for him to succeed. But nobody in his or her right mind thinks that whether he does or does not succeed will be determined by the length of his initial contract.

The #1 recruit in the whole freaking country just put us on his list and welcomed Ollie for a visit. Does that sound like one hand is tied behind his back? Now will we get him? Who knows...the competition is fierce and JC almost never landed these guys.

As for Syracuse, Boeheim didn't name Hopkins his successor, the university did. The AD, the administration reached a contract with him. They made the decision. They did it, in part, because he was a hot property and was getting offers from Charlotte etc. None of that is the case here. It might have been, in time, but it wasn't.

I don't see how your point about the coach in waiting is relevant at all.

Boeheim foisted his assistant on Gross, and Gross's ego was not sufficiently inflated that he rejected it. That's how Hopkins became coach-in-waiting.

You're just absolutely and totally wrong about the initial contract. Infact, you are out of your mind nuts on that point.

 

[upstater]

I'm just curious about the timing of everything, number one. The President implying that Ollie would take over is not stating it as a fact either. Finally, how do we know that Boeheim hasn't had conversations with Gross about Hopkins and Gross is fully on board? Bringing up Hopkins means nothing because that is a future decision and has no bearing at all on the Ollie decison which was brought up very suddenly. The two situations are nothing alike.

All I'm saying is Manuel was backed into a position. Whether it was done purposely or not is not really all that important, atm. What is important is that the AD stopped, and rather than allowing himself from being rushed into a decision, exercised his authority and decided that Ollie was getting a one year trial before a longer term commitment.

I didn't say the two situations are totally alike. I said that Gross didn't have the problems with Boeheim's sugestion that Manuel had with Calhoun's. He wasn't thinking, I'm the AD! I decide!

 

[The Funster]

I didn't say the two situations are totally alike. I said that Gross didn't have the problems with Boeheim's sugestion that Manuel had with Calhoun's. He wasn't thinking, I'm the AD! I decide!

The situations are completely different. The SU situation shouldn't have even been brought up as a comparison.

 

[HuskyHawk]

You're just absolutely and totally wrong about the initial contract. Infact, you are out of your mind nuts on that point.

I feel the same way about you. So we'll see who is right. This topic has been overly beat to death.

 

[Pudge]

Boeheim has tremendous capital with Big Donors. And Doctor Gross is not that powerful over there. UConn is not as dependant on that endowment/donor base. Ollie is a unique compromise given circumstances. I'm not sure we would have gone the same path if Calhoun retired in May; but, we might have. I think the 8 month contract is stupid; this is not a money issue. An extra $600-700k?

We should now a lot about Kevin Ollie's capability in 10 weeks.

 

[upstater]

The situations are completely different. The SU situation shouldn't have even been brought up as a comparison.

Assistant recommended by HC hired as coach.

Yep, completely different.

 

[upstater]

I feel the same way about you. So we'll see who is right. This topic has been overly beat to death.

What do you mean we'll see who's right? How can we possibly know? Do you imagine we'll know that he's been hurt in recruiting?

 

[The Funster]

Assistant recommended by HC hired as coach.

Yep, completely different.

Oh please. I didn't think you were so petty. Have it your way if it is so important to you.

 

[upstater]

Oh please. I didn't think you were so petty. Have it your way if it is so important to you.

Jeez, why is it so important to you? Don't see it as petty. I just can't understand why you don't see the pretty evident similarities.

 

[HuskyHawk]

What do you mean we'll see who's right? How can we possibly know? Do you imagine we'll know that he's been hurt in recruiting?

Well if we make the top 5 for the #1 recruit in the nation after being added to his list only after JC retired, I'd say that's pretty good evidence that it isn't an issue. If we make the top 2 for a guy like XRM (hey we effectively already did) that's evidence. And if we land Noah Vonleh then that's pretty good evidence. All those guys would have been big gets even for Calhoun.

If instead nobody takes his phone calls and people slam the door in his face, that's evidence that it's hurting him. Or if Kevin gives and interview and details the difficulties it adds and how many kids were turned off by it.

My point has been that you and Pudge are assuming some huge effect from this, and throwing freaking tantrums about it even though there is no evidence that it has or will hurt recruiting. There is at least some evidence (the late home visit with Parker) that it has not. Until we see that it has, it isn't worth worrying about.

And just to show how reasonable I am, if it's January, and KO seems to be handling the coaching duties, media etc. just fine, and he comes to WM and says "this contract is killing me with the 14-15 class kids", WM should extend him right away.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Jeez, why is it so important to you? Don't see it as petty. I just can't understand why you don't see the pretty evident similarities.

A guy on the bench for 10 years? A guy who fielded HC offers? That's what Hopkins was when the Cuse signed him to a long term contract with a succession plan included in 2007. Nobody twisted the AD's arm on that. He was happy to lock up the guy he and Boeheim wanted, and who they were at risk of losing. They felt lucky that a guy like that was willing to stay at Syracuse in the #2 job for many years, delaying his HC career. He also didn't have to be ready right then, as they had several more years for him to get even more experierence. Guess what, even some HC experience it seems. http://aol.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/story/2012-05-21/mike-hopkins-syracuse-us-select-team

It's not even close to similar. Ollie has 3 years, none of them even as the top assistant. Hell, if he was on the market, my guess is Hopkins would be in our top 5 for this job. JC and JB are hardly enemies.

 

[upstater]

Well if we make the top 5 for the #1 recruit in the nation after being added to his list only after JC retired, I'd say that's pretty good evidence that it isn't an issue. If we make the top 2 for a guy like XRM (hey we effectively already did) that's evidence. And if we land Noah Vonleh then that's pretty good evidence. All those guys would have been big gets even for Calhoun.

If instead nobody takes his phone calls and people slam the door in his face, that's evidence that it's hurting him. Or if Kevin gives and interview and details the difficulties it adds and how many kids were turned off by it.

My point has been that you and Pudge are assuming some huge effect from this, and throwing freaking tantrums about it even though there is no evidence that it has or will hurt recruiting. There is at least some evidence (the late home visit with Parker) that it has not. Until we see that it has, it isn't worth worrying about.

And just to show how reasonable I am, if it's January, and KO seems to be handling the coaching duties, media etc. just fine, and he comes to WM and says "this contract is killing me with the 14-15 class kids", WM should extend him right away.

First, UConn is not in Jabari's top 5. And even if it had somehow made it in, losing out on him would have meant little to nothing. It would have probably meant this: "I loved Kevin Ollie, but the uncertainty was a big obstacle!"

As for the rest, by January, the decisions will have already been made.
Finalists without landing the kid? That does nothing for UConn.

UConn football was 2nd for the best LB in the nation, Barkevious Mingo at LSU, in Pasqualoni's first year. It doesn't seem to have helped him or meant anything.

It's not whether WM should extend him in January. It's whether he should have been extended right away. And by January, he's going to extend him then for recruiting advantages? Really? For 2 months? To recruit a kid when by that time it will be obvious that Ollie's stay is tenuous?

What top kid in his right mind would commit under those circumstances? That would be nutty.

 

[upstater]

A guy on the bench for 10 years? A guy who fielded HC offers? That's what Hopkins was when the Cuse signed him to a long term contract with a succession plan included in 2007. Nobody twisted the AD's arm on that. He was happy to lock up the guy he and Boeheim wanted, and who they were at risk of losing. They felt lucky that a guy like that was willing to stay at Syracuse in the #2 job for many years, delaying his HC career. He also didn't have to be ready right then, as they had several more years for him to get even more experierence. Guess what, even some HC experience it seems. http://aol.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/story/2012-05-21/mike-hopkins-syracuse-us-select-team

It's not even close to similar. Ollie has 3 years, none of them even as the top assistant. Hell, if he was on the market, my guess is Hopkins would be in our top 5 for this job. JC and JB are hardly enemies.

Yet another post continually dismissing Ollie's basketball experience.You're somehow more impressed by what Hopkins has done than Ollie's experience.

 

[The Funster]

A guy on the bench for 10 years? A guy who fielded HC offers? That's what Hopkins was when the Cuse signed him to a long term contract with a succession plan included in 2007. Nobody twisted the AD's arm on that. He was happy to lock up the guy he and Boeheim wanted, and who they were at risk of losing. They felt lucky that a guy like that was willing to stay at Syracuse in the #2 job for many years, delaying his HC career. He also didn't have to be ready right then, as they had several more years for him to get even more experierence. Guess what, even some HC experience it seems. http://aol.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/story/2012-05-21/mike-hopkins-syracuse-us-select-team

It's not even close to similar. Ollie has 3 years, none of them even as the top assistant. Hell, if he was on the market, my guess is Hopkins would be in our top 5 for this job. JC and JB are hardly enemies.

Let it go. If anyone wants to compare the Hopkins and Ollie situations, let em. The fact that he tries to tell you that your post is dismissive of Ollie's experience is all you need to know. Some people just love strawmen.

 

[freescooter]

Yet another post continually dismissing Ollie's basketball experience.You're somehow more impressed by what Hopkins has done than Ollie's experience.

You keep bringing that up as if being a player is comparable to being a head coach! It isn't. it simply is not. As an NBA player, Ollie had zero responsibility for assembling a team, for identifying areas of need, for deciding what type of offense to play, when to substitute, whether to double team the player X or Y during the final seconds (the famous Jim Calhoun quote about McNamarra comes to mind) how to deal with a guy who is in a shooting slump, or in a funk because his girlfriend dumped him, how to deal with the media, who should have what responsibilities among the assistants coaches. As a player, he has no responsibility or even input into questions such as how do we make the best use of Drummond, Oriaki and Smith? None of the millions of things, large and small, that the head coach of a major program is responsible for, even when he's not the one who does them. As a player, his responsibility is to show up and be ready to play when called upon. That's it. Does it maybe impress some recruits when he says I played in the NBA for 10 years? Sure. But does that matter if he can't figure out how to best use them if he does get them to come to UConn? Not a bit. You are the one who has it backasswards. Just because someone was a good player, or even a journeyman palyer, it doesn't automatically translate into being a good coach. Jim Calhoun never even had a sniff of the NBA. didn't seem to hurt his ability to coach. Boehiem's "pro career" was a couple of years with a minor league team in Scanton PA. but he was a pretty good coach too. Far as I know, Pitino never played in the NBA but he's pretty fair too. Billy Donovan, your favorite example, played a year for the New York Knicks. Hasn't hurt him too much. these guys all learned to be coaches. They learned to scout, review film,and so forth, not just to see what the guy htey might cover likes to do in a given situation, but from a larger perspective. Not does Jones always go to his left when he drives? Or does smith pick up his dribble if he's pressed? but the bigger picture too...what does Coach Smith do if we double team Jones? Who does he substitute and how do we counter that? How do we force them out of their comfort zone? And that's only the game analysis...

 

[upstater]

Let it go. If anyone wants to compare the Hopkins and Ollie situations, let em. The fact that he tries to tell you that your post is dismissive of Ollie's experience is all you need to know. Some people just love strawmen.

You obviously haven't been following along.

 

[upstater]

You keep bringing that up as if being a player is comparable to being a head coach! It isn't. it simply is not. As an NBA player, Ollie had zero responsibility for assembling a team, for identifying areas of need, for deciding what type of offense to play, when to substitute, whether to double team the player X or Y during the final seconds (the famous Jim Calhoun quote about McNamarra comes to mind) how to deal with a guy who is in a shooting slump, or in a funk because his girlfriend dumped him, how to deal with the media, who should have what responsibilities among the assistants coaches. As a player, he has no responsibility or even input into questions such as how do we make the best use of Drummond, Oriaki and Smith? None of the millions of things, large and small, that the head coach of a major program is responsible for, even when he's not the one who does them. As a player, his responsibility is to show up and be ready to play when called upon. That's it. Does it maybe impress some recruits when he says I played in the NBA for 10 years? Sure. But does that matter if he can't figure out how to best use them if he does get them to come to UConn? Not a bit. You are the one who has it backasswards. Just because someone was a good player, or even a journeyman palyer, it doesn't automatically translate into being a good coach. Jim Calhoun never even had a sniff of the NBA. didn't seem to hurt his ability to coach. Boehiem's "pro career" was a couple of years with a minor league team in Scanton PA. but he was a pretty good coach too. Far as I know, Pitino never played in the NBA but he's pretty fair too. Billy Donovan, your favorite example, played a year for the New York Knicks. Hasn't hurt him too much. these guys all learned to be coaches. They learned to scout, review film,and so forth, not just to see what the guy htey might cover likes to do in a given situation, but from a larger perspective. Not does Jones always go to his left when he drives? Or does smith pick up his dribble if he's pressed? but the bigger picture too...what does Coach Smith do if we double team Jones? Who does he substitute and how do we counter that? How do we force them out of their comfort zone? And that's only the game analysis...

It's not nothing. Except for you.
Go talk to the GMs that dealt with him and wanted him running things.

 

[HuskyHawk]

It's not nothing. Except for you.
Go talk to the GMs that dealt with him and wanted him running things.

Good God but this debate is tiresome. Nothing? Nobody thinks it is nothing. In the same way Jason Varitek through his playing years showed an obvious aptitude for managing, so too did Kevin Ollie. Meanwhile most NBA players probably have IQs under 100 and aren't qualified to make change at a car wash no matter how long they play.

It is valuable because of the way KO obtained it and his personal approach to the game. But 15 years in then NBA isn't the same as 15 years coaching. It is just not, or even close. I see all in intangibles of potential greatness in Kevin, I do. Even a short stint as a coach is all we need to be convinced or know we were wrong.

 

[Husky68]

I'll say it again, being a coach at an elite program is all about recruiting. Calhoun was so smart with Kemba and the next year couldn't get a team with 2 lottery picks and bunch of FF experience to chew gum and walk at the same time.
Ollie has 3 assistant coaches with head coaching experience. You guys make coaching out to be some rocket science, these are high paid gym teachers. Two years as an assistant coach under him is enough for Calhoun to judge Ollie is ready, its enough for me.
Get Rip/Jake/Freemon/Kalid/Moore; Okafor/Ben/Charlie/Boone/Rasheed/Brown/Taliek; Kemb/pips - get that type talent and he'll win championships.

How many national championships do you think Calhoun would have won if he stayed at BU?

 

[The Funster]

You obviously haven't been following along.

Heh, yeah right. You know it all, I guess.

 

[upstater]

Good God but this debate is tiresome. Nothing? Nobody thinks it is nothing. In the same way Jason Varitek through his playing years showed an obvious aptitude for managing, so too did Kevin Ollie. Meanwhile most NBA players probably have IQs under 100 and aren't qualified to make change at a car wash no matter how long they play.

It is valuable because of the way KO obtained it and his personal approach to the game. But 15 years in then NBA isn't the same as 15 years coaching. It is just not, or even close. I see all in intangibles of potential greatness in Kevin, I do. Even a short stint as a coach is all we need to be convinced or know we were wrong.

It is simply never mentioned. Go back and look, I've noticed. And no it's not the same as even being an assistant coach. Nonetheless, as many of us have pointed out quite a few times, there are benefits associated with it that an assistant coach doesn't have access to.

 

[upstater]

Heh, yeah right. You know it all, I guess.

Following along to the posts.

 

[UConnDan97]

You know what we should do? We should ask the finest basketball consultant that the University of Connecticut can find to evaluate whether or not it's the right move to hire Kevin Ollie. That should settle it once and for all.

What? Jim Calhoun is still in the department? Okay, let's ask him!! We can't get a better consultant than that when it comes to knowing bball. What does he say? Oh, yeah, that's right....

...have faith in Calhoun's judgment, everyone. He cares more about UConn basketball than anyone I can think of (except for me), so I'll defer to him...

 

[Waquoit]

Not really impressed by a 17-11 CUSA record, not at all. Hobbs did better than that.

Without context, that is such a ridiculous comment I can't believe it was made by an academic.

 

[whaler11]

You know what we should do? We should ask the finest basketball consultant that the University of Connecticut can find to evaluate whether or not it's the right move to hire Kevin Ollie. That should settle it once and for all.

What? Jim Calhoun is still in the department? Okay, let's ask him!! We can't get a better consultant than that when it comes to knowing bball. What does he say? Oh, yeah, that's right....

...have faith in Calhoun's judgment, everyone. He cares more about UConn basketball than anyone I can think of (except for me), so I'll defer to him...

While I certainly value his opinion and I'm ok with what has happened - he isn't exactly an unbiased observer. The timing didn't allow it but no reason why a search that included Ollie wouldn't be the right direction.

Hopefully he sets world on fire and no need come March.

 

[UConnDan97]

While I certainly value his opinion and I'm ok with what has happened - he isn't exactly an unbiased observer. The timing didn't allow it but no reason why a search that included Ollie wouldn't be the right direction.

Hopefully he sets world on fire and no need come March.

I'm actually COUNTING on the fact that his opinion is biased!! It's biased in a direction of protecting his legacy at UConn. That's the key for me. There is nobody on the planet that would want UConn men's basketball to succeed more than Jim Calhoun, because it's the house that he built. He's not going to help put someone into that spot that he believes would jeopardize that house.

A search conducted by someone who has been wearing a UConn hat for 10 months or so doesn't really hold the same weight with me. That might seem unfair of me to say, but that's certainly how I feel about it...

 

[Waquoit]

...have faith in Calhoun's judgment, everyone. He cares more about UConn basketball than anyone I can think of (except for me), so I'll defer to him...

Sorry, I just can't give blind faith to a guy who has put his continually put his personal agenda before the good of my favorite program. One may say you can't blame him, that's fair. But if you do, you can't rightly claim he cares more than than anyone about UConn basketball. Remember, it wasn't too long ago that he was saying that he wasn't going to ask former players to contribute to the new BB facility because it wasn't the right thing to do. Now it is?

 

[Waquoit]

He's not going to help put someone into that spot that he believes would jeopardize that house.

Probably not, but Ollie was the only JC guy on the planet had a chance of getting the job. And he only got it because of the timing that JC controlled. Having one of his guys as HC is vital for JC's ongoing rehabilitation. He needed his guy in there or else it was over.

But this entire thing with the contract isn't about Ollie, it's about UConn basketball's legacy. Are we UConn basketball fans? Or are we fans of the Jim Calhoun All-Star's in residency at UConn? It's not quite the same thing.

 

[upstater]

Without context, that is such a ridiculous comment I can't believe it was made by an academic.

Apparently, now it's ridiculous for academics (hey, how about rocket scientists!!!!) not to be impressed by 17-11 records in the MAC.

It's OK for ditch diggers to be unimpressed by that however.