Warde Manual ... this ain't UBuffalo

[upstater]

What are you talking about? He got hired to be the head coach of an elite Division 1 basketball program. He has 0 games career in being a division 1 basketball coach.

To sit here and say he's less risky than a Shaka Smart, who has proven he can Coach a team to a Final 4 is lunacy. Take off the Husky colored glasses for a second and realize what you're saying.

A lot of you guys think anyone can just stand on the sidelines and roll the ball and be good. Who knows if he'll be good? Nobody. That's kind of my whole point for christ sake.

Give me the proven commodity over the complete unknown everyday of the week.

Wow, crazy. Thousands of coaches have been hired without being head coaches. Some of the most accomplished ones did it.

And I didn't say he's less risky. You're making that up. I said he could have more going for him, like all the things I listed. Smrt doesn't have an NBA background, NBA people behind him, nor does he have the history of the UConn program behind him and all that that entails.

That was one nutty post from you.

 

[Dann]

donovan had less of a career on the court than KO. then he was a ast somewhere i forget. then he coached 2 or 3 years at marshall before taking the florida job. thats not much to go on is it? i'll take KO's career and couple years under JC's wing any day over what donovan had on his resume. while KO may have never been a HC, he has guys on his bench who have been, he has JC still around for when hes needed. KO is the next 30 years of my life as far as i'm concerned.

 

[ConnHuskBask]

Wow, crazy. Thousands of coaches have been hired without being head coaches. Some of the most accomplished ones did it.

And I didn't say he's less risky. You're making that up. I said he could have more going for him, like all the things I listed. Smrt doesn't have an NBA background, NBA people behind him, nor does he have the history of the UConn program behind him and all that that entails.

That was one nutty post from you.

Name some coaches with less total coaching experience than Ollie that have gone on to be successful? He's been an assistant for two seasons. He has 0 years of head coaching experience and only 2 years of assistant coach experience.

Below is your exact quote I referenced when referring Smart and Ollie. Why could Ollie be a home run, but Smart couldn't?

You gotta shoot for the stars. The list of coaches that have won a few games in March Madness and then flamed out is as long as Nile. Even Karl Hobbs had his team ranked #5 in the country late in the season. Ollie could be a home run here, a coach for whom many future NBAers come to play. No one can say that about Shaka Smart.

 

[Dann]

donovan had less of a career on the court than KO. then he was a ast somewhere i forget. then he coached 2 or 3 years at marshall before taking the florida job. thats not much to go on is it? i'll take KO's career and couple years under JC's wing any day over what donovan had on his resume. while KO may have never been a HC, he has guys on his bench who have been, he has JC still around for when hes needed. KO is the next 30 years of my life as far as i'm concerned.

to go a bit more, dont get me wrong i like donovan. him and miller i would sign up for 2moro as hc at uconn. they are the only 2 i wouldnt question right now. any one else i would over giving KO a chance. the problem is those 2 would cost a lot and i dont think uconn would be able to pay them enough to come bak to the northeast to do so. that being what it is, is another reason KO is the right guy. he contract will build up $ wise over years here but it will be a nice $$ saver for uconn till that point, good buy if u will. for the record if u put donovan up at uconn, he would recruit on par with UK, no joke.

 

[upstater]

Name some coaches with less total coaching experience than Ollie that have gone on to be successful? He's been an assistant for two seasons. He has 0 years of head coaching experience and only 2 years of assistant coach experience.

Below is your exact quote I referenced when referring Smart and Ollie. Why could Ollie be a home run, but Smart couldn't?

So, you're going to dismiss his many years of playing basketball just like that? Counts for nothing? Look at Pastner. Billy Donovan has more in common with Ollie than he does with others. Yes, he had more assistant coaching, but not much. his time at Marshall was underwhelming, to say the least. Mike Hopkins is slated to take over at Syracuse. What do you think of that?

My quote shows why Ollie could b a home run, and why Smart doesn't have those notches, so I'm not sure why you're asking about what is self-evident.

 

[HuskyHawk]

So, you're going to dismiss his many years of playing basketball just like that? Counts for nothing? Look at Pastner. Billy Donovan has more in common with Ollie than he does with others. Yes, he had more assistant coaching, but not much. his time at Marshall was underwhelming, to say the least. Mike Hopkins is slated to take over at Syracuse. What do you think of that?

My quote shows why Ollie could b a home run, and why Smart doesn't have those notches, so I'm not sure why you're asking about what is self-evident.

Donovan had coached at least one game. Florida was able to see whether he was competent in that capacity. Therefore, he was a guy, like Ollie, with lots of upside. There was also a floor. You saw what he did at Marshall, that was the floor. Ollie has no floor. I agree on the upside. And if they had at least let him sub for Calhoun last year, we could have gotten enough of a look at him to get a sense of his floor. He could be the worst game coach in history. He could be truly and spectacularly awful. I think the odds of that are close to zero. But the reality is, that since he's never coached a single game, not even AAU or high school, nobody knows. It is that "unknown" that necessitates a one year contract. By late winter he'll be known. He'll have a floor. Then the university can decide if the upside is worth the investment given the potential downside. Today that evaluation is impossible or would be answered "no".

Mr. Smart by the way, has loads of upside, and very high floor. A floor much higher than Donovan's was coming from Marshall. He's won big with a mid major with no real budget or fancy practice facility, with no time on TV. I think Mark Few has a really high floor, as he helped build an enduring program at a small school with no advantages.

Now, to your point about searches, yes, sometimes the people conducting the seach look only at the floor. That leads to hires like PP. His floor is his ceiling. There's no upside. That's a bad hire. That's hiring Leitao or Howie D. I love that KO is getting a chance because his upside is so high. Doc Rivers high. But I fully understand why the school had to protect itself, and the taxpayer's money, from a possible costly mistake. If it were a pro team, with a rich owner, well hell, sign him long term and pay him when you fire him. That's irresponsible at a public U.

 

[businesslawyer]

Interim does nothing for US. I hope it means that his few months gives Warde Manual a basis to give him a real contract so that he can set a team in the Spring signing period. I agree with Fishy when he said this is 50/50. Ollie has a shot ... but a tough one.

SEE ARKANSAS football for evidence of what not to do.

I am on the fence as to whether we should hire KO or do a search. But your point is totally consistent with my belief that they intend to do a search, and KO is merely in charge until the search gets done next winter.

 

[upstater]

Donovan had coached at least one game. Florida was able to see whether he was competent in that capacity. Therefore, he was a guy, like Ollie, with lots of upside. There was also a floor. You saw what he did at Marshall, that was the floor. Ollie has no floor. I agree on the upside. And if they had at least let him sub for Calhoun last year, we could have gotten enough of a look at him to get a sense of his floor. He could be the worst game coach in history. He could be truly and spectacularly awful. I think the odds of that are close to zero. But the reality is, that since he's never coached a single game, not even AAU or high school, nobody knows. It is that "unknown" that necessitates a one year contract. By late winter he'll be known. He'll have a floor. Then the university can decide if the upside is worth the investment given the potential downside. Today that evaluation is impossible or would be answered "no".

Mr. Smart by the way, has loads of upside, and very high floor. A floor much higher than Donovan's was coming from Marshall. He's won big with a mid major with no real budget or fancy practice facility, with no time on TV. I think Mark Few has a really high floor, as he helped build an enduring program at a small school with no advantages.

Now, to your point about searches, yes, sometimes the people conducting the seach look only at the floor. That leads to hires like PP. His floor is his ceiling. There's no upside. That's a bad hire. That's hiring Leitao or Howie D. I love that KO is getting a chance because his upside is so high. Doc Rivers high. But I fully understand why the school had to protect itself, and the taxpayer's money, from a possible costly mistake. If it were a pro team, with a rich owner, well hell, sign him long term and pay him when you fire him. That's irresponsible at a public U.

One, you can't judge how Donovan would do based on Marshall. I mean, Hobbs did better than Donovan in his stint in mid-major-dom.

Two, Ollie could flop. Then you could fire him. Whether he has one year or three years, it makes no difference. What's the point in allowing him to recruit with one hand behind his back? Don't get it.

What are we talking about here anyway? $300 x 3 = $900k - $300k for this year = $600k. UConn is risking everything over $600k? Really? With this much at stake?

Smart does not have the upside you think he does.

I mean, suddenly everyone is concerned about taxpayer's money. Where has all this concern been in the past? Where was it with football?

 

[upstater]

I am on the fence as to whether we should hire KO or do a search. But your point is totally consistent with my belief that they intend to do a search, and KO is merely in charge until the search gets done next winter.

I only wonder, how can you possibly conduct a search when:

1. Your interim coach is still recruiting for the school (I assume Ollie will be allowed to recruit during the search)

and...

2. Will Ollie be part of the search, because if he is, some candidates will surely not want to be associated with it when you have an inside person being considered.

Manuel will have to say, at some point, that Ollie is not being considered for the position. That has happened in these situations before. I know the PSU case is totally a wildcard, but the people there said this to Tom Bradley and then announced it long before the Sandusky case broke. It's not unusual to tell an interim coach he won't be considered for precisely these reasons. You want to attract the best candidate pool possible.

 

[uc1974]

I have always maintained that picking a successful coach, a president, or (by birth) a monarch is almost as random as throwing at a dart board. It's also sort of like winning the Medal of Honor. You cannot predict who will do the extraordinary thing(s) in a particular situation. I like KO because he seems to be a decent person and seems to know his BB stuff. Does that translate to success? None of us know, really.

 

[businesslawyer]

I only wonder, how can you possibly conduct a search when:

1. Your interim coach is still recruiting for the school (I assume Ollie will be allowed to recruit during the search)

and...

2. Will Ollie be part of the search, because if he is, some candidates will surely not want to be associated with it when you have an inside person being considered.

Manuel will have to say, at some point, that Ollie is not being considered for the position. That has happened in these situations before. I know the PSU case is totally a wildcard, but the people there said this to Tom Bradley and then announced it long before the Sandusky case broke. It's not unusual to tell an interim coach he won't be considered for precisely these reasons. You want to attract the best candidate pool possible.

It is difficult. But schools recruit new coaches over their current coach all the time.

 

[businesslawyer]

Smart does not have the upside you think he does.

I don't understand this sentiment at all. He's taken a team with mid-major talent to the Final Four and won some conference championships. I don't need him to have upside -- I just need him to keep doing what he's done at on a better platform.

Is there a risk he won't succeed recruiting Top Ten level players in the northeast? Of course there is. That risk exists any time a coach moves up the pecking order or moves to another geographic area. But he's shown the ability to recruit players who can take his current school to a level of success that would have been viewed as unobtainable. I'll certainly take that as a starting point. (I'm not advocating for Smart to be coach over Ollie, by the way -- as I said earlier I'm on the fence about KO having the job long term -- but to think you can not look into it or dismiss the likelihood of him succeeding in Storrs I don't get). And, for what it's worth, there is a risk that KO can't recruit the same players to play for KO that he was able to recruit to play for the best basketball coach of his generation.

 

[upstater]

I don't understand this sentiment at all. He's taken a team with mid-major talent to the Final Four and won some conference championships. I don't need him to have upside -- I just need him to keep doing what he's done at on a better platform.

Is there a risk he won't succeed recruiting Top Ten level players in the northeast? Of course there is. That risk exists any time a coach moves up the pecking order or moves to another geographic area. But he's shown the ability to recruit players who can take his current school to a level of success that would have been viewed as unobtainable. I'll certainly take that as a starting point. (I'm not advocating for Smart to be coach over Ollie, by the way -- as I said earlier I'm on the fence about KO having the job long term -- but to think you can not look into it or dismiss the likelihood of him succeeding in Storrs I don't get). And, for what it's worth, there is a risk that KO can't recruit the same players to play for KO that he was able to recruit to play for the best basketball coach of his generation.

My comment was specifically tied to the list above that I was discussing with HuskBask. Ollie has the potential to capitalize on the fact that he played in the NBA for over a decade, his connections to the NBA (including players like LeBron and coaches and management), his ties to Calhoun and also the UConn NBA alums who will be more tethered to the program, among other assets. HuskBask's reply never acknowledges these potential advantages Ollie has over Smart, and he then compares Smart to Donovan and says his floor is much higher than Donovan's at Marshall. I don't think so. Donovan has made himself a success precisely because of how connected he is, his short experience as a pro, but mainly because he was a heady guard who evidently knew the game, and he had his backers who propped him up (like Ollie has) despite his relatively short coaching experience. These are advantages over Smart.

I would not be disappointed if Smart were the coach, but I do think Ollie could be a home run that Smart can't be right now.

 

[freescooter]

Upstater, do you look for any facts before you write things? Billy Donovan spent 6 years as an assistant at Kentucky under one Rick Pitino who was a pretty fair coach, then went to Marshall as head coach for 2 years where he took a team that had won 9 whole games the year before he arrived and turned that into 18 wins his first year. You guys try to make it sound like he had never seen a basketball game before Florida hired him. Yeesh.

 

[upstater]

Upstater, do you look for any facts before you write things? Billy Donovan spent 6 years as an assistant at Kentucky under one Rick Pitino who was a pretty fair coach, then went to Marshall as head coach for 2 years where he took a team that had won 9 whole games the year before he arrived and turned that into 18 wins his first year. You guys try to make it sound like he had never seen a basketball game before Florida hired him. Yeesh.

Your facts are wrong. He wasn't at Kentucky for 6 years.

He was there for 5 years. After playing pro ball. How'd he do in his second year at Marshall? And even Hobbs brought his mid-major to #5 in the country.

Let's face it, Donovan got that job for the reasons I mentioned above. he was a heady PG, had Pitino in his corner, had played some pro ball. Not very different than Ollie's story, only Ollie played 13 years in the pros as a PG.

You should read the last sentence you wrote and replace the name Donovan with Ollie and the you with I.

 

[freescooter]

Ok 5 years. I read 1989-94 but I guess 5 seasons is more accurate. Compared to 2 for Ollie.
Then 2 years as a head coach where he tokk a program that was in the dumper, had gone 9-21 the season before and turned it into 18-9 and 17-11. yes he got the Florida job partly on Pitino's recommendation but he had 7 years experience, the last two as a head coach, too. It isn't even vaguely comparable to Jim Ollie's experience.

 

[Carl Spackler]

I have always maintained that picking a successful coach, a president, or (by birth) a monarch is almost as random as throwing at a dart board. It's also sort of like winning the Medal of Honor. You cannot predict who will do the extraordinary thing(s) in a particular situation. I like KO because he seems to be a decent person and seems to know his BB stuff. Does that translate to success? None of us know, really.

All you can do, is set up a list of criteria of what you're looking for in a coach, and then find people that fit it. To me, the most important thing that an intercollegiate sports head coach (no matter what sport / division of competition) must be able to do - is successfully recruit athletes to the program that fit the universities standards, and are able to compete at the necessary level of competition (which doesn't have to be the 'desired' level of competition)

Previous experience as a head coach is desireable, but not necessary. Recruiting is the most important job an intercollegiate sports head coach has.

 

[businesslawyer]

All you can do, is set up a list of criteria of what you're looking for in a coach, and then find people that fit it. To me, the most important thing that an intercollegiate sports head coach (no matter what sport / division of competition) must be able to do - is successfully recruit athletes to the program that fit the universities standards, and are able to compete at the necessary level of competition (which doesn't have to be the 'desired' level of competition)

Previous experience as a head coach is desireable, but not necessary. Recruiting is the most important job an intercollegiate sports head coach has.

Without downplaying recruiting, because it is of obvious importance, your post explains why Greg Schiano won all those championships.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Without downplaying recruiting, because it is of obvious importance, your post explains why Greg Schiano won all those championships.

You mean the championship trophies awarded for the highest rated recruiting classes by some computer flunky's with websites leaching off the college football recruiting world right? THen yes, it says exactly that. If you're referring to the trophy cases in the University of New Jersey athletic complex buildings, well then I'm not sure how my post explains anything. So BL - you old stick in the mud. Why don't you just sit on it. LOL

After last nights debate, - enjoy this count pointer count. It's essentially what I that our incumbent was thinking every time the challenger spoke.

 

[HuskyHawk]

One, you can't judge how Donovan would do based on Marshall. I mean, Hobbs did better than Donovan in his stint in mid-major-dom.

Two, Ollie could flop. Then you could fire him. Whether he has one year or three years, it makes no difference. What's the point in allowing him to recruit with one hand behind his back? Don't get it.

What are we talking about here anyway? $300 x 3 = $900k - $300k for this year = $600k. UConn is risking everything over $600k? Really? With this much at stake?

Smart does not have the upside you think he does.

I mean, suddenly everyone is concerned about taxpayer's money. Where has all this concern been in the past? Where was it with football?

His annual salary is $648k. He's only being paid from September to April, so it is less this year. So $1.3m to the taxpayer. Who cares? Really? Why do that on a guy you're not sold on. He is not recruiting with one hand tied behind his back. It will have no effect on recruiting. As you say, he could be fired anyway.

 

[Pudge]

No effect?

You are clueless.

 

[HuskyHawk]

No effect?

You are clueless.

You are all assuming an effect. Where is it? Where is the evidence? Are there any kids looking at UConn or are they just hanging up on him when he calls? You really think that a kid who wants to come to UConn will come if Ollie has a 2-3 year deal but not if he has a 1 year deal? You think they even know how long a coach's contract is in most cases? Sure there will be negative recruiting, but the ban and the fact that KO is an unknown are bigger targets there. Calhoun has been a possibility to either call it quits or retire due to illness, including his bouts with cancer, for several years. Still they came. What about when KO's in the last year of that three year deal? What then? You extend even if you're not sold on him because you don't want to disrupt recruiting? It's a bunch of whining over nothing. Thank God Kevin isn't crying about it.

 

[upstater]

His annual salary is $648k. He's only being paid from September to April, so it is less this year. So $1.3m to the taxpayer. Who cares? Really? Why do that on a guy you're not sold on. He is not recruiting with one hand tied behind his back. It will have no effect on recruiting. As you say, he could be fired anyway.

What is this taxpayer stuff anyway? Maybe they should eliminate UConn football too? Meanwhile they ant to raise $50 million for a basketball practice center. Great spend $50 million there. Then don't recruit top players. Great planning.

 

[upstater]

Ok 5 years. I read 1989-94 but I guess 5 seasons is more accurate. Compared to 2 for Ollie.
Then 2 years as a head coach where he tokk a program that was in the dumper, had gone 9-21 the season before and turned it into 18-9 and 17-11. yes he got the Florida job partly on Pitino's recommendation but he had 7 years experience, the last two as a head coach, too. It isn't even vaguely comparable to Jim Ollie's experience.

Jim Ollie?

Anyway, Donovan had somewhat more experience, clearly was not the most experienced. Not really impressed by a 17-11 CUSA record, not at all. Hobbs did better than that.

Way to totally diminish Ollie's 13 NBA seasons. Congrats. They count for nothing with you.

 

[upstater]

1. You really think that a kid who wants to come to UConn will come if Ollie has a 2-3 year deal but not if he has a 1 year deal? 2. You think they even know how long a coach's contract is in most cases? 3. Sure there will be negative recruiting, but the ban and the fact that KO is an unknown are bigger targets there. 4. Calhoun has been a possibility to either call it quits or retire due to illness, including his bouts with cancer, for several years. Still they came. 5. What about when KO's in the last year of that three year deal? What then? You extend even if you're not sold on him because you don't want to disrupt recruiting? It's a bunch of whining over nothing. 6. Thank God Kevin isn't crying about it.

1. Yes
2. Many will point it out
3. What ban? There is no ban next year
4. Because of Ollie. Herbst has been telling people KO's the coach
5. Coaches who stand a chance of being retained are extended. Regularly. You never heard of this before? Seriously?
6. When your AD has no faith in you, it impacts recruiting. When your friends and UConn alum and former NBAers threaten the AD, it has an impact.

 

[huskymedic]

1. Yes
2. Many will point it out
3. What ban? There is no ban next year
4. Because of Ollie. Herbst has been telling people KO's the coach
5. Coaches who stand a chance of being retained are extended. Regularly. You never heard of this before? Seriously?
6. When your AD has no faith in you, it impacts recruiting. When your friends and UConn alum and former NBAers threaten the AD, it has an impact.

I've stayed clear of this mess for the most part but back up the second sentence in #6. You lost me there.

 

[upstater]

I've stayed clear of this mess for the most part but back up the second sentence in #6. You lost me there.

Donny Marshall's comments.

 

[The Funster]

My question is if Calhoun employed a little gamesmanship to ensure Ollie got the job. Had JC announced earlier, say May or June, it's possible that the new AD could have done a search and perhaps landed another coach or, if he deemed him the man for the job, signed Ollie for a longer term. Waiting as he did, Calhoun basically forced Ollie in and in so doing put both Manuel and by extension JC's own guy behind the 8 ball. I don't blame Manuel one bit for doing this. He is the AD and while Calhoun is a giant, and deservedly so, he has to give the AD some latitude to establish his authority within the schools heirarchy.

I don't know how successful Warde Manuel will be as the AD. However, I do know that it would be a bad precedent if he knuckled under and just gave Ollie a 3 year deal just because JC wanted him to. Puppet AD's don't work out very well.

 

[upstater]

My question is if Calhoun employed a little gamesmanship to ensure Ollie got the job. Had JC announced earlier, say May or June, it's possible that the new AD could have done a search and perhaps landed another coach or, if he deemed him the man for the job, signed Ollie for a longer term. Waiting as he did, Calhoun basically forced Ollie in and in so doing put both Manuel and by extension JC's own guy behind the 8 ball. I don't blame Manuel one bit for doing this. He is the AD and while Calhoun is a giant, and deservedly so, he has to give the AD some latitude to establish his authority within the schools heirarchy.

I don't know how successful Warde Manuel will be as the AD. However, I do know that it would be a bad precedent if he knuckled under and just gave Ollie a 3 year deal just because JC wanted him to. Puppet AD's don't work out very well.

First, Calhoun broke his hip. Second, how do you conduct an open search with an inside candidate when recruits have reported (last year) that the President implied Ollie would take over? Third, I don't get this idea about puppet ADs. What's their competency? Is Darryl Gross insulted at Syracuse because Boeheim chose Mike Hopkins as his successor? Did it happen at all the other places that named coaches in waiting?

 

[HuskyHawk]

First, Calhoun broke his hip. Second, how do you conduct an open search with an inside candidate when recruits have reported (last year) that the President implied Ollie would take over? Third, I don't get this idea about puppet ADs. What's their competency? Is Darryl Gross insulted at Syracuse because Boeheim chose Mike Hopkins as his successor? Did it happen at all the other places that named coaches in waiting?

We didn't name a coach in waiting. Calhoun wanted UConn to do that and was rejected. Breaking his hip only means that it is possible that JC didn't delay on purpose. I still think he probably did. Either way it doesn't matter. There was no coach in waiting. There was no time for a search. So they hired a guy for a year. It could have been Hobbs. Maybe it should have been. This is so obvious that I don't understand all this constant bitching and whining. Kevin Ollie has become some kind of sacred cow or something. He was an interesting potential candidate and a nice former player. Nothing more. But since the school didn't get to find out whether he was the best candidate (which is far from clear), he got the job anyway. Now we can all move on and hope he brings the program to its previous heights. Everybody is pulling for him to succeed. But nobody in his or her right mind thinks that whether he does or does not succeed will be determined by the length of his initial contract.

The #1 recruit in the whole freaking country just put us on his list and welcomed Ollie for a visit. Does that sound like one hand is tied behind his back? Now will we get him? Who knows...the competition is fierce and JC almost never landed these guys.

As for Syracuse, Boeheim didn't name Hopkins his successor, the university did. The AD, the administration reached a contract with him. They made the decision. They did it, in part, because he was a hot property and was getting offers from Charlotte etc. None of that is the case here. It might have been, in time, but it wasn't.