VaTech 67, TN 63, final

[BroadwayVa]

I suspect Warlick will likely be retained after this season on the benefit of this recent successful and highly touted recruiting class - she'll be given the opportunity to coach this group, I would think, for at least a couple of years (unless something drastic occurs, like a couple of early transfers, a la UNC 2013). If she can get them eventually to that elusive 1st Final Four, then I would think she is in a more secure position.

She will also be given the benefit of the doubt due to her strong post-season record - her teams have gone to the semifinals or deeper of the SEC tournament every year of her tenure (winning it in 2014); and she has made the Sweet 16 or Elite 8 every year of the NCAA's. A lot of coaches would feel good with that track record. But Holly follows a legend, in a program that has known elite status for decades, though not of late. Tough position with little or no wiggle.

I do agree her teams do not pass the eye test of disciplined practiced offense. I sometimes wonder if she and her staff have yet to understand what motivates the current generation of student-athletes. That they are operating out of a dated model that expected more maturity and focus.

Come on Chuck---The Vols barely got by JMU --until the 4th quarter --a Mid Major, in a tiny pond. Kenny Brooks (Va Tech) took over an less than successful team, recently, without time to recruit or put his stamp on this team--and THEY BEAT --the VOLs??
The Admin and Fans of UTn must be wondering about Holly.
With the level of talent Holly has had--I'm reluctant to say this--but if any of the other top 10 coaches had this team--MY OpinION--the outcomes these past few years would have been different.

 

[meyers7]

That was what I was wondering. HW comes up with her first decent, indeed good, recruiting year. Then she goes out and chalks up two really ugly losses. What must those recruits be thinking?

I'm gonna get all kinds of playing time next season.

 

[BroadwayVa]

I think it speaks to why every summer another person publishes a 'guide' to parents and players on how to approach the recruiting process - what questions to ask, what issues to look for, how to cut through the sales pitch and dog and pony show that schools put on, and make an informed rational choice.

And it is why your inbox and mailbox are full of offers of free credit, and career advancement, and magic pills, and ... And while we all think we are sophisticated enough to see through all this clutter, pretty much everyone has fallen victim to something in a sales pitch that didn't quite pan out the way we thought. We humans like to be flattered and appreciated and told how good we are - a smile and a pat on the back go a long way to making our day better. 16 year olds don't have the life experiences that help curb the enthusiasms of older folks, but a lot of older folks are equally susceptible, so the parents desperately want the dreams for their children that they are being sold.

I'd sign up to any thing that had a great Dog and/or pony show. I try never to miss them.

When my kids were growing up---they were suckered in by nearly every --unbelievable tale of success, beauty, financial patter.
They were told the OLD---if it appears too good to be true--it usually is--AND--always ask what's in it for them--what's in it for you.
The tale of the shoe store salesman was the only man in town to love to have families of 5 or greater to come into his store--WhY??

 

[CocoHusky]

I must disagree. The cupboard has hardly been bare in Knoxville since 2006:

Candace Parker
Shanna Zolman
Alexis Hornbuckle
Nicky Anosike (Geno recruited her hard)
Brianna Bass
Angie Bjorklund
Glory Johnson
Shekinna Strickland
Bashaara Graves
Ariel Massengale (Geno recruited her, too, but eventually backed off)
Taber Spani (Geno also recruited her hard)
#1 Mercedes Russell
#1 Diamond DeShields

Talent is NOT the problem at Tennessee.

Don't forget:
Cierra Burdick #3
& Izzy Harrison #29
and Megan Simmons # 24
& Taber Spani
and 'Draya Carter #21
& Janah Tucker #8
and Jamie Nared #6
& T'ea Cooper # 12
and Alexa Middleton #28

 

[BroadwayVa]

What I find surprising is that it is not just the head coach that is the issue - I think Holly is a good 'manager' - it is the role she played successfully for Pat for years, but in a basketball sense is overmatched in knowledge and understanding, and I suspect doesn't 'see' what is important in a basketball sense. Geno and most good coaches can look at five minutes of game action and give a solid critique of all the players on the court, what they are doing well as a team, and where they need work, and what each players strengths and weaknesses are, and how to start correcting them. I think Holly looks at that same five minutes and needs to check the box score to figure out which team is better and which team rebounds better. And even with that, she could be a decent HC if she had good assistants who can see those things she can't and were empowered to make changes and coach the players. I think there are some pretty successful coaches who are better managers than coaches, but they recognize their own weaknesses and surround themselves with very talented and motivated assistants. And that is where I think Holly has really failed - I don't see any signs that any of the assistants is doing anything more than punching a clock an cashing their paycheck.

I was really surprised when leaving my theater career and going into a B to B service career, when we went to visit F500 companies and fairly high level managers were completely incompetent - private business is always touted as this efficient machine, but these folks would have been ejected from a theater business in seconds. And what was always interesting was that you could bet that the staff these incompetents had hired below them were even dimmer bulbs - they didn't want to be challenged from below in their little fiefdoms. I bring this little personal history up because that is the way I view the TN coaching staff. I don't see Holly as a good coach or teacher, and it just seems she has surrounded herself with assistants that are if anything worse, or who have lost any fire they had and are just playing out the string until they get their pension. As others note, the lack of appreciable development for the talent TN continues to get is glaring. Which assistant works with guards and can't teach Massingale or Simmons what a good shot looks like in four years, who worked with Graves who may have been the most talented player coming into TN of any of their bigs, and succeeds in extinguishing that talent. Those issues fall squarely on the assistants as well as on the HC.

I agree with --if she had good assistants who know the game and how to make "in game' corrections she'd be a great coach--but why would an assistant that good want to work with Holly?? She should have hired Kenny Brooks two years ago and offered him 200,000 per year and he'd have jumped--.
Any Head Coach worth his or her pay knows that ---the total responsibility for her/his team belongs to the HC--if the assistants don't do the job--that's on the HC--but that assumes the HC knows what to do.
Smart managers/coaches/ hire subordinates who know the job, are innovative, and intelligent--knowing they'll stay only for a short time--but you milk them while you can--and department/team looks great. Insecure managers--avoid them.

You look at a number of other programs and think the HC is somewhat limited, or that they win in spite of their HC, but those same programs that have success have a steady stream of high quality assistants cycling through - or better still find those assistants and make it comfortable for them to stay for longer stints.

 

[BroadwayVa]

I must disagree. The cupboard has hardly been bare in Knoxville since 2006:

Candace Parker
Shanna Zolman
Alexis Hornbuckle
Nicky Anosike (Geno recruited her hard)
Brianna Bass
Angie Bjorklund
Glory Johnson
Shekinna Strickland
Bashaara Graves
Ariel Massengale (Geno recruited her, too, but eventually backed off)
Taber Spani (Geno also recruited her hard)
#1 Mercedes Russell
#1 Diamond DeShields

Talent is NOT the problem at Tennessee.

Add to this list all those ROLE players who did the job and made The Vols into a top team. They were never without Top players
Kara Lawson--isn't among those on your list--I didn't like her much after she and her team beat Uconn at the Civic center-now she's my favorite TV analyst.

 

[CocoHusky]

Kara Lawson--isn't among those on your list--I didn't like her much after she and her team beat Uconn at the Civic center-now she's my favorite TV analyst.

@HuskyNan was referencing talent in Knoxville since 2006 which would have excluded Kara but would certainly include Vicki Baugh #5???.

 

[CocoHusky]

My guess is that a significant percentage of this generation's young woman, really don't believe that they need good coaching, having received precious little of it throughout their HS and AAU careers (goes for DD as well).
They think that their natural talent will just carry their team to triumph, like it always has.
Oh boy, are they about to be schooled.

Unfortunately not many or enough will be schooled in a way that will make a real difference. I agree that this is a generational thing, not limited to young women though. Besides the instant gratification of this generation too many are also being taught that that there is nothing greater than themselves. This makes teaching lessons about sacrifice, team, growth, and winning championships increasingly harder to deliver because the immature mind will always reason: "Because there is nothing greater than me I don't need to sacrifice and grown & of course I'm going to win a championship(s)."

 

[vtcwbuff]

Based on that, I see her leaving at the end of this season for the WNBA, to TN's advantage. Hopefully, she will find her way, there.

That's assuming the WNBA wants her. Her stats aren't exactly first round pick material. Just looking at her numbers she can't shoot and she can't take care of the ball so where did her rep come from? High school?

 

[EricSD]

For all the Holly bashing Tenn fans want to heap on her, the reality is that her record in the NCAA's is something most other fan bases would envy. In fact, almost all fan bases would envy it. Couple that with her excellent recruiting class out of 2017, and I would be SHOCKED if they got rid of Holly any time soon.

Tenn fans need to remember that one of the reasons they recruited so well for the 2017 class is because of the coaches, and their relationships they built with the players AND their families. Not all coaching staffs spend THAT much time recruiting kids. Ohio State and L'ville are 2 programs that have taken YEARS to build their programs into what should be perennial top 10 teams going forward. But look at the rest of the top teams in WCBB - they almost ALL have seasoned coaches who are legends at their respective schools.

1. UCONN - Geno
2. ND - Muffet
3. SC - Dawn
4. Baylor - Kim
5. FSU - Sue Semrau
6. Maryland - Brenda
7. Stanford - Tara
8. Mississippi State - Vic Schaefer
9. L'ville - Walz (since 2007)

Teams like OSU (McGuff - 2013), UCLA (Close - 2011), Texas (Aston 2012), and Tennessee (Warlick - 2012) are all relatively new coaches. Tenn fans are realizing that there is no way to duplicate what Pat brought to the program prior to her departure. And replacing Warlick may get a more energized coach with better X's and O's, but it won't make recruiting better - Tennessee is simply not a destination school for anyone (location, quality of education, etc).

Warlick's recruiting has been consistently in the top 10 since she took over. As the Tenn fan pointed out, she's landed multiple top 10 kids since she took over. I just don't see how that AD or administration has any cause to let her go, other than Tenn fans unrealistic expectations of their place in the WCBB universe...

 

[CocoHusky]

Based on that, I see her leaving at the end of this season for the WNBA, to TN's advantage. Hopefully, she will find her way, there.
That's assuming the WNBA wants her. Her stats aren't exactly first round pick material. Just looking at her numbers she can't shoot and she can't take care of the ball so where did her rep come from? High school?

The WNBA is full of coaches (just like college) who will fully believe they have the magic formula to unlock the perceived potential in DD. DD will go in the first round of this draft without a doubt- might go first overall. DD life correction will only come from a grown woman whose livelihood is dependent on Diamond being a better more reliable teammate. For right now TN and all the players there are extremely happy to have her.

 

[donalddoowop]

I watched on the ESPN watch app

Thank you.

 

[JoePgh]

For all the Holly bashing Tenn fans want to heap on her, the reality is that her record in the NCAA's is something most other fan bases would envy. In fact, almost all fan bases would envy it. Couple that with her excellent recruiting class out of 2017, and I would be SHOCKED if they got rid of Holly any time soon.

Tenn fans need to remember that one of the reasons they recruited so well for the 2017 class is because of the coaches, and their relationships they built with the players AND their families. Not all coaching staffs spend THAT much time recruiting kids. Ohio State and L'ville are 2 programs that have taken YEARS to build their programs into what should be perennial top 10 teams going forward. But look at the rest of the top teams in WCBB - they almost ALL have seasoned coaches who are legends at their respective schools.
...
Teams like OSU (McGuff - 2013), UCLA (Close - 2011), Texas (Aston 2012), and Tennessee (Warlick - 2012) are all relatively new coaches. Tenn fans are realizing that there is no way to duplicate what Pat brought to the program prior to her departure. And replacing Warlick may get a more energized coach with better X's and O's, but it won't make recruiting better - Tennessee is simply not a destination school for anyone (location, quality of education, etc).

Warlick's recruiting has been consistently in the top 10 since she took over. As the Tenn fan pointed out, she's landed multiple top 10 kids since she took over. I just don't see how that AD or administration has any cause to let her go, other than Tenn fans unrealistic expectations of their place in the WCBB universe...

I confessed in another thread to being completely at a loss to understand the thought process of the three 2017 recruits (or at least the two 2017 Top 15 recruits from outside Tennessee) who are coming to Knoxville. Maybe the Vol coaches' relationships with high school coaches explains it. But at some point, players are going to have to realize that they won't develop very much there (never mind winning an NC), and that may put their WNBA and Olympic dreams in jeopardy.

As to whether the AD or the administration "has any cause to let her go", I would say that having that talent level and then losing so many regular season games, and then ONLY making the Elite 8, is plenty of reason to do so. But maybe they will wait until Tennessee fails to make the NCAA tournament, or has an extended recruiting drought, before they pull the trigger. I know some Boneyarders hope that day never comes, but really, WCBB needs a strong Tennessee program to really thrive.

 

[j66kicker]

As to whether the AD or the administration "has any cause to let her go", I would say that having that talent level and then losing so many regular season games, and then ONLY making the Elite 8, is plenty of reason to do so. But maybe they will wait until Tennessee fails to make the NCAA tournament, or has an extended recruiting drought, before they pull the trigger. I know some Boneyarders hope that day never comes, but really, WCBB needs a strong Tennessee program to really thrive.

Why?

 

[RockyMTblue2]

WCBB needs a strong Tennessee program to really thrive.

Seriously Joe? You're too smart to believe that. Not in the second decade of the 21st century.

 

[baggerbob]

The WNBA is full of coaches (just like college) who will fully believe they have the magic formula to unlock the perceived potential in DD. DD will go in the first round of this draft without a doubt- might go first overall. DD life correction will only come from a grown woman whose livelihood is dependent on Diamond being a better more reliable teammate. For right now TN and all the players there are extremely happy to have her.

Probably the only coach in the WNBA who could coach DD would be Bill, because she would sit if she didn't play his way.

 

[EricSD]

I know some Boneyarders hope that day never comes, but really, WCBB needs a strong Tennessee program to really thrive.

Not at all. WCBB is more popular than ever - especially with the rise/rebirth of many programs - SC, Baylor, UCLA, Texas, OSU, L'ville, etc etc. Not to mention UCONN and ND - the 2 most premier programs at this time. It's like saying baseball needs the Yankees to be popular or basketball needs the Lakers to make a profit. It's simply not true.

Same goes for Tennessee. They had a great run, like La Tech, Cheney State, USC, ODU, etc. Their time came and went, and Tennessee is following suit. WCBB does not "need" any one team. Same will be true of UCONN if/when our time comes to decline.

 

[Carnac]

Will Diamond DeShields jump to WNBA at the end of the season?
Or will she avail of the 5th year of eligibility and continue to benefit from Tennessee's coaching to improve her game?

I think DeShields has had enough of WCBB. I'd be shocked if she returns next year. This is going to be a loooooong frustrating year for the lady Vols, one I don't think she'll want to repeat.

One of the 12 WNBA teams will take a chance on her. If she comes out, she'll be taken by the end of he second round. No doubt one of the coaches there thinks they can work with her, and straighten her out. Color her gone.

 

[Justavisitor]

Why?

Due to the number of fans. WCBB struggles with getting fans, as it is. There are some top 10 teams out there that can't get butts in the seats. WCBB is not yet at a place where it can afford to lose such a large fan base.

 

[Justavisitor]

Not at all. WCBB is more popular than ever - especially with the rise/rebirth of many programs - SC, Baylor, UCLA, Texas, OSU, L'ville, etc etc. Not to mention UCONN and ND - the 2 most premier programs at this time. It's like saying baseball needs the Yankees to be popular or basketball needs the Lakers to make a profit. It's simply not true.

Same goes for Tennessee. They had a great run, like La Tech, Cheney State, USC, ODU, etc. Their time came and went, and Tennessee is following suit. WCBB does not "need" any one team. Same will be true of UCONN if/when our time comes to decline.

The NBA didn't think they needed the Boston's of the world, until they did, and that led to allowing one of the most ridiculous trades in the history of the sport.

 

[JoePgh]

I think DeShields has had enough of WCBB. I'd be shocked if she returns next year. This is going to be a loooooong frustrating year for the lady Vols, one I don't think she'll want to repeat.

One of the 12 WNBA teams will take a chance on her. If she comes out, she'll be taken by the end of he second round. No doubt one of the coaches there thinks they can work with her, and straighten her out. Color her gone.

And, agreeing with another poster, I think Bill Laimbeer would most likely be that coach. And he will probably be right. On the other hand, she might bridle at serious coaching, and might prefer to cash it in and only play overseas, where (by most accounts) selfish scorers who put up big numbers and entertain the fans are in vogue.

 

[Justavisitor]

What amazes me is how many of you continue to trash Diamond. It's actually sad that adults that do not know any thing about this young lady and have had no personal interactions or relationships with her hide behind a keyboard and have no problems going after her character. You would think that lesson would have been learned when you did the same thing to Candace Parker, who has since had an entire host of teammates and opponents come to her defense and totally contradict some of the hatred that has been spewed. When does attacking the character of these young, student athletes stop? It's one thing to discuss their basketball abilities or lack there of, but going after their character is simply sad and says more about the poster than it does about her.

 

[CocoHusky]

Probably the only coach in the WNBA who could coach DD would be Bill, because she would sit if she didn't play his way.

I don't care much for "Billy Lamebeer" but he might just be what the doctor ordered.

 

[UcMiami]

For all the Holly bashing Tenn fans want to heap on her, the reality is that her record in the NCAA's is something most other fan bases would envy. In fact, almost all fan bases would envy it. Couple that with her excellent recruiting class out of 2017, and I would be SHOCKED if they got rid of Holly any time soon.

Tenn fans need to remember that one of the reasons they recruited so well for the 2017 class is because of the coaches, and their relationships they built with the players AND their families. Not all coaching staffs spend THAT much time recruiting kids. Ohio State and L'ville are 2 programs that have taken YEARS to build their programs into what should be perennial top 10 teams going forward. But look at the rest of the top teams in WCBB - they almost ALL have seasoned coaches who are legends at their respective schools.

1. UCONN - Geno
2. ND - Muffet
3. SC - Dawn
4. Baylor - Kim
5. FSU - Sue Semrau
6. Maryland - Brenda
7. Stanford - Tara
8. Mississippi State - Vic Schaefer
9. L'ville - Walz (since 2007)

Teams like OSU (McGuff - 2013), UCLA (Close - 2011), Texas (Aston 2012), and Tennessee (Warlick - 2012) are all relatively new coaches. Tenn fans are realizing that there is no way to duplicate what Pat brought to the program prior to her departure. And replacing Warlick may get a more energized coach with better X's and O's, but it won't make recruiting better - Tennessee is simply not a destination school for anyone (location, quality of education, etc).

Warlick's recruiting has been consistently in the top 10 since she took over. As the Tenn fan pointed out, she's landed multiple top 10 kids since she took over. I just don't see how that AD or administration has any cause to let her go, other than Tenn fans unrealistic expectations of their place in the WCBB universe...

Tony - well reasoned, and I think that is the stance of most of the 'give Holly a break' TN fans. People sort of forget some of the history of the program - Pat had a stretch of 8 years without a championship from 1999-2007, but during that period they also made 5 FF and 3 NC games. And they forget that it was already four years since her last championship - a period that included her first opening round loss, a S16, and two elite eight losses - that four year stretch represents the worst 4 year stretch in TN's NCAA history, including the last four years of Holly being the coach. Who knows how much her undiagnosed disease was effecting her coaching at the end, but I don't know that it really made a difference - the basketball landscape around her was changing rapidly and I am not sure she had the capacity to significant change her system. We will never know.

What I think is of concern for TN is that Holly is very much 'continuing Pat's legacy' - she is not a creative basketball mind, and is trying to do everything she learned and saw as one of Pat's loyal assistants. And she is living on Pat's legacy in terms of recruiting - Pat built a world class program with top of the line facilities and staffing and the reputation for years as the destination for top end talent - like Storrs and Uconn, the actual location didn't and still doesn't matter that much to HS WBB players. The change is that not only is Uconn an equally good choice now, but so are SC, and ND, and Stanford, and Louisville, and MD, and Baylor, and TX, and ... when Pat and Geno started the options for HS talent were pretty limited with a bit of rotation but never extending that broadly.While Holly has continued to land high quality recruits, I think it is as much 'Tennessee' as Holly that is the attraction.

When you look around the landscape the universe of 'old school' coaches has dwindled significantly - a few have hung on because of inertia - they are institutions at their institutions and live on in reputation. I actually think of Holly in that light - she is new to the HCing profession, but has been in place for 30+ years. The ones that actually succeed do so because they are students of the game and adapt, the others play out their string with recruiting success as much a matter of reputation as anything they actually bring to the table - and recruiting success still goes a long way to having a winning record as a college coach, which in turn keeps the recruits coming.

And administrators are much more lenient in WCBB - don't make waves, don't lose more than you win, and don't create a scandal, and you'll have a job as long as you want it. I think that is JPM's situation at Duke, it was certainly Andy's at Georgia, and I think it is likely Holly's at TN - the loyal fan bases may be screaming loudly, but the ADs don't really hear that amidst the cacophony coming from the FB and MCBB fans.

 

[reno tony]

What amazes me is how many of you continue to trash Diamond. It's actually sad that adults that do not know any thing about this young lady and have had no personal interactions or relationships with her hide behind a keyboard and have no problems going after her character. You would think that lesson would have been learned when you did the same thing to Candace Parker, who has since had an entire host of teammates and opponents come to her defense and totally contradict some of the hatred that has been spewed. When does attacking the character of these young, student athletes stop? It's one thing to discuss their basketball abilities or lack there of, but going after their character is simply sad and says more about the poster than it does about her.

I will say something nice about DD. I love her sense of humor. During an interview she was asked if she was the best player to ever come out of Georgia and she answered "Yes!" When reminded that Maya Moore came from Georgia and did DD still think she was the best she answered "Absolutely." How can a person not like a woman who comes up with a joke like that during a serious interview.

 

[BroadwayVa]

Unfortunately not many or enough will be schooled in a way that will make a real difference. I agree that this is a generational thing, not limited to young women though. Besides the instant gratification of this generation too many are also being taught that that there is nothing greater than themselves. This makes teaching lessons about sacrifice, team, growth, and winning championships increasingly harder to deliver because the immature mind will always reason: "Because there is nothing greater than me I don't need to sacrifice and grown & of course I'm going to win a championship(s)."

A number of years ago, I thought seriously about getting into AAU WBB--now this may or may not have been a local issue (not in Broadway), in the questioning of the leaders it became clear they did no 'teaching/training'--lots of playing. I have doubts this is a nation wide approach. \
Coco --you know more about this--is that the trend or was this localized??

 

[RockyMTblue2]

A number of years ago, I thought seriously about getting into AAU WBB--now this may or may not have been a local issue (not in Broadway), in the questioning of the leaders it became clear they did no 'teaching/training'--lots of playing. I have doubts this is a nation wide approach. \
Coco --you know more about this--is that the trend or was this localized??

Very coy B'Va: Let's be real. Geno has been outspoken for years that AAU ball is very much part of the problem everywhere. Here's one. Geno Auriemma UConn Coach

Make no mistake, AAU is a money making enterprise for a bunch of can't coach, but can promote dudes.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

Also this angle on the whole AAU parade: Several women's basketball programs to boycott recruiting weekend

If I'm hopscotching around the country in the fall playing lookey lookey how is that helping the kids on my college team?

 

[j66kicker]

Due to the number of fans. WCBB struggles with getting fans, as it is. There are some top 10 teams out there that can't get butts in the seats. WCBB is not yet at a place where it can afford to lose such a large fan base.

Good point. It's only Knoxville that would benefit from keeping those fans though. Away crowds still come out to see and root against the LadyVols. Anyway, I still don't care if TN ever wins another game. Sorry - just a "UCONN" thang...

 

[j66kicker]

What amazes me is how many of you continue to trash Diamond. It's actually sad that adults that do not know any thing about this young lady and have had no personal interactions or relationships with her hide behind a keyboard and have no problems going after her character. You would think that lesson would have been learned when you did the same thing to Candace Parker, who has since had an entire host of teammates and opponents come to her defense and totally contradict some of the hatred that has been spewed. When does attacking the character of these young, student athletes stop? It's one thing to discuss their basketball abilities or lack there of, but going after their character is simply sad and says more about the poster than it does about her.

Couple points:
1) I don't like the comparison with Candace - Candace was actually a great player and carried her teams to championships.
2) All I've seen/heard is Candace's "basketball" character being questioned - taking plays off, not playing defense, needing to be the focus of the offense, etc. To me her teammates coming to her defense publicly is not a vindication. I have eyes.