UConn never had a chance for the ACC....

[upstater]

FSU's interest and the southern bias which includes RayCom's business territory were mutual.

Fans like the Charlotte Mafia angle with UNC screwing FSU but FSU knows their Tier 3 isn't worth that much for that one lousy game a year against a hair dressing school. The RayCom portion of the ESPN contract was revealed to be ~ $4.5 million and now higher with Louisville for which RayCom would pay more into the contract ~ $5.0 mil per team. RayCom can produce Louisville games with little or no additional expense.

How much do you think 1 or 2 FSU games are worth to FSU? Just estimate what those rights are worth.

It was 2 games this year that never made it to a national cable network. How much $$ is that for a school that just lost $15 million last year to athletics? Then take the basketball money that UNC is pocketing (through Raycom?) and subtract the amount FSU is pocketing for its basketball.

That's how much FSU is losing because of UNC's greed.

As for all the kvetching about UConn losing enthusiasm for sports, check this out from 2 years ago: http://jacksonville.com/sports/coll...09-30/story/no-longer-elite-buzz-fsu-football

 

[upstater]

I love the guy. I've fought battles (metaphorically speaking) for the guy. Funny saying this the day after Arnold Dean died, but I used the call that show all the time saying we ought to fire Perno and hire Calhoun. I was happily stunned when they listened to me. I was quoted in the Courant saying that Calhoun was the guy to take us to the promised land. When people said that JC could never win the big one, I told them they were full of . I was all-in for JC and it paid off. But UConn is in a bad spot now because of him. And he hasn't been doing all he can do to make it right. And that might not bother me as much if I wasn't as all-in as I was. I don't like being the fan of an outlaw program.

If you think UConn is an outlaw program, I'd seriously suggest finding another pasttime. I don't like the ugly part of college ball anymore than you do, and I can easily see a point in the near future when I will not watch ANY college sports, but if you think UConn is an outlier, you're mistaken.

 

[upstater]

Very interesting. Raycom is the regional broadcaster that Swofford's kid has a prominent position. The biggest flaw with the ACC deal is that Raycom owns the third tier rights to ACC's football deal. The universities do not get anything from their third tier rights from what people have posted on the conference realignment board. And that impacts FSU and Clemson the most. You have to wonder how much this is a company greasing the wheels. Of course they have no presence in NY, Mass or Penn and the ACC has taken schools from those states. I would have added Indiana but ND did not give the ACC football so Raycom doesn't benefit as much from ND. Raycom benefits from Ville over UConn but not the ACC.

As much as I believe there is going on with underhanded business deals, I still can only come up with one answer. This is a power play by FSU. Ville's football is perceived as better than Uconn but with analysis it isn't significantly greater. And their market is much weaker than UConn's so they are not giving the ACC a market share advantage that UConn could have given them.

FSU is flexing their muscles. They lost WV in the last battle. WV is a legitimate football power with history and current success. It has better academics than Ville. It has a local market disadvantage compared to Ville but WV's addition to the ACC would have balanced the northern and southern leagues. It is a stretch to expect that from Ville. Ville is a wannabe. But why take Ville this time? The only conclusion is FSU wanted to make a statement and not a football or bb statement but a statement to tobacco road, to Swofford and the media that has deals with the ACC. I expect one of two things to happen. The ACC gets a change in the media contracts with ESPN and Raycom. Or FSU bolts to the B12. If that happens the ACC will go the way of the BE. Of course the SEC and the B!G could be catalysts in this process.

And you have a lot of evidence to support you here. Again, in all the craziness of realignment, we've only gone behind the scenes with public statements three times.

1. Gene DeFilippo's crazy boasts about blackballing UConn
2. FSU's board blasting Tobacco Road for stealing money from them
3. UNC--humiliated--comes out with a ridiculously hypocritical comment about academics.

Schools don't issue such public pronouncements lightly, and when they come out, you pay attention. The rest of the public announcements (for instance, UL's comment about pen versus pencil) have PR agendas. But I look at what BC and FSU and UNC have said, and I think: what the hell is the public relations value to those comments? Almost zero. Why is Gene D. bragging? Whi is UNC boohooing about academics?

 

[ctchamps]

How much do you think 1 or 2 FSU games are worth to FSU? Just estimate what those rights are worth.

It was 2 games this year that never made it to a national cable network. How much $$ is that for a school that just lost $15 million last year to athletics? Then take the basketball money that UNC is pocketing (through Raycom?) and subtract the amount FSU is pocketing for its basketball.

That's how much FSU is losing because of UNC's greed.

As for all the kvetching about UConn losing enthusiasm for sports, check this out from 2 years ago: http://jacksonville.com/sports/coll...09-30/story/no-longer-elite-buzz-fsu-football

And there is the issue. The Raycom deal distributed the football rights evenly to all the ACC schools which impacted the better football schools negatively and the weaker football schools (Wake, NCS, NC and Duke) came out ahead. And the converse was true in that the schools kept their bb third tier rights. So Duke and NC come out way ahead over FSU.

It's human nature to feel we are undervalued and someone is overvalued. I'm sure FSU has felt undervalued for a long time. They may have expressed this in the past, but FSU's preference for the ACC prevented them from taking action. I don't believe they reached out to the B12 last round although I feel they were approached by that conference. Everything changed when Md bolted. Now the ACC, always thought to be vulnerable, was proven to be vulnerable. So FSU which had been accommodating to the conference is no longer willing to do so. Either things change significantly to stabilize the conference (big $$$ increases to put the ACC on par with the SEC, PAC, B12 and B!G) or they take the offer from the B12 if they can't get into the SEC.

 

[ctchamps]

upstater you and I are beginning to sound like Mulder on the x files. The problem is this isn't science fiction. People have two faces - the one they want the public to believe is who they are and the one they keep from the public. There is a lot of fire to this smoke that people are ignoring in just licking their wounds about UConn's predicament.

 

[upstater]

upstater you and I are beginning to sound like Mulder on the x files. The problem is this isn't science fiction. People have two faces - the one they want the public to believe is who they are and the one they keep from the public. There is a lot of fire to this smoke that people are ignoring in just licking their wounds about UConn's predicament.

I was a big X-Files fan. I don't think Mulder though had public pronouncements from the horse's mouth in the newspaper. Or maybe he did. In another field (economics), I've been doing some reading that shows not only are journalists and elite policy-makers unwilling to do any research or fact-checking, but the very journalists who wrote exposes and uncovered scandals in the past later develop a severe case of amnesia bout what they themselves have written. I expect journalists to do no research these days, but it's hard to believe they would totally forget what they themselves have written.

 

[ctchamps]

I was a big X-Files fan. I don't think Mulder though had public pronouncements from the horse's mouth in the newspaper. Or maybe he did. In another field (economics), I've been doing some reading that shows not only are journalists and elite policy-makers unwilling to do any research or fact-checking, but the very journalists who wrote exposes and uncovered scandals in the past later develop a severe case of amnesia bout what they themselves have written. I expect journalists to do no research these days, but it's hard to believe they would totally forget what they themselves have written.

People don't need to remember if they aren't held accountable. Freedom of speech is great and I'll fight for it 24/7 but the downside is ........

 

[baggerbob]

You keep saying they gave away football 3rd tier and not basketball, all 3rd tier rights were given away, that's the problem with Raycom. Swofford needs to find a way to correct the problems he created, with the new additions to the league his days may be numbered otherwise. Its safe to say Florida St, Clemson, Miami, Syracuse, Pittsburgh, Virginia Tech, Louisville, Boston College will vote as a block which means North Carolina no longer rules. You might even get Georgia Tech to vote with them, plus Notre Dame will agree with the football schools, even if they don't have a vote.

 

[ctchamps]

You keep saying they gave away football 3rd tier and not basketball, all 3rd tier rights were given away, that's the problem with Raycom. Swofford needs to find a way to correct the problems he created, with the new additions to the league his days may be numbered otherwise. Its safe to say Florida St, Clemson, Miami, Syracuse, Pittsburgh, Virginia Tech, Louisville, Boston College will vote as a block which means North Carolina no longer rules. You might even get Georgia Tech to vote with them, plus Notre Dame will agree with the football schools, even if they don't have a vote.

Do you have a link showing third tier rights for the ACC? upstater is such of font of knowledge I just accept his contention. But even if you are correct, the issue is still the same - FSU gave up far more in the contract than North Carolina or Duke. The BE distribution show how much more monies are given for football than bb.

 

[upstater]

You keep saying they gave away football 3rd tier and not basketball, all 3rd tier rights were given away, that's the problem with Raycom. Swofford needs to find a way to correct the problems he created, with the new additions to the league his days may be numbered otherwise. Its safe to say Florida St, Clemson, Miami, Syracuse, Pittsburgh, Virginia Tech, Louisville, Boston College will vote as a block which means North Carolina no longer rules. You might even get Georgia Tech to vote with them, plus Notre Dame will agree with the football schools, even if they don't have a vote.

This is incorrect. They gave away 3rd tier for football, but not for basketball.

 

[upstater]

Do you have a link showing third tier rights for the ACC? upstater is such of font of knowledge I just accept his contention. But even if you are correct, the issue is still the same - FSU gave up far more in the contract than North Carolina or Duke. The BE distribution show how much more monies are given for football than bb.

http://floridastate.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=1364755

 

[ctchamps]

http://floridastate.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=1364755

Did you fact check the president?

 

[Rumrunner]

The acc did.
http://m.espn.go.com/general/blogs/blogpost?blogname=big12&id=49702

Haggard was disappointed the conference controlled third-tier TV rights for football, but universities held them for basketball. It's more evidence, Haggard said, of the conference favoring the North Carolina-based basketball schools like North Carolina and Duke. However, an ACC spokesman said ESPN controlled the rights for both football and basketball, and that Haggard was mistaken.

Did you fact check the president?

 

[upstater]

The acc did.
http://m.espn.go.com/general/blogs/blogpost?blogname=big12&id=49702

Haggard was disappointed the conference controlled third-tier TV rights for football, but universities held them for basketball. It's more evidence, Haggard said, of the conference favoring the North Carolina-based basketball schools like North Carolina and Duke. However, an ACC spokesman said ESPN controlled the rights for both football and basketball, and that Haggard was mistaken.

Well, I was wrong. Mind boggling that FSU bigwigs would say that--and be wrong. WTF? What makes it even weirder is the chairman openly talked of the Tobacco Road bias in using that incorrect information. So, he was wrong about the facts, and he then blasts the Carolinas for manipulating the conference to their own ends? The facts don't support the case I'm making, but no one can deny that the bias and the bad blood between FSU and Tobacco Road is definitely there. The UNC president's comment reinforces that bad blood.

 

[Rumrunner]

in a macro sense, the acc ceding all of its rights to the acc is even worse. the nepotism and sweetheart deal shown by the acc to raycom has to make those at fsu livid.

while the big 10 is growing its network and the sec is about to begin theirs, the acc is mired in a contract that takes them to 2030. there's no getting around that the acc will see less than half the revenue of the big 10 and sec in just a few years time. and the amounts aren't trivial, $40m for big 10 versus $15-16m for acc in 2016.

it's the hole the acc dug because of swofford's insistence in protecting raycom at the expense of its members.

 

[ctchamps]

The acc did.
http://m.espn.go.com/general/blogs/blogpost?blogname=big12&id=49702

Haggard was disappointed the conference controlled third-tier TV rights for football, but universities held them for basketball. It's more evidence, Haggard said, of the conference favoring the North Carolina-based basketball schools like North Carolina and Duke. However, an ACC spokesman said ESPN controlled the rights for both football and basketball, and that Haggard was mistaken.

An ESPN article quoting an anonymous ACC spokesman isn't a ringing endorsement when it comes to fact checking. Now certainly the FSU president may have gone off after making a mistake in what he read or what he was told by advisors but I'm going to need something more conclusive before coming to a decision.

 

[Rumrunner]

since the contracts are purposefully withheld from public schools bc of foia requests, unless the espn k comes out someplace else, we can only go by what's reported.

however, swofford went to kiss the rings of clemson's bot, and supposedly said the same thing.
http://www.orangeandwhite.com/news/2012/jul/20/accs-john-swofford-clemson-board-trustees-engage-f/

 

[ctchamps]

in a macro sense, the acc ceding all of its rights to the acc is even worse. the nepotism and sweetheart deal shown by the acc to raycom has to make those at fsu livid.

while the big 10 is growing its network and the sec is about to begin theirs, the acc is mired in a contract that takes them to 2030. there's no getting around that the acc will see less than half the revenue of the big 10 and sec in just a few years time. and the amounts aren't trivial, $40m for big 10 versus $15-16m for acc in 2016.

it's the hole the acc dug because of swofford's insistence in protecting raycom at the expense of its members.

Raycom is a much bigger player in all of this UConn vs. Ville talk then Jurich or WM. I still get the impression FSU wants the ACC to stay intact, but the university decision makers are reacting very emotionally right now about a whole slew of things. Even if the ACC spokesperson is correct and FSU President Haggard is incorrect, Haggard's statement demonstrates a tension and frustration within the ACC. And this was before Md. left. Of course I don't know anything about Haggard and he could have a loose cannon temperament.

 

[ctchamps]

since the contracts are purposefully withheld from public schools bc of foia requests, unless the espn k comes out someplace else, we can only go by what's reported.

however, swofford went to kiss the rings of clemson's bot, and supposedly said the same thing.
http://www.orangeandwhite.com/news/2012/jul/20/accs-john-swofford-clemson-board-trustees-engage-f/

Obviously UConn doesn't want to join a conference in which two of the universities are unable to read a contract accurately or intelligently. Nothing in this article about third tier. I do appreciate trying to get to the heart of the matter. If the ACC is correct I would have expected a public retraction by Haggard was in order. That certainly would clarify things.

 

[upstater]

Obviously UConn doesn't want to join a conference in which two of the universities are unable to read a contract accurately or intelligently. Nothing in this article about third tier. I do appreciate trying to get to the heart of the matter. If the ACC is correct I would have expected a public retraction by Haggard was in order. That certainly would clarify things.

The FSU president referenced his apology for public comments based on misinformation, so 'll assume he was referring to the comments made by the chairman of his board.

Rumrunner is right about the macro argument, that the relationship between Swofford and Raycom may still be poisoning the well between UNC and FSU. no doubt they don't like each other.

 

[uconndogs]

http://www.courant.com/sports/uconn-football/hc-uconn-football-1209-20121208,0,2250019.story

Football at Louisville was much better and Jurich did a great job closing what would seemingly have been a tough one for him to lose.

Not real fair to pin this on Manual because he was already behind and had too much room to make up for a win.......but he already failed miserably when noting the message of the major conferences which is put fannies in the seats and put a competitive team on the field every year......

His failure - keeping PP......downright terrible move which will set the football program behind 2-3 more years and keep our mens hoops team playing SMU and Houston for years to come!!

Going back to the original post on this thread. This article has Herbst / Manuel PR written all over it. We had a fine chance for the invite and Jurich played a much better hand. Susan and Ward were working on their sun tans while Jurich saved his athletic department. Yeah, I know, that's hyperbole, but when you are in those positions you need to be aware of perceptions and the perception here absolutely sucks.

 

[RS9999X]

The problem is that the ACC gets very good Tier 3 rights through Raycom. Raycom runs the ACC network, the digital rights, FSU has a very good IMG contract for radio, coaches shows, etc.

The confusion is the way the ESPN contract is structured. The real problem is that ACC Tier I and Tier II rights are of a paltry value (around $12.5 Million of the contract). Take away the basketball and that's around $8.5 million for football which of course FSU could do better by moving when you consider the new bowl and playoff distribution formulas.

It's the case of the team with the best fan draw in a conference beeing squeezed. Like UConn FSU sits at the top of their Conference as a revenue earner and as a likely poaching target

In the oriignal deal RayCom was granted (13 years) for $50M a year to all football and basketball games that are not picked up by ESPN plus all Digital content for the ACC Website and Corporate ACC conference branding deals. Raycom branded this the "ACC Digital Network".

That $4.2 million a year per team is higher today in the $5.2 million range over the life of the longer contract with SU, PItt and LU.

Remember also RayCom picks up production costs, etc. If FSU could sell their one game a year available to Tier 3 and 4 December basketball games for better than $6 million it might be that FSU is losing money here. Then there's the put up and shut up and FSU has yet to ever market that stuff or attempt to market it or broker a deal with RayCom to split additonal revenue 50/50 by marketing it.

 

[RS9999X]

Haggard was a hero for a day. He is a foot in mouth fool .and no longer a trustee.

The whole thing is spin. Raycom pays 32.25% for Tier 3 and Digital Rights and the Corporate Web presence and Corporate Marketing for the ACC. That's nearly $5.8 mil of the new $18 mil average (if that indeed is the correct tweaked figure). That's decent for Tier III. What no one wants to admit is how badly Tier I and Tier II ACC Football is valued if you subtract out another $3.5 mil for basketball. Less than 1/2 the contract is Tier I and II Football despite what Clemson and others claim. The math is simple.

Obviously Notre Dame and the ACC Orange Bowl help with the Football Dsitributions as does the new playoff format revenue distribution.

Make no mistake--no one is paying a premium to broadcast Waste Forest football or Duke.

 

[Waquoit]

Going back to the original post on this thread. This article has Herbst / Manuel PR written all over it.

Exactly, and that's sad. We shouldn't be the target audience for their PR campaign.

 

[upstater]

The problem is that the ACC gets very good Tier 3 rights through Raycom. Raycom runs the ACC network, the digital rights, FSU has a very good IMG contract for radio, coaches shows, etc.

The confusion is the way the ESPN contract is structured. The real problem is that ACC Tier I and Tier II rights are of a paltry value (around $12.5 Million of the contract). Take away the basketball and that's around $8.5 million for football which of course FSU could do better by moving when you consider the new bowl and playoff distribution formulas.

It's the case of the team with the best fan draw in a conference beeing squeezed. Like UConn FSU sits at the top of their Conference as a revenue earner and as a likely poaching target

In the oriignal deal RayCom was granted (13 years) for $50M a year to all football and basketball games that are not picked up by ESPN plus all Digital content for the ACC Website and Corporate ACC conference branding deals. Raycom branded this the "ACC Digital Network".

That $4.2 million a year per team is higher today in the $5.2 million range over the life of the longer contract with SU, PItt and LU.

Remember also RayCom picks up production costs, etc. If FSU could sell their one game a year available to Tier 3 and 4 December basketball games for better than $6 million it might be that FSU is losing money here. Then there's the put up and shut up and FSU has yet to ever market that stuff or attempt to market it or broker a deal with RayCom to split additonal revenue 50/50 by marketing it.

First off, it was 2 football games for FSU this year. So, why would only football have to grab more than $5.2m? It would be the basketball, the 2 football, not to mention the baseball, that would have to beat that $5m figure. and I'm not catching you on production costs. SNY picks up production costs for UConn, so... why is that relevant?