Tough Decisions Ahead for Lady Vols [merged thread]

[Wbbfan1]

Hoopgurlz - Link

Article states what some have been saying since the season started.

 

[alexrgct]

Yikes- that's not going to go over well in some circles. Glenn has some pretty serious cajones to write something like that. One thing to say it on a UConn board, or even a Tennessee board, but no one in the media has come out and stated the position he's advancing, valid though it may be.

He really likes him some Kaela Davis. Wonder where she does end up. Btw, she has not officially eliminated Tennessee from her list of possibles. So she could yet end up in Knoxville if Tennessee figures put what story to tell recruits. That's something they should have been figuring out since the story of Pat's condition broke, by the way. "We don't know" may be honest, but it's not what a kid with options wants to hear.

 

[Tonyc]

Perhaps Pats condition had been apparent for a few years now and thats why kids left. Tenn officials have waited to long and now who every takes over has to start from scratch. What Pat build may take a long time to rebuild. We all saw this coming and its been talked about. Losing to SC last night sets the program spirolling down even further.

 

[Kevin G]

Oh boy! Is this the beginning of the end?!

 

[msf22b]

I don't know about "years," but certainly last year there was something noticeably wrong.
This senior group has always been a problem for the Tennessee coaches, has had a lot of injuries and has never quite lived up to the potential that they appeared to have in HS. Now, they are just not playing at their foreseen level.
Discomfort with the level of play and its effect on recruiting is all over the Tennessee board.
One particularly singular piece is a despairing 15-minute rant posted last eve on You Tube



I sympathize with the administration's seemingly passive stance.
I also fret that a similar crisis a highly ranked class that just doesn't function very well combined with some weakness in the coaching staff could happen anywhere; even here.

 

[Wbbfan1]

IMHO if the Lady Vols appoint an apparent successor to Pat, Kaela Davis will end up at Tenn. That's been her dream school and the only question she has is, who's going to be the head coach when Pat decides to retire. My only caveat to the above, is I'm not sure if she goes to Tenn, if the future head coach is a member of the existing coaching staff.

She and her family speculate that Pat is not going to be the coach for her four years. I'm sure they have asked members of the Tenn Athletic Department and probably Pat herself how long are you going to coach. I suspect Pat and others have told them, we don't know. The next obvious question, who's going to be the head coach when you do retire, again I speculate they're being told, we don't know.

Tenn is still an elite program, but others such as Baylor, ND, Duke are beginning to catch up to them. While they probably never will match the number of wins that Pat has; no one will; or even National Championships, they are gaining ground. I don't think Tenn will ever go away like La Tech and ODU has, but they could lose stature and become just another one of the good but not elite programs. IMHO they need to name Pat's successor before the start of next year and answer questions that the 2013 recruiting class have, who is going to be the Head Coach when Pat decides to retire. Tenn has the players they just need a dynamic Head Coach to lead them.

 

[alexrgct]

It will be interesting to see what happens at Tennessee from a succession standpoint. Tennessee has been willing to pony up big bucks for Pat, so the money is there if they want it to be to hire virtually anybody. But how much of Tennessee's success depended on Pat? Sometimes you have the right coach at the right time, and she certainly was that. Will someone else be able to come in and live up to the expectations of the fanbase? It's a tall order. If I'm well-compensated and secure in my current position, I don't know that I jump. Would you rather make $800,000 guaranteed until you decide to retire (like Sherri Coale, who by the way wouldn't be a bad hire for them), or would you rather make $1.5 million with the threat of losing your job being very real?

 

[lcjeff]

I don't know about "years," but certainly last year there was something noticeably wrong.
This senior group has always been a problem for the Tennessee coaches, has had a lot of injuries and has never quite lived up to the potential that they appeared to have in HS. Now, they are just not playing at their foreseen level.
Discomfort with the level of play and its effect on recruiting is all over the Tennessee board.
One particularly singular piece is a despairing 15-minute rant posted last eve on You Tube



I sympathize with the administration's seemingly passive stance.
I also fret that a similar crisis a highly ranked class that just doesn't function very well combined with some weakness in the coaching staff could happen anywhere; even here.

There is a lot of truth both in msf's post and the words of the young lady in the video.I always feared deep down that if the program ever "went down",it would do so quickly and not over a period of time.For those of you who are UConn fans that are celebrating what is going on here,the very same thing can also happen in Storrs.If it can happen here,it can happen anywhere.Old Dominion,Texas, and Louisiana Tech are example of once very good programs who are now afterthoughts.Throw in USC if you want.
Sadly,too many on my own board are too busy rehashing the Uconn feud to pay attention to what's going on.This senior class should be DOMINANT,yet they stammer and sputter like an old engine that's just rusting away.While other programs are on the rise,we're content to sit on our laurels and pretend that we're still the same program we were 10 years ago.
Not long ago I had the AUDACITY to say good things about Geno amd the UConn program on the Summitt and got excoriated for it.Sadly,too many fans are blinded to reality because bashing other programs takes less effort than accepting reality.I'm in a vocal minority that feels that we need a coach from outside the program.Holly Warlick will be more of the same.We need a coach who will come in and establish an offense that can compete in today's climate.Sadly,we'll keep it "in the family" and continue to underperform.Many won't care or notice.I won't be one of them.

 

[Joe6cats]

Discomfort with the level of play and its effect on recruiting is all over the Tennessee board.
One particularly singular piece is a despairing 15-minute rant posted last eve on You Tube

Thanks Msf22b for posting this very moving piece. Watching the ugly decline of an old rival, a partner with us in some of the best NCAA basketball ever played, is bitter-sweet. Like seeing a bad accident, you both want to turn away from it and stare in fascination. Hearing passionate fans diss their own players, even their stricken coach for not doing more(!), is sad in a way that goes beyond sports rivalries. Love Pat or hate her, this shouldn't be happening this way.

 

[meyers7]

On the other hand, while I think they do need to decide what they are going to do (and maybe they have), should a university such as TN allow a recruit (a jr at that) to dictate when and how they should proceed?

 

[alexrgct]

On the other hand, while I think they do need to decide what they are going to do (and maybe they have), should a university such as TN allow a recruit (a jr at that) to dictate when and how they should proceed?

No, but it should emphasize/underscore that there is an urgency there. One recruit, no matter how good, is not worth forcing your hand, but if her concerns are representative of what you've been hearing on the recruiting trail from other kids, it may be wise to act sooner rather than later. The Candace Parkers, Chamique Holdsclaws, Tamika Catchingses, and Bridgette Gordons of the world don't grow on trees, and the next player like that may not be seriously considering Tennessee right now.

 

[meyers7]

No, but it should emphasize/underscore that there is an urgency there. One recruit, no matter how good, is not worth forcing your hand, but if her concerns are representative of what you've been hearing on the recruiting trail from other kids, it may be wise to act sooner rather than later. The Candace Parkers, Chamique Holdsclaws, Tamika Catchingses, and Bridgette Gordons of the world don't grow on trees, and the next player like that may not be seriously considering Tennessee right now.

Agreed.

 

[semper]

So you are the AD at UT...what do you do? Pat has been suffering this stuff for years now I think, and it just finally got so bad that she announced, etc. But her behavior, as we all know, has been erratic for several years. It a terrible thing to compare pictures from just 8 years ago to now. No one on this board is gloating or laughing; we are all just very sad about it.
They need to either 1) do a fast search for a new coach, and get someone high energy, smart, and ready to work hard for the program: Waltz or Coale would be fine. Or 2) hire some luminary who is about to retire to run things for a couple of years until they catch their breath, and can do the search. Either of these would send the message that needs sending: there is going to be a regime change.

 

[jdubct]

It will be interesting to see what happens at Tennessee from a succession standpoint. Tennessee has been willing to pony up big bucks for Pat, so the money is there if they want it to be to hire virtually anybody. But how much of Tennessee's success depended on Pat? Sometimes you have the right coach at the right time, and she certainly was that. Will someone else be able to come in and live up to the expectations of the fanbase? It's a tall order. If I'm well-compensated and secure in my current position, I don't know that I jump. Would you rather make $800,000 guaranteed until you decide to retire (like Sherri Coale, who by the way wouldn't be a bad hire for them), or would you rather make $1.5 million with the threat of losing your job being very real?

I'd take the $1.5 milllion with a five-year contract.

 

[UcMiami]

Sadly,too many on my own board are too busy rehashing the Uconn feud to pay attention to what's going on.This senior class should be DOMINANT,yet they stammer and sputter like an old engine that's just rusting away.While other programs are on the rise,we're content to sit on our laurels and pretend that we're still the same program we were 10 years ago.

IC - I almost never check the TN board, but I was so curious to gauge reaction there last night that I did visit. What surprised me most were:
1. There is a general feeling that Pat is still completely in control of the team, and of her disease. That what she wants is absolutely what will happen in terms of how long she coaches, etc. I have a little personal experience with this disease, and 'want' is not really part of the equation.
2. The feeling that 'negative recruiting' is so rampant and is being used against Pat, and specifically came into play with Davis' decision. I think the reality is that any recruiter that even mentions TN or Pat at this point would tarnish their chance of landing a recruit. The recruit and her family would see it as 'ugly'. Recruits and their parents are pretty wired in to the WCBB world, and they are very 'selfish' in their approach to the process. TN's problem is they are a program in flux and no one can at this time give an answer to who will be coaching next year, let alone four years from now. You are asking a commit to sign a pretty restrictive four year contract, and you need to present a compelling reason to do so. Until TN can answer that question, they will have a hard time recruiting top tier players.
3. The idea that they could name a 'HC in waiting' for sometime in the distant future who is not already on staff. As if someone with the qualifications to lead TN would make that commitment. Even hiring someone at the end of this season with HC credentials at any $ number to be an assistant for an uspecified term with Pat still in charge is going to be a very tough sell.
4. The trashing of this senior class. I understand that some players never reach the potential they exhibited in HS, and team chemistry is a mysterious beast, but for such a heralded class to all underacheive (if they have) some of the finger pointing needs to be directed at the coaching. Especially this year, with everything that has happened and with this three headed coaching situation, I don't think any team would be playing to their potential. I understand fan(atic)s and emotional reactions in sports, but I do find the trashing of these young women distateful and somewhat misdirected.

IC glad you came and posted on our board
Mods - I hope this doesn't break board rules re discussion of other boards. If it does, please just delete. And thank you for generally discouraging our baser instincts on this board. I really appreciate the generally civil and respectful discussion here.

 

[earl the pearl]

Even as a UCONN fan Tenn's problems are very difficult to watch. They are in a tough position. How do you push out a basketball icon? The sad truth is the longer she stays the worse things will get. The only way out is for Pat to decide to retire at the end of the year and annouce it as soon as possible.

 

[Stray Cat]

OMG, someone at UT needs to silence the voice of the LV's!!

Discussing one point, "Margo" says: "She (PHS) is already handing it (head coaching duties) over...they (the LV's) obviously aren't gonna get it done without her...you got Holly screaming this and Mickie screaming that...these assistants are just that...assistants....this team can not survive is she (PHS) doesn't do it (coach the team)...it's not going to happen."

And then immediately after questioning the validity of the assistants to serve as the collective head coaches of the LV's she contradicts herself by saying this:

"Kaela Davis de-commits from UT...it's funny because Holly and all of them (other assistant coaches) have been with Pat Summitt forever, and yet these recruits don't have enough faith in them to commit to UT."

Hey Margo, if you don't have faith in the current LV assistant coaches to lead the team, then how do you expect the current players and recruits to have faith in them?

Seriously, the powers that be should just shut down the UT message board as the venom being spewed by it's own fans is only going to get worse as the "situation" at UT continues to decline. LV fans shouldn't be pointing the finger at the media and opposing fans/coaches about negative recruiting...heck, LV fans are doing enough of this on their own, starting with this epic piece of work by Margo.

 

[HuskyNan]

Mods - I hope this doesn't break board rules re discussion of other boards. If it does, please just delete. And thank you for generally discouraging our baser instincts on this board. I really appreciate the generally civil and respectful discussion here.

To clarify - we don't want trash talk or incendiary comments directed towards UConn or Boneyarders brought over. We would like to avoid starting any flame wars here.

 

[HuskyNan]

Seriously, the powers that be should just shut down the UT message board as the venom being spewed by it's own fans is only going to get worse as the "situation" at UT continues to decline.

Tenn could no more shut down the Summit than UConn could shut down the Boneyard. Now, if UConn e-mailed me and asked me to remove something I would seriously consider it but no message board is under any obligation to follow directives from UConn. Likewise with the LV board.

 

[Stray Cat]

Tenn could no more shut down the Summit than UConn could shut down the Boneyard. Now, if UConn e-mailed me and asked me to remove something I would seriously consider it but no message board is under any obligation to follow directives from UConn. Likewise with the LV board.

No, I am specifically referring to the board mods like Maria. While she has a vested interest in The Summitt, she is also a fan of the LV's and has to know that what is happening at The Summitt right now is not healthy for the LV program. I have seen message boards at other sites "blown up" from time to time. If you want some real entertainment, try visiting the ND message board after the football team loses, which has been quite often the past decade.

 

[EricLA]

a couple of thoughts...

the article states "But the perception has spilled over, and no elite prospect in the 2013 class or beyond so far has revealed herself to be a Tennessee lean. Stating all this is not piling on by Tennessee haters. It's as plain as the smartphone in every teenager's hand. It's what a lot of recruits and their families already were contemplating; Davis' decision to re-weigh her options simply cast it all in Klieg lights."

which means, aside from Davis, who i assume is a Tennessee lean, no other kid from 2013 (Russell, Muvunga, Deshields, Reimer, Scaife, etc etc) have said Tennessee is in the lead or that they are a lean for them. most likely because there is no permanent/future HC there. you can't name a HC in waiting if it comes from another program because that program will pretty much shut down until they name a new HC there, and no recruiting will be done at that other school (if NC State's Harper or LSU's Caldwell were the choice for example)...

i think possibly the best HC for their future would be a really strong x's and o's coach from a really strong mid major like Green Bay who has led their team to a lot of success in spite of. i think that would be the best for UCONN too. people keep talking about Rizotti as the next UCONN HC, and yet, she's had little success recruiting top players to Hartford, and has had nowhere near the success that the HC of Wisc Green Bay, or Gonzaga for example, has had.

that's why i think keeping it in the family could be a mistake for either program. Has Jamelle, Tonya, or Jen EVER recruited a top 25 kid? or a top 50 kid? i realize that all 3 are doing the best with what they have, but the same goes for Harper and Caldwell. this is UCLA's first year without NIkki, and they are horrible - with kids she recruited over the past 3-4 years. she inherited Markel Walker, and now Forthan at LSU, but what top kids has she gotten on her own?

and maybe someone like Walz, Mitchell (Kentucky) or Coale would be available for Tennessee. but it's always easier to come in to a failing program and try to rebuild it than to try to sustain the incredible heights the fans currently expect. certainly not an easy time for the program, and something i bet the UCONN admin is watching closely to learn from when the inevitable time comes for Geno to move on...

 

[UcMiami]

Jen and Tonya are also squarely in the mid major group, and while Jen has not recruited any top 25 kids she has coached a lot of them with great sucess for USA basketball. I agree that there are some real stars at the mid-major level that would be good choices for a top program, but it is a huge step up to a program like TN because HC is more than Xs and Os and recruiting - it is also managing a huge budget and allocating resources on a whole different level. Going with a previous D1 coach, whatever the record is not a slam dunk of course (see GG/Texas!)

 

[HuskyNan]

No, I am specifically referring to the board mods like Maria. While she has a vested interest in The Summitt, she is also a fan of the LV's and has to know that what is happening at The Summitt right now is not healthy for the LV program. I have seen message boards at other sites "blown up" from time to time. If you want some real entertainment, try visiting the ND message board after the football team loses, which has been quite often the past decade.

Fans need a place to be with other fans to commiserate, vent, etc. Whether the venting is appropriate for a board is a moderator's decision which usually follows the general feelings of the forum members. As long as the members and moderators are satisfied the board is serving its purpose, as defined by the forum's community, then it will continue as it does.

 

[trb123]

A few heretics among LV fans have actually said "Nothing but the best for TN" or something to that effect. That would be Geno Auriemma of the UCONN Huskies. This is largely unknown in LV kingdom. Anyway "Nothing but the second best for TN" has a nice ring to it.

 

[Wbbfan1]

Pat Forde - Link

Good read.