Tough Decisions Ahead for Lady Vols [merged thread]

[meyers7]

Tennessee will not pull the rug out from Pat, recognizing that they owe her so much. They are clearly determined to let her step down with respect. And that is how it should be.

I believethat at the end of this season, Pat's son Tyler may be called upon to be the liaison between the administration and Pat to facilitate a graceful and dignified voluntary retirement.

Meanwhile the administration is surely compiling a list of potential replacements for Pat that may or may not include Holly, Mickie or Dean. They will likely contact those on the list immediately upon completion of their teams' season. For those under long-term contract elsewhere it may be necessary to seek permission to make contact. In any event the administration will move quickly and be prepared to make a generous offer.

Recruiting will surely suffer in the short term but that is unfortunate and unavoidable. The administration can live more easily with that than repeat mistakes made with the Kiffin (football) and Pearl (men's basketball) hires.

It will take a couple down years in both recruiting and performance while the transition is made from Pat to her replacement. Whether Tennessee can once again claim its traditional position at or very near the top of wcbb depends on who is hired as HC and, to some extent, who are hired as assistants.

I would think that a newly hired HC would want to bring in his/her own assistants since their role in recruiting is vital to future success.

And, very honestly, I wish them well.

Agree, except for the wishing them (TN) well part of course.

 

[speedoo]

Can't see any coach willing to come into that situation unless it's a current Asst. or a former player. Coaching with a memory/ghost like that around is hard enough, let alone when the memory/ghost is still actually there.

Money talks. Guarantee enough money for enough years and a lot of coaches will listen and seriously consider making the move. Even a guy like Walz who seemingly has his dream job would think about it. Mitchell, even more so considering his prior experience at TN. Several other less obvious names IMO. Considering both the current team's performance and an apparently dismal recruiting outlook (for those taking a realistic point of view) you could say this program at or near the bottom. The right person would need several things: 1. a guaranteed long term contract, 2. total support from the University including full control over the program meaning selecting their own staff, generous budget for recruiting etc., and complete PR support to get through the tough years until the light at the end of the tunnel is seen, and perhaps most important, 3. a solid, functional relationship with Summitt that allows the new coach to have all decision making authority (meaning, unfortunately, none for Summitt) but also has Summitt's very visible support for PR purposes.

The right person, given the right support and enough time, could create a legacy of their own: the coach who rescued the TN program.

Can it be done? IMO yes. Will it be done? The odds do not favor it.... too many question marks, like does the University have smart enough people to get it done, can they find and acquire the right person, and tons of questions about Summitt.

As for recruiting, forget the 2013 class. No way TN can get enough done before that ship sails so they might as well lower their sights and look for some decent players to keep the program afloat. Maybe they can make some headway with the 2014 class, but in later years they can get back in the game as the new coach starts getting some results. I think there will be a minimum of five tough years, starting with 2012-13 for TN.

 

[meyers7]

Money talks. Guarantee enough money for enough years and a lot of coaches will listen and seriously consider making the move. Even a guy like Walz who seemingly has his dream job would think about it. Mitchell, even more so considering his prior experience at TN. Several other less obvious names IMO. Considering both the current team's performance and an apparently dismal recruiting outlook (for those taking a realistic point of view) you could say this program at or near the bottom. The right person would need several things: 1. a guaranteed long term contract, 2. total support from the University including full control over the program meaning selecting their own staff, generous budget for recruiting etc., and complete PR support to get through the tough years until the light at the end of the tunnel is seen, and perhaps most important, 3. a solid, functional relationship with Summitt that allows the new coach to have all decision making authority (meaning, unfortunately, none for Summitt) but also has Summitt's very visible support for PR purposes.

Agreed, that's why I said "that situation" (as was hypothesized). This ^^ situation, maybe. At least ameliorate it.

 

[trb123]

In 2004 UCONN won a 4th NC in 5 years. After 5 straight FF, I was expecting top recruits flocking to UCONN. That did not happen. Instead Commodore Sherwood left for Vandy with her championship ring. It was too late to get a good center for the next season. Misery followed. The Vaughns and the Waners proudly spurned UCONN offers.

Fast forward to 2011. Coach PHS publicly announced her problem. It was too late to recruit a coach for the 2011-12 season. I am not sure extended misery is on the cards. However, many potential recruits are certainly avoiding UTN if not openly spurning offers.

 

[speedoo]

Agreed, that's why I said "that situation" (as was hypothesized). This ^^ situation, maybe. At least ameliorate it.

Right. The current situation is completely dysfunctional and one that no sane, qualified person would consider. The situation has to be fundamentally changed before a new HC can be hired with any reasonable hope for success in the long term. Success in the short term (less than five years) is not possible under any reasonable circumstance.

 

[Wbbfan1]

If Tenn hires the correct coach at the end of this season, 2013 is not lost. Kaela could say, now that the future coaching situation is resolved, I'm going to the school of my dreams and that's Tenn. Other recruits could be excited by the hire and they'll follow Kaela to Tenn. Timing is essential as a new coach should be on board prior to the end of the July AAU events.

Now Tenn and Pat could decide that they're satisfied with the current coaching situation and they make no changes. If that does happen, then they won't have the recruiting class they were hoping for unless Tenn makes it to the Final Four this year.

 

[Samanthabrown3]

Oh boy! Is this the beginning of the end?!

It would be sad if it were the beginning of the end. WCBB wouldn't be what it is today without Tennessee paving the way.

 

[doggydaddy]

If Tenn hires the correct coach at the end of this season, 2013 is not lost. Kaela could say, now that the future coaching situation is resolved, I'm going to the school of my dreams and that's Tenn.

Pat is Tennessee. I would find it hard to believe that it's the institution and not Pat that Davis wants to attend there. I'd be shocked if she decides to renew her commitment Tennessee.

Posted from poolside in Cancun!

 

[Samanthabrown3]

I'd take the $1.5 milllion with a five-year contract.

Then over five years I'd put a ton of money in the bank and then retire.

 

[Husky68]

Very few coaches reach Pat Summit level in college. Wooden, Geno, Bear, Rupp, Coach K, (Calhoun if wins again) - who go out at top or doing very well. Bowden and Paterno waited too long and performance slipped. Ucla, Alabama and Kentucky surely had success later, but not immediately nor was it at the same "high, high" level. To expect Tenn. to win over 25% of the NCAA tournaments going forward or the 8 in 24 years as Pat did from 1987 is pretty high standard. Being Duke of the last 10 years would be considered a failure, no? Or maybe Stanford. And how many teams have been better than those 2 over the last 10 years?
There is little or no chance that Tenn will be in the championship picture over the next 2 years, that could make at least 6 years not making the FF if don't find a way to get there this year. Tenn has never gone more than 3 years between appearances in the FINAL GAME (not just the FF); if they don't make the FINAL GAME this year it will be th 1st time they have gone 4 years without being in one. Tenn has been in 13 of the 30 FINAL GAMES.
Tenn has no chance to be the Tenn of the run Pat made. And I'm not saying that however Geno goes out Uconn will either. Both were unique individuals who had the right thing going at the right time; hard to replicate.

 

[Icebear]

I suspect that all of this may not be coming to a good end. Among the characteristics of Alzheimers and dementia is a certain amount of paranoia. It happens because of fear, misremembering, forgetting and a variety of dynamics all of which work against the patients ability to trust and towards a belief that others are doing these things to them. All of the best intentions and love in the world are sometimes not enough to overcome that fear. It takes real strength to do the right things for the patient despite the distrust it can create. Working to help to preserve the persons dignity sometimes results in the need to act against their appraisal of their self interest.

 

[wes33]

Her son will help her with the toughest decision of her life, look for it soon.

 

[Zorro]

There is a lot of truth both in msf's post and the words of the young lady in the video.I always feared deep down that if the program ever "went down",it would do so quickly and not over a period of time.For those of you who are UConn fans that are celebrating what is going on here,the very same thing can also happen in Storrs.If it can happen here,it can happen anywhere.Old Dominion,Texas, and Louisiana Tech are example of once very good programs who are now afterthoughts.Throw in USC if you want.
Sadly,too many on my own board are too busy rehashing the Uconn feud to pay attention to what's going on.This senior class should be DOMINANT,yet they stammer and sputter like an old engine that's just rusting away.While other programs are on the rise,we're content to sit on our laurels and pretend that we're still the same program we were 10 years ago.
Not long ago I had the AUDACITY to say good things about Geno amd the UConn program on the Summitt and got excoriated for it.Sadly,too many fans are blinded to reality because bashing other programs takes less effort than accepting reality.I'm in a vocal minority that feels that we need a coach from outside the program.Holly Warlick will be more of the same.We need a coach who will come in and establish an offense that can compete in today's climate.Sadly,we'll keep it "in the family" and continue to underperform.Many won't care or notice.I won't be one of them.

Jeff; I don't think anyone on this board is "celebrating" what is going on with Pat. While Pat has certainly taken some criticism over here, it has never risen (sunk) to the level of vituperation that some posters on the Summitt (no need to name them) have used in vilifying Geno. (Back in the good old days of the UT/UConn feuding, it was those UT fans who drew the bulk of the fire from this quarter.)I don't think any of us ever really "hated" Pat, the way many over yonder hate Geno.

If Pat were her old self, yes, there would be a good amount of schadenfreude over here, not least on my part. But Pat is NOT her old self, and that changes the situation drastically. There is just nothing about Alzheimer's that lends itself to celebration. This is not a rivalry situation. Speaking for myself, and, I think, for all of us UConn fans, this is a situation in which the past is past, and everything that happened then fades into unimportance. The old Pat we could rail at; Pat in her new situation has nothing but the best wishes of all of us and our hopes that things go as well as they possibly can under the circumstances. The gravity of the situation trumps any leftover negative feelings.

 

[easttexastrash]

Pat is Tennessee. I would find it hard to believe that it's the institution and not Pat that Davis wants to attend there. I'd be shocked if she decides to renew her commitment Tennessee.

Posted from poolside in Cancun!

Ahhhhh...Cancun. You lucky dog (no pun intended). I'll be out of this miserable snow storm and in Puerto Vallarta next week.

 

[justML]

I suspect that all of this may not be coming to a good end. Among the characteristics of Alzheimers and dementia is a certain amount of paranoia. It happens because of fear, misremembering, forgetting and a variety of dynamics all of which work against the patients ability to trust and towards a belief that others are doing these things to them. All of the best intentions and love in the world are sometimes not enough to overcome that fear. It takes real strength to do the right things for the patient despite the distrust it can create. Working to help to preserve the persons dignity sometimes results in the need to act against their appraisal of their self interest.

After seeing Pat at the ND game I realized that her illness had begun further back than we had been led to believe. It's my opinion that the paranoia you speak of no doubt played some part in Pat's decision to end the series with UConn. I could never understand how, even after her allegations were proven false, Pat could continue to condemn Geno with her silence.

For me, once that realization set in; forgiveness began.

 

[easttexastrash]

After seeing Pat at the ND game I realized that her illness had begun further back than we had been led to believe. It's my opinion that the paranoia you speak of no doubt played some part in Pat's decision to end the series with UConn. I could never understand how, even after her allegations were proven false, Pat could continue to condemn Geno with her silence.

For me, once that realization set in; forgiveness began.

This sort of indicates that Pat knew earlier than she is stating than she did, which I do not believe to be the truth. I believe her when she says that she was diagnosed last year after the season was over. I am not saying that she did not have symptoms earlier, but I do not believe that she mislead anyone for the past few years.

 

[easttexastrash]

I suspect that all of this may not be coming to a good end. Among the characteristics of Alzheimers and dementia is a certain amount of paranoia. It happens because of fear, misremembering, forgetting and a variety of dynamics all of which work against the patients ability to trust and towards a belief that others are doing these things to them. All of the best intentions and love in the world are sometimes not enough to overcome that fear. It takes real strength to do the right things for the patient despite the distrust it can create. Working to help to preserve the persons dignity sometimes results in the need to act against their appraisal of their self interest.

Icebear, this is a very thoughtful post. I appreciate you sharing your experiences as I have not dealt with this horrible medical condition and getting a first hand education about some of its effects is very enlightening. I cannot imagine how difficult this is for Summitt. This is simply not something that one can beat with determination, which we all know she is loaded with.

 

[justML]

This sort of indicates that Pat knew earlier than she is stating than she did, which I do not believe to be the truth. I believe her when she says that she was diagnosed last year after the season was over. I am not saying that she did not have symptoms earlier, but I do not believe that she mislead anyone for the past few years.

Not at all what I was saying so let me clarify. When Pat announced her diagnosis I never doubted that it was indeed made when she said it was. If she was looking to "mislead anyone" she would have stayed silent.

However, I now believe that symptoms of the disease were occurring more than the year before diagnosis. The reason I was so shocked by Pat's appearance at the ND game was because I thought she was at the very onset of the disease. I no longer believe that is true.

I'm not a doctor so I'm basing my opinion on experiences with my own grandmother years before the disease was even called "Alzheimers" and on what I've read. And with all opinions, it's open to other opinions.

 

[Bestiarius]

Very few coaches reach Pat Summit level in college. Wooden, Geno, Bear, Rupp, Coach K, (Calhoun if wins again) - who go out at top or doing very well. Bowden and Paterno waited too long and performance slipped. Ucla, Alabama and Kentucky surely had success later, but not immediately nor was it at the same "high, high" level. To expect Tenn. to win over 25% of the NCAA tournaments going forward or the 8 in 24 years as Pat did from 1987 is pretty high standard. Being Duke of the last 10 years would be considered a failure, no? Or maybe Stanford. And how many teams have been better than those 2 over the last 10 years?
There is little or no chance that Tenn will be in the championship picture over the next 2 years, that could make at least 6 years not making the FF if don't find a way to get there this year. Tenn has never gone more than 3 years between appearances in the FINAL GAME (not just the FF); if they don't make the FINAL GAME this year it will be th 1st time they have gone 4 years without being in one. Tenn has been in 13 of the 30 FINAL GAMES.
Tenn has no chance to be the Tenn of the run Pat made. And I'm not saying that however Geno goes out Uconn will either. Both were unique individuals who had the right thing going at the right time; hard to replicate.

Hasn't Pat coached the LVs for 37 years (this is the 38th)? That would be 21.6% Geno is 7 for 25 or 28%. Definitely harder to replicate NCs than in the early days with so many more girls getting interested and with the increased career prospects post college. But, the potential for pro play make the Pats and Genos of the even more important to the players because they are a springboard to $$. It's naive to think that a big time player will ignore the top programs out of loyalty to a question mark school. So, perhaps the Genos of the world will be more successful in the future.

 

[Bestiarius]

It would be sad if it were the beginning of the end. WCBB wouldn't be what it is today without Tennessee paving the way.

Don't worry, someone else will take it from here and it looks to be Uconn so long as the pesky Baylor, ND, or some other upstart doesn't decide to have a good night.

 

[easttexastrash]

It will be interesting to see which universities benefit most in recruiting from this situation. Please excuse the use of the word benefit. It is not meant in a vulture kind of way.

I suspect that Duke and Baylor are going to be bigger players in recruiting than they have been. Which team in the SEC is going to be the biggest draw for these top recruits in the south who want to stay in the south and not venture off to UCONN or Stanford.

 

[Bestiarius]

Then over five years I'd put a ton of money in the bank and then retire.

If it's a proven coach, I doubt if $1.5 mil will do it. It's a great opportunity to negotiate as long a contract as possible, work 2 years, fail miserably, and live comfortably on the buy out.

 

[UcMiami]

Not at all what I was saying so let me clarify. When Pat announced her diagnosis I never doubted that it was indeed made when she said it was. If she was looking to "mislead anyone" she would have stayed silent.

However, I now believe that symptoms of the disease were occurring more than the year before diagnosis. The reason I was so shocked by Pat's appearance at the ND game was because I thought she was at the very onset of the disease. I no longer believe that is true.

ML - I completely agree (again with no background but a bit of personal experience) regarding the onset. When I saw a bit of a game with TN at least a year ago I was really shocked at Pat's physical appearance, and thought she must have been quite sick with something to have changed appearance so quickly from the year before. While I believed it an 'internal medicine' issue of some sort, I now believe it was actually a manifestation of the current diagnosis. I also think the decision to go to the Mayo Clinic doesn't happen if symptoms are not already quite noticable. The actual beginning could date back a number of years, and could have resulted in quite subtle changes of behavior. I do think the fued with Geno was quite real (a case of oil and water) but it may explain some of the later flare ups.

 

[Icebear]

This sort of indicates that Pat knew earlier than she is stating than she did, which I do not believe to be the truth. I believe her when she says that she was diagnosed last year after the season was over. I am not saying that she did not have symptoms earlier, but I do not believe that she mislead anyone for the past few years.

The average period from onset to diagnosis is 3.2 years. During that time the person does not necessarily know they have a problem until it accrues toward the time of diagnosis.

 

[triaddukefan]

It will be interesting to see which universities benefit most in recruiting from this situation. Please excuse the use of the word benefit. It is not meant in a vulture kind of way.

I suspect that Duke and Baylor are going to be bigger players in recruiting than they have been. Which team in the SEC is going to be the biggest draw for these top recruits in the south who want to stay in the south and not venture off to UCONN or Stanford.

Well if Duke is going to be a bigger player in recruiting then they have been... then I will be one happy Blue Devil Fan. Over the past decade... with the exception of a few years.. I think Duke has recruited as good as any school not named Tenn or UCONN. Especially the past several years.

I would like to see UVA emerge as a factor again. Great academic school.... they play in a nice shiny newer arena...... good location... I can definitely see them as a program on the rise.

 

[semper]

I agree completely with Ice, and have said so for some time now. Seeing Pat in person in South Bend confirmed it. All the facts over the last four years or so are part of a consistent picture in my view.

Want to reiterate that no one over here celebrating. For us, this is a tragedy too.

 

[Dairyair]

Pat is Tennessee. I would find it hard to believe that it's the institution and not Pat that Davis wants to attend there. I'd be shocked if she decides to renew her commitment Tennessee.

Posted from poolside in Cancun!

Bingo! Kids flocked to Tenn not because of the nice weather or the beauty of downtown Knoxville...they went to play for a legendary coach. As someone else said, much of Pat's success came at a time when WCBB was a mere afterthought at most universities. I don't mean that as disrespectfully, just stating what I think to be true. For years, when high school players started looking at colleges, of course they'd be attracted to Pat's gaudy record at Tenn. It will take a DECADE or more for Tenn to get back to the heights it once enjoyed, if it ever does, regardless of who gets the inevitable job of succeeding Pat.

BTW, DD, I would have given your post a "Like" except for the Cancun crack!

 

[JS]

BTW, DD, I would have given your post a "Like" except for the Cancun crack!

Glad to hear you're in Cancun too. But watch out for that stuff. It's debilitating.

 

[lcjeff]

Jeff; I don't think anyone on this board is "celebrating" what is going on with Pat. While Pat has certainly taken some criticism over here, it has never risen (sunk) to the level of vituperation that some posters on the Summitt (no need to name them) have used in vilifying Geno. (Back in the good old days of the UT/UConn feuding, it was those UT fans who drew the bulk of the fire from this quarter.)I don't think any of us ever really "hated" Pat, the way many over yonder hate Geno.

If Pat were her old self, yes, there would be a good amount of schadenfreude over here, not least on my part. But Pat is NOT her old self, and that changes the situation drastically. There is just nothing about Alzheimer's that lends itself to celebration. This is not a rivalry situation. Speaking for myself, and, I think, for all of us UConn fans, this is a situation in which the past is past, and everything that happened then fades into unimportance. The old Pat we could rail at; Pat in her new situation has nothing but the best wishes of all of us and our hopes that things go as well as they possibly can under the circumstances. The gravity of the situation trumps any leftover negative feelings.

I was actually directing that toward the "lunatic fringe" of fans that UConn,as well as all other programs,have.That element that cannot seperate basketball from life and reality.I meant no offense to anyone here unless they fall into that category.

 

[rocky rococo]

It's not just anyone that can replace Pat Summitt. Even to have a fair chance, it has to be a person with their own independent stature that will give them an extended grace period with fans, media, alumni etc. that will be needed to reshape that program for the post-Pat era. I've thought about the "usual gang of suspects" more or less listed above, but none of them has that critical element. As I watched the Tenn-USC game last night, it passed my mind that Dawn Staley does have that stature.