Top 5 returning players at each position

[willtalk]

Agreed. Pivec adjusted her game to fit what her OSU team needed last year with Destiny Slocum sitting out a season following her transfer from Maryland. Pivec averaged 11.1 points, a PAC-12 guard-leading 7.1 boards, and 5.0 assists per game during '17-'18 playing the point guard position.

There was apparently only one other women's D1 player last season who averaged at least 11/7/5 points/rebounds/assists per game last season. And it was not Sabrina Ionescu. We know her well on this forum and now follow her development in the WNBA. Her name is Gabby Williams. Gabby produced 11.2/7.4/5.3 averages last season. I couldn't find any other female player in D1 at any position to accomplish those stats other than Williams and Pivec.

Pivec was an interesting player to follow last season. Playing as a point for the first time since Jr High was not an easy adjustment for a player with her skill and mind set. While she had a good game against ND early in the year, she digressed soon after. During most of the season her point guard play was the teams obvious weakness. However by the end of the year and during the playoffs, her play was fairly solid. I tend to believe that if she had to play the point this season she would do a good job. I think her problem was not so much her skill set but her off guard mentality. She would often attempt to do to much putting herself into some difficult situations. She reminded me of Sims play in the WNBA.

Statistics don't impress me much. She definitely has a nose for the ball and that helps her in her rebounding. However some of that is because she usually leaves her defensive assignment early on shots to crash the boards. With Gulish taking a lot of shots and drawing defenders there were a lot of O boards to be had as well. Also with a team that shot a lot of three pointers at a + 40 % clip there were a lot of assists to be had as well. I doubt she will match those numbers this coming season, except perhaps points per game, which might well increase. He minuets per game, as will for some other former starters, probably will decrease this season.

Unlike " Lotraders" perspective, I do not see Pivecs game taking off this coming season. The addition of Slocum skill set will impact Pivec the most. It will make her skill set more expendable. She will have to return to playing more off the ball, and some players games are more productive with the ball in their hands. The team has just too many other options from players who each bring their own individual but different skill sets to the floor. With Slocums addition one of the 3 other starters at guard will have to be a reserve. Then you add a more experienced Goodman ( who shot the three at a 46% clip) and the freshman Simmons who many people are also high on and you have many capable guards to chose from. It will depend on which combination will serve the coaches vision the best. More than likely they will just employ a bigger rotation which should mean less minutes for everyone.

 

[Orangutan]

If a trade like that was possible in college ball, there’d be like a whiplash effect. McGraw wouldn’t want Carter?

Hey, I don't know, you'd have to ask her.

I don't think Carter would make this ND team as presently constructed better. There aren't enough balls in the world for Carter and Ogunbowale in the same backcourt!

I just don't think having your point guard shoot as much as she does is how you beat the best teams consistently. I would say that maybe it would be different if she had more talent around her. But the talent she did have around her (Williams & Howard) fled to greener pastures. That may be completely unrelated to Carter. But from the outside looking in it doesn't speak positively to her impact on team chemistry.

 

[Charliebball]

Hey, I don't know, you'd have to ask her.

I don't think Carter would make this ND team as presently constructed better. There aren't enough balls in the world for Carter and Ogunbowale in the same backcourt!

I just looked up Carter's shooting stats.........pretty pedestrian except for the scoring average (22.7) .443 from two and .383 from three...........

 

[bballnut90]

Interesting exercise.

Implicit in your argument is that teams would choose Gustafson or Shepard before Collier. That is a tough argument to make.

For exactly the idea that Stevens disrupted UConn and Collier last year...I often wondered if UConn would have been a better team without Stevens. I don't think Stevens made UConn a more balanced team. IMO, just the opposite.

Collier is one of the best skilled players in WCBB and is un-guardable by anyone in WCBB. She is a pro-ready player who will go in the top 5 and very likely start next year for a pro-team.

Collier is very likely a unanimous pick AA this year...one of maybe only two or three.

Chennedy Carter had a terrific year. Crystal Dangerfield is quicker, faster, more fundamentally sound, is surrounded by much more talented players (so she doesn't need to do as much), would go top 5 in this year's draft and start as PG for most any pro team that drafts her.

KLS is this year's best player. Ionescu may get it because of politics and because she is surrounded by players not as good as her (I don't want to take anything away from her...she is a terrific talent and great for Oregon). KLS is a future all-pro...as is Collier and probably Dangerfield.

Off topic....UConn is a better team this year than last, mainly because they have Walker (who is going to have the UConn sophomore leap) and because Stevens is gone (not so disruptive to Collier inside). UConn is missing size, but they will make up for it with raw athleticism, strength, quickness and talent.

No team in the country has a chance against them if they're "on".

Stevens at UCONN was an interesting result. She definitely wasn't a cancer to the team, but I agree that her presence on the roster didn't necessarily make UCONN any better. She was immensely important during their 3 biggest games (vs. ND, Final Four vs. ND, and @ Texas). You could make a strong argument that UCONN likely beats Notre Dame in the semis if Geno started Stevens at the beginning of the 2nd half after she was the start of the 2nd quarter. I think most believe that Collier's reduced numbers were a faction of sharing time with Stevens, we'll get a clearer picture if that was the reasoning as the season unfolds.

Dangerfield is a good PG, but no GM would pick her top 5 if she was draft eligible. Nor would she be a starting PG on any pro team right now. Carter is absolutely a better scorer and playmaker than Dangerfield, although I think Crystal is less flawed as a PG than Chennedy.

KLS is a great player...as are Ionescu, Kalani Brown and Teaira McCowan. Not to mention Collier, Jess Shepard, Arike Ogunbowale, Asia Durr, etc. I think going into this year, POY is really wide open. Whoever wins POY likely wins because they've had the best season. I'll be surprised if politics come into play at all.

And your last point--I still think UCONN is going to be the clear #2 favorite to win it all after ND, but I'm not on the bandwagon that they'll be better than last year. I wouldn't be shocked if they do win it all or even run the table, where last year I was shocked that they didn't run the table. Walker's improvement is essential, as is the impact of the incoming freshman. Also interested to see how Collier does without Stevens inside. Should be a very competitive season ahead.

 

[bballnut90]

I completely disagree with your selective criteria on ranking. You continue to bad mouth and undervalue a college player who just made it to the last cut offs of the national team. I'm not sure why you are even on this board....

Yikes...guess I struck a chord there. Not sure where I badmouthed Collier, but feel free to ignore my posts if they upset you.

 

[bballnut90]

If a trade like that was possible in college ball, there’d be like a whiplash effect. McGraw wouldn’t want Carter?

I wouldn't make that trade....Mabrey knows Muffet's system and did a very respectable job manning the PG spot for much of the year. She has her weaknesses at the position, but is a good passer, a crafty scorer plus she is just tough as nails.

From the outside it appears that Carter didn't mesh as well with her teammates and sometimes played heroball, taking 30+ shots per game against good teams in conference play. Her ability to create and score are remarkable, especially for someone so young. If she has improved PG skills and court awareness, she could be an All-American this year.

 

[nwhoopfan]

KLS is this year's best player. Ionescu may get it because of politics and because she is surrounded by players not as good as her (I don't want to take anything away from her...she is a terrific talent and great for Oregon). KLS is a future all-pro

Ionescu isn't a future all-pro? Not sure what that has to be do with selection for college POY anyway. Both are great players, either one might earn the award this season. I'm not sure what politics you're referring to that would favor Ionescu over Samuelson. Anyway to me Ionescu does more things on a basketball court than Samuelson does. Katie Lou is a better shooter from distance. Other than that, what does she do better than Sabrina?

 

[Charliebball]

Ionescu isn't a future all-pro? Not sure what that has to be do with selection for college POY anyway. Both are great players, either one might earn the award this season. I'm not sure what politics you're referring to that would favor Ionescu over Samuelson. Anyway to me Ionescu does more things on a basketball court than Samuelson does. Katie Lou is a better shooter from distance. Other than that, what does she do better than Sabrina?

better sense of humor?...........

 

[SCGamecock]

Very similar players. Reinna Davis operates a lot more at the wing than Odom but she isn't afraid to battle with the bigs for rebounds. She's good.

NOT better than Leonna Odom though. I got a good laugh at the OP trying to sneak her as a top 5 SF.

I’m a big fan of both (about as big as one could be for players on rival teams) and I agree that both are very similar... they play the same position just a little differently. Like you said, Davis plays more on the wing... but the most impressive thing about Davis is that she’s a terrific athlete and will battle you for rebounds. She’s a great defender too. Defensively, she works well with Westbrook in the backcourt.

I’m not convinced that Davis is flat out better than Odom though. I’ve watched plenty of Duke games and while I do think Odom can improve defensively (Davis easily wins here)... what I’ve noticed is that Odom often lacks intensity and killer instinct. Odom plays more inside but can definitely play on the perimeter... she’s one of the most versatile players currently in WCBB and I don’t think she’s even scratched the surface of what she can really do offensively. I think she’s that good, but JPM has to find a way to get that killer out. Davis has the killer for sure.

 

[Alydar]

As for the Blue Devil fan that seemed to accuse bballnut of Lady Vol bias (BlueDevils), bballnut is very critical of the present state of LV basketball. It seems to me that he goes out of his way to appear NOT to favor Tennessee. Rennia Davis is the only LV he placed in his 25 slots, which is hardly a homer move.

bballnut is an excellent poster but, like a lot of LV fans (and others), rates players on what they do with ball in their hands and ignores what they do without the ball. I watch quite a bit of Tenn and thought last year's freshman class had a lot of talent and played with a lot of energy. Davis has the athleticism to fit into Tenn's pressure defense style, however, like a lot of recent LV players, when she doesn't have the ball she tends to stand around watching whomever does have it. Tenn does run some 2 man plays but for the most part their offense is based on the person with the ball beating the person guarding them. It works well against most teams but not against equally talented and well-coached opposition. Because of that style Davis may never progress beyond what we saw last year.

 

[PAC-12HoopFan]

Pivec was an interesting player to follow last season. Playing as a point for the first time since Jr High was not an easy adjustment for a player with her skill and mind set. While she had a good game against ND early in the year, she digressed soon after. During most of the season her point guard play was the teams obvious weakness. However by the end of the year and during the playoffs, her play was fairly solid. I tend to believe that if she had to play the point this season she would do a good job. I think her problem was not so much her skill set but her off guard mentality. She would often attempt to do to much putting herself into some difficult situations. She reminded me of Sims play in the WNBA.

Statistics don't impress me much. She definitely has a nose for the ball and that helps her in her rebounding. However some of that is because she usually leaves her defensive assignment early on shots to crash the boards. With Gulish taking a lot of shots and drawing defenders there were a lot of O boards to be had as well. Also with a team that shot a lot of three pointers at a + 40 % clip there were a lot of assists to be had as well. I doubt she will match those numbers this coming season, except perhaps points per game, which might well increase. He minuets per game, as will for some other former starters, probably will decrease this season.

Unlike " Lotraders" perspective, I do not see Pivecs game taking off this coming season. The addition of Slocum skill set will impact Pivec the most. It will make her skill set more expendable. She will have to return to playing more off the ball, and some players games are more productive with the ball in their hands. The team has just too many other options from players who each bring their own individual but different skill sets to the floor. With Slocums addition one of the 3 other starters at guard will have to be a reserve. Then you add a more experienced Goodman ( who shot the three at a 46% clip) and the freshman Simmons who many people are also high on and you have many capable guards to chose from. It will depend on which combination will serve the coaches vision the best. More than likely they will just employ a bigger rotation which should mean less minutes for everyone.

I would tend to side with LOTRADER, nwhoopfan, and DaBball in their posts above about Pivec over what willtalk in his quote offers above. I have seen nearly all of OSU's games over the past two seasons as Pivec has developed. Her rebounding translates to fastbreak opportunities in which she won't need plays to be run for her. The nonsense that Pivec's 7.1 boards per game from the point guard position was a result of her crashing the boards "early" is laughable. A 5'10" guard doesn't average over 7 boards per game by taking shortcuts. Pivec does it via her physical strength, effort, and desire.

willtalk by his own admission above is apparently not impressed by stats, but then he quotes OSU's D1-leading three-point team shooting percentage and Goodman's outstanding 46% three-point marksmanship above as apparent evidence that Pivec might not receive as many minutes on the floor this coming season as she did as a sophomore. Pivec has started since early in her freshman season and will likely be the offensive leader of the OSU team in '18-'19 as it develops its new identify following Gulich's graduation to the WNBA. I anticipate continued progression by Pivec with her leadership and offensive production during her upcoming junior season. The Beavs will need her scoring, rebounding, and leadership to be able to compete with Oregon, Stanford, and Arizona State for the PAC-12 title during '18-'19.

 

[gamer]

I agree with almost everything except Carter. I would pull her off the list as a great point guard. She has tremendous talent but doesn't fit my concept of what great point guards do --- she look for her own shot first, go to others the times she can't get a shot off. I don't think that kind of selfish basketball wins the biggest games in the long run. It is a team game.

 

[JS]

Yikes! bballnut has been here for years and he's doing what one of the mods subtitled him for -- he's crafting a discussion topic. I do not see where he bad-mouthed Pheesa. Could you point out where you feel he did that? As for undervaluing, that's where the discussion part comes in. I certainly hope that bballnut does not wonder why he is on this board (as you question above) as the board is richer when posters like him create topics for women's basketball fans to discuss here on the Boneyard.

Sometimes have to regret my policy of not awarding likes, having assumed instead a posture, at least, of overwhelming impartiality.

Nonetheless, as the author of bbn's subtitle, allow me to say I agree with everything in this post.

Will take bbn any day over . . .

Ah, well, impartiality forbids me to say.

 

[RSHERMVIKES]

IMHO Crystal Dangerfield, KLS, and Pheesa will have All-American seasons as the best at their respective positions!

 

[Lorcan]

For PG's it's quite interesting given how many standouts graduated last year from some non-P5 programs. Jackie Kemph (St. Louis), Emily Clemens (Western Illinois), and Sydney Means from Mercer were all fantastic.

I think there are a few players out there that haven't been mentioned such as Carmen Grande who had a stellar season at Ball State and is transferring to Ohio State. She could have an immediate impact; however, I expect that to be diminished by the lack of returnees for the Buckeyes. Kelly Campbell of Depaul and Kennedy Leonard over at Colorado are both excellent prospects who I rate among the top in the nation.

If I had to pick 5 it would be the following:

TIANA MANGAKAHIA, Syracuse (Why didn't the Aussies call her up for the World Cup? They need a point guard, right? Mangakahia, Smith, and Megbor are the future of the Opals.)



Destiny Slocum, Oregon State

Maite Cazorla, Oregon

Carmen Grande, Ohio State (Hey, she played some stellar games against decent competition. 17 pts, 7 assists, 6 rebounds versus Purdue, 14 pts, 11 assists versus Buffalo)

 

[Charliebball]

IMHO Crystal Dangerfield, KLS, and Pheesa will have All-American seasons as the best at their respective positions!

they sure better!!!

 

[LoTrader]

I would tend to side with LOTRADER, nwhoopfan, and DaBball in their posts above about Pivec over what willtalk in his quote offers above. I have seen nearly all of OSU's games over the past two seasons as Pivec has developed. Her rebounding translates to fastbreak opportunities in which she won't need plays to be run for her. The nonsense that Pivec's 7.1 boards per game from the point guard position was a result of her crashing the boards "early" is laughable. A 5'10" guard doesn't average over 7 boards per game by taking shortcuts. Pivec does it via her physical strength, effort, and desire.

willtalk by his own admission above is apparently not impressed by stats, but then he quotes OSU's D1-leading three-point team shooting percentage and Goodman's outstanding 46% three-point marksmanship above as apparent evidence that Pivec might not receive as many minutes on the floor this coming season as she did as a sophomore. Pivec has started since early in her freshman season and will likely be the offensive leader of the OSU team in '18-'19 as it develops its new identify following Gulich's graduation to the WNBA. I anticipate continued progression by Pivec with her leadership and offensive production during her upcoming junior season. The Beavs will need her scoring, rebounding, and leadership to be able to compete with Oregon, Stanford, and Arizona State for the PAC-12 title during '18-'19.

I have to agree with PAC -12HOOPFAN who agreed with me I too, have seen nearly every single OSU game (in person at OSU), and Pivec isn't going to get less time on the court in her junior year. Pivec and Katy McWilliams are Coach Rueck's ROCKS. The addition of Destiny Slocum will only make Pivec better. Let's see how this plays out. Cannot wait!

 

[willtalk]

I would tend to side with LOTRADER, nwhoopfan, and DaBball in their posts above about Pivec over what willtalk in his quote offers above. I have seen nearly all of OSU's games over the past two seasons as Pivec has developed. Her rebounding translates to fastbreak opportunities in which she won't need plays to be run for her. The nonsense that Pivec's 7.1 boards per game from the point guard position was a result of her crashing the boards "early" is laughable. A 5'10" guard doesn't average over 7 boards per game by taking shortcuts. Pivec does it via her physical strength, effort, and desire.

willtalk by his own admission above is apparently not impressed by stats, but then he quotes OSU's D1-leading three-point team shooting percentage and Goodman's outstanding 46% three-point marksmanship above as apparent evidence that Pivec might not receive as many minutes on the floor this coming season as she did as a sophomore. Pivec has started since early in her freshman season and will likely be the offensive leader of the OSU team in '18-'19 as it develops its new identify following Gulich's graduation to the WNBA. I anticipate continued progression by Pivec with her leadership and offensive production during her upcoming junior season. The Beavs will need her scoring, rebounding, and leadership to be able to compete with Oregon, Stanford, and Arizona State for the PAC-12 title during '18-'19.

I can not believe I did not respond to this earlier. I guess I must have thought I did. Actually I am not that much in disagreement with either you or Lotraders take. It might just be a matter of semantics.

I would not disagree with you about her rebounding ability. Her qualities as a player, strength, tenacity etc are certainly qualities that make for a good rebounder. What I was referring to was in respect to rebounding stats. I often wondered why they were so good- so I observed what she did in games. In respect to her leaving her man early was not meant as a criticism but as an explanation for her rebound numbers. She obviously has that timing down. Ironically the biggest difference in rebounding numbers for her in respect to other non center players is her offensive rebounding numbers. She averages over two offensive rebounds a game on offense. That is the main difference between her numbers and the other players other than Gulish. When not all guards can crash the boards some have to pick up their defensive assignments to guard against fast breaks. I am sure that some players are kept back to guard against the break while she is generally allowed to crash the boards.

In respect to my using stats on Goodman, I feel that was appropriate. Each of the guards has things that they do a bit better than the other guards. Some like Pivek do many things well. Goodman had the best 3pt percentage on the team so I mentioned that as a quality he might bring to the table. If Rueck felt that was more important than some other quality then Goodman might see plenty of time. They are all good 3pt shooters but some are better than others. The same applies to defense as well. Defense seemed to be Goodmans weakness last season and it was that that kept her from getting more court time. Both 3pt shooting ability and defense is very important to Rueck.

What I disagree with in respects to both you and Lotrader is that you seem certain as to who Rueck will start. I am not. This team will have an entirely different dynamic and needs to the absence of Gulish. Each player brings a different set of skills to the table and it will entirely depend on what this particular team needs and which combination of players will best supply that need. It would not surprise me if any of the guards, except for Slocum, came off the bench. I can see rationals for any one of the combinations.

 

[nwhoopfan]

What I disagree with in respects to both you and Lotrader is that you seem certain as to who Rueck will start. I am not.

It's going to be very interesting to see the starting lineup on opening day. I have a feeling it could change as the season progresses. Basically comes down to does Rueck start his most experienced and best players, or does he go with a traditional lineup with lots of size? Pivec, Tudor and McWilliams have all proven themselves, but it's going to be hard to keep Slocum off the floor and I imagine Corosdale plus one of the really tall posts is going to be in the lineup most of the time. I actually don't see Goodman's minutes increasing much from last year, just too many good guards/wings she's competing with. Never mind if Simmons is as good as I have a sneaking suspicion she is.

 

[willtalk]

I have to agree with PAC -12HOOPFAN who agreed with me I too, have seen nearly every single OSU game (in person at OSU), and Pivec isn't going to get less time on the court in her junior year. Pivec and Katy McWilliams are Coach Rueck's ROCKS. The addition of Destiny Slocum will only make Pivec better. Let's see how this plays out. Cannot wait!

I totally agree that Slocum will make Pivec better. What I question is that it will raise her national profile or assure her as making All Pac 12. Slocum will make everyone better. What I disagree with is your opinion that Williams and Pivek are locks for the starting line up. I personally do not know who will start along with Slocum. Because of the void left both on offense and defense by Gulish's departure the dynamics of this team is still an unknown. A lot depends on how completely the replacements fill her role.

Each of the available guards brings a sightly different dynamic to the line up. Each has aspects of their game that they excel in comparison to the others. My point was also that many of the aspects that the team relied on Pivek for last season will be filled by Slocum. The ball will not be in her hands as much except if she backs up the point guard position and Scott seems to believe that Goodman is eventually more suited to that. While she is better at driving, ball handling she is not as good as a three point shooter or defensively as either Williams or Tudor. She is better defensively than Goodman but not the three point shooter she is. My point is that it all depends on which of these qualities mentioned are more important to this particular team or which player might be most effective coming off the bench. I envision the guards not playing the minutes they did this last season.

Ruecks history shows that he will play whomever he thinks will provide what the team needs. He is not that concerned about replacing former starters even if he feels a frosh will provide more of a contribution. They will get their minutes but not always as starters.

 

[willtalk]

I think Slocum is a given because she is not really new and has been practicing with the team all year. People have remarked how well she played in those practices. While Pivec would certainly be able to handle the point this year, she is not on the same level with Slocum at the point position. Slocum is too good to keep out of the lineup. I also thought, that discounting her defensive liabilities and often not keeping her head up, Goodman was more of a natural at point as well.

The problem with me and evaluating points is that my beginning of watching girls high school basketball was Chelsea Gray's team when she was a freshman. It sort of set unrealistically high standard for others to follow. She was the consummate assist first point guard even back then. On a team that usually scored around the 100 mark, she never averaged more than 14 points per game when she could have easily scored double that if she chose too. Sort of spoiled me.

 

[LoTrader]

Hi willtalk, at this point we will have to see what happens. I cannot imagine a scenario where Pivec doesn't start, and, play more minutes than just about everyone (minus Katie McWilliams). As I said, these 2 are Rueck's ROCKS. Let's get this season started already.

 

[PAC-12HoopFan]

Lotrader's insight is more consistent with what most Oregon State fans think. I travel to Corvallis to watch most of the home games and know what McWilliams and Pivec mean to that program. I need to help willtalk a bit with his spelling. The correct spellings for OSU's current and former players are Gulich, McWilliams, and Pivec. Every time I see willtalk post about Gulish (sp), Williams (sp), or Pivek (sp) on this board or on other boards it makes me think that he really doesn't follow the Beavers enough to know that much about the squad. Or, he is a truly poor speller.

Yes. Pivec averaged two offensive boards per game last season from the point guard position! Ask Notre Dame's Muffet McGraw about Pivec's rebounding. Ask any PAC-12 coach about trying to keep Pivec off the boards. Having another quality ballhandler on the floor in Slocum will help both McWilliams and Pivec thrive during '18-'19. Both of those pass-first teammates have played out of position during their OSU careers to play the point when Sydney Wiese was injured ('15-'16 for McWilliams) and when Slocum was sitting out a season ('17-'18) due to her transfer from Maryland. Neither McWilliams or Pivec were recruited to play the point at Oregon State. They both assumed that role because their team had a need and they are extremely versatile players.

 

[Justavisitor]

n

bballnut is an excellent poster but, like a lot of LV fans (and others), rates players on what they do with ball in their hands and ignores what they do without the ball. I watch quite a bit of Tenn and thought last year's freshman class had a lot of talent and played with a lot of energy. Davis has the athleticism to fit into Tenn's pressure defense style, however, like a lot of recent LV players, when she doesn't have the ball she tends to stand around watching whomever does have it. Tenn does run some 2 man plays but for the most part their offense is based on the person with the ball beating the person guarding them. It works well against most teams but not against equally talented and well-coached opposition. Because of that style Davis may never progress beyond what we saw last year.

Expect to see changes in that style. TN has had the luxury (not really) of not-so-good perimeter shooters, therefore, they've had to rely on athleticism far too often. From all that I've heard, Davis is the most improved over the off season.

 

[Justavisitor]

Tyasha Harris is a steady point guard, but not a top 5, IMO. It will be interesting to see how her numbers fair without A'ja Wilson, who boosts a point guards assist numbers. I wouldn't be surprised to see Te'a Cooper be a top 5.

Carter from aTm is a top scorer for sure, but when relied upon to run an offense, the pg skills are lacking. It will be interesting to see what Gary Blair does with her going forward or if she'll remain the offensive option on every possession.

Another player of interest will be Evina Westbrook and Megan Walker. Expect both players to crash that list.