The Official 2023 New England Patriots Thread

[HeGotGame]

Threw it away? Other than Smith and Agholor, those were all successful. Judon became one of the best pass rushers in the game and vastly outplayed that contract. Wise has outplayed his contract as well. Bourne was a steal at that price.

Miami's defense already stinks. Playing with cap to keep the offense means losing the few good defensive players they have or some of the OL.

Ha, so you think Hunter Henry was worth 25 mill GTD? You think he performed at a top 5 TE level? Because that is what he was paid. I mean I know I am talking to someone who thought trading up for a kicker was a good idea, but even for you that is a laugh.

Judon yes, but Smith, Henry, Algholor were the next big 3 signing and they were all huge busts.

Godchaux graded out as 101st out of 130rd DTs. Cool. Mills, 76 out of 96 safeties. Cool. You seem to think because these guys play and start they are good, but they are not. They are below replacement level players who were paid well above it.

When Kendrick Bourne, who is nothing more than a decent WR 3 is one of the better signings it says everything.

Also, its funny that you says the Pats D is "excellent" and Miami's "stinks" when they rate on counting and advance metrics pretty similar.

 

[Husky25]

Even if he's black and internal, the Rooney Rule requires interview of external candidates. Seems they avoided it with this contract move. Because otherwise it would still apply. Do not like this move at all. He may be fine, but doing it before the GM hire is stupid.

The Rooney Rule | NFL Football Operations

operations.nfl.com

It was reported that Belichick has had two interviews already with the Falcons and is all but assured the job.

If true, Interviewing Aaron Glenn at this point seems to be just to check a box. Particularly if BB does wind up in Atlanta.

Didn't the Lions get fined and lose a draft pick for similarly violating the spirit of the Rooney Rule when they hired Mooch?

 

[HuskyHawk]

It was reported that Belichick has had two interviews already with the Falcons and is all but assured the job.

If true, Interviewing Aaron Glenn at this point seems to be just to check a box. Particularly if BB does wind up in Atlanta.

Didn't the Lions get fined and lose a draft pick for similarly violating the spirit of the Rooney Rule when they hired Mooch?

I appreciate the intent of the rule, but what choice do they have but to check that box? For Glenn he gets some practice interviewing and the fact that he is considered is a plus for the next opening. Even the Falcons likely need another coach in 2 years. So they get information.

Has anybody ever gotten a job bc of a Rooney rule interview? Teams now get a comp pick if a minority coach gets hired away to a HC job. That seems like a bigger incentive to me.

 

[Husky25]

I appreciate the intent of the rule, but what choice do they have but to check that box? For Glenn he gets some practice interviewing and the fact that he is considered is a plus for the next opening. Even the Falcons likely need another coach in 2 years. So they get information.

Has anybody ever gotten a job bc of a Rooney rule interview? Teams now get a comp pick if a minority coach gets hired away to a HC job. That seems like a bigger incentive to me.

Then why complain about Mayo? Correct me if I'm wrong, but a minority actually getting the job is loads better optics than the token interview when the decision is already made.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Then why complain about Mayo? Correct me if I'm wrong, but a minority actually getting the job is loads better optics than the token interview when the decision is already made.

I didn’t complain. When I posted that it seemed they ignored the rule, which leads to loss of draft picks. Thats all I cared about. Only later was it revealed that they had a contract clause that allowed them to do it.

My main complaint is the lack of a GM, especially an outside voice. This Off-season is too important to let the old staff make the decisions.

 

[Waquoit]

I didn’t complain. When I posted that it seemed they ignored the rule, which leads to loss of draft picks. Thats all I cared about. Only later was it revealed that they had a contract clause that allowed them to do it.

The entire reason for the rule is to get more coaches of color hired. The hired a black coach. They were never in danger of losing picks.

 

[Husky25]

I didn’t complain. When I posted that it seemed they ignored the rule, which leads to loss of draft picks. Thats all I cared about. Only later was it revealed that they had a contract clause that allowed them to do it.

My main complaint is the lack of a GM, especially an outside voice. This Off-season is too important to let the old staff make the decisions.

I don't necessarily disagree about the GM, but I Also don't see how they could have ignored the rule. Without getting too nuanced, The Rooney Rule is meant enhance the pool of minority candidates to increase the opportunity to fill an HC and FO position. It's a means to an end. Mayo fulfilled the end. I don't think I've ever heard of a position, particularly of the magnitude of head NFL coach being filled without an interview.

 

[HuskyHawk]

The entire reason for the rule is to get more coaches of color hired. The hired a black coach. They were never in danger of losing picks.

The rule requires an external interview, two actually, no matter who the internal candidate is. So yes, without the contract clause they’d have issues.

 

[Husky25]

Word out of the DMV (No, not where one gets their drivers license) is that the Commanders are closing in on Ben Johnson, the Detroit OC who resurrected Jared Goff's career with 9,000 yards and 59 TD (against 19 INTs) over the last two years, for their head coach. The fact that Mike Vrabel is still out there is baffling. He is evidently not going to the Patriots, who are promoting DeMarcus Covington to DC. OC is probably coming from outside the organization.

Further, I've heard multiple Commander team-centric and national sources indicate that Jayden Daniels is jumping over Drake Maye at the 2nd pick.

Long way to go before April and both the Commanders and Patriots staffs are incomplete, but I am liking what Josh Harris is doing and and very interested how the Patriots will round out. If Daniels goes #2, I think the Patriots will pick one of MHJ (might be a necessity, with or without Boutte), Joe Alt, or Fashanu. I'm not sure if JJ McCarthy played himself into the 1st round, but they should scoop him up if he's there for the Patriots in the 2nd. Wherever McCarthy ends up, he's probably best served to hold a clipboard for a year.

 

[Waquoit]

The rule requires an external interview, two actually, no matter who the internal candidate is. So yes, without the contract clause they’d have issues.

Probably end up on double secret probation.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Probably end up on double secret probation.

Yeah, I'm wrong in part. It's two external interviews for HC, one for coordinator level jobs. So they have no satisfied the requirement. Latest interview is Klint Kubiak, Niners passing game coordinator, son of Gary, former Broncos QB. Superbowl staff can interview during this off week. He has a solid resume.

If an OC isn't named this week, it's probably Kubiak. I'd look for them to try to add some of the other guys they interviewed as well.

@Husky25 if Daniels goes #2 they will jump for joy and take Maye. If Maye goes #2 I'm not sure what they do, maybe trade back and get an OT, then a QB and WR in round 2.

 

[Husky25]

Let's, everybody, slow their roll on Mahomes being the GOAT.

No doubt that Mahomes is talented, but he's also only won two Super Bowls and is 0-2 lifetime vs. the Brady led Patriots in the playoffs. Brady (10-4 CCG; 7-3 SB) had to win six Super Bowls before even being included in the argument with Montana (4-3 in CCGs.).

Brady would be a top 10, arguably top 5, QB right now. Besides, we all know the real reason why the Chiefs are in the Super Bowl this year .

 

[HeGotGame]

Let's, everybody, slow their roll on Mahomes being the GOAT.

No doubt that Mahomes is talented, but he's also only won two Super Bowls and is 0-2 lifetime vs. the Brady led Patriots in the playoffs. Brady (10-4 CCG; 7-3 SB) had to win six Super Bowls before even being included in the argument with Montana (4-3 in CCGs.).

Brady would be a top 10, arguably top 5, QB right now. Besides, we all know the real reason why the Chiefs are in the Super Bowl this year .

Citing record versus each other is as dumb as trading up for a kicker.

Oh, and Ben Johnson, yea, not going to DC

 

[HuskyHawk]

Citing record versus each other is as dumb as trading up for a kicker.

Oh, and Ben Johnson, yea, not going to DC

Fine, Mahomes is comparable through their first six seasons. Now lets see him do it for another 10. If he does, great. He's in the conversation. At the moment he's not just behind Brady but Montana, Manning and others.

Ben Johnson staying put is interesting. Maybe an opening for BB, but more likely Vrabel. Smart because I think he may get jobs that appeal to him more next year.

 

[Husky25]

Fine, Mahomes is comparable through their first six seasons. Now lets see him do it for another 10. If he does, great. He's in the conversation. At the moment he's not just behind Brady but Montana, Manning and others.

Ben Johnson staying put is interesting. Maybe an opening for BB, but more likely Vrabel. Smart because I think he may get jobs that appeal to him more next year.

I saw that Johnson is staying put. Washington's 2a choice was/is Mike McDonald from Baltimore. I'm pretty sure I read that Peters and Harris were interested in bringing in an offensive minded head coach, but Washington and Baltimore carried on joint practices in the preseason, leading up to their Exhibition game. Harris was impressed with the Ravens' set-up, culture, etc.

With Johnson out, the remaining realistic candidates are McDonald, (2b) Bobby Slowik, Dan Quinn, Aaron Glenn, and Anthony Weaver, with Slowik being the only offensive coach. Looks like fans down there are cringing at the possibility of either Quinn or Glenn. It's bad optics, but I think Glenn is this cycle's Rooney Rule checkmark. If Johnson was in play, then why not interview Glenn while your there? On paper, the Lions were in the bottom half of the league for both yards and points allowed since he's been there (3 season). OTOH, Glenn gains valuable interview experience.

I know they don't want a retread, but with these choices (four being defensive), why not kick the tires on Vrabel?

 

[HuskyHawk]

I saw that Johnson is staying put. Washington's 2a choice was/is Mike McDonald from Baltimore. I'm pretty sure I read that Peters and Harris were interested in bringing in an offensive minded head coach, but Washington and Baltimore carried on joint practices in the preseason, leading up to their Exhibition game. Harris was impressed with the Ravens' set-up, culture, etc.

With Johnson out, the remaining realistic candidates are McDonald, (2b) Bobby Slowik, Dan Quinn, Aaron Glenn, and Anthony Weaver, with Slowik being the only offensive coach. Looks like fans down there are cringing at the possibility of either Quinn or Glenn. It's bad optics, but I think Glenn is this cycle's Rooney Rule checkmark. If Johnson was in play, then why not interview Glenn while your there? On paper, the Lions were in the bottom half of the league for both yards and points allowed since he's been there (3 season). OTOH, Glenn gains valuable interview experience.

I know they don't want a retread, but with these choices (four being defensive), why not kick the tires on Vrabel?

I think they'd be crazy not to. He brings so much stability to a franchise that hasn't had it in decades. They can get a wiz-kid OC still, but anybody watching these playoffs and thinking "defense is dead, it's an offensive league now" deserves the Ls they have coming.

 

[mauconnfan]

Let's, everybody, slow their roll on Mahomes being the GOAT.

No doubt that Mahomes is talented, but he's also only won two Super Bowls and is 0-2 lifetime vs. the Brady led Patriots in the playoffs. Brady (10-4 CCG; 7-3 SB) had to win six Super Bowls before even being included in the argument with Montana (4-3 in CCGs.).

Brady would be a top 10, arguably top 5, QB right now. Besides, we all know the real reason why the Chiefs are in the Super Bowl this year .

He’s 28, he has a chance there’s no doubt. For now it’s too early but his talent is obviously there if he can get some more rings.

Tom Brady vs. Patrick Mahomes: The key stats you need to know in the NFL's GOAT debate | Sporting News

Mahomes' fourth Super Bowl appearance has reignited the GOAT debate with Tom Brady. Here's what the numbers say about the two future Hall-of-Fame quarterbacks.

www.sportingnews.com

 

[Husky25]

He’s 28, he has a chance there’s no doubt. For now it’s too early but his talent is obviously there if he can get some more rings.

Tom Brady vs. Patrick Mahomes: The key stats you need to know in the NFL's GOAT debate | Sporting News

Mahomes' fourth Super Bowl appearance has reignited the GOAT debate with Tom Brady. Here's what the numbers say about the two future Hall-of-Fame quarterbacks.

www.sportingnews.com

I mentioned talent.

It's also probably relevant that Mahomes didn't take the reins of a bob-tailed nag either. In the five seasons preceding Mahomes, Andy Reid and Alex Smith led the Chiefs to records of 10-6, 12-4, 11-5, 9-7, and 11-5, reaching the playoff after four of those seasons. Mahomes also began his career throwing to Tyreek Hill and "Taylor Swift's Boyfriend," who may end up being the best tight end of all time when all is said and done. Mahomes got the Chiefs over the hump, no doubt, but the phoenix hadn't burst into flames.

Brady took over for Bledsoe who went 5-11 the year prior, was 0-1 (and got "credit" for the loss to the Jets by virtue of starting the game), and who almost died. Not to mention a desperate (at the time) coach who was soon to be 5-13 as a Patriot. The Pats got 1 game worse in each of the three seasons leading up to Belichick.

 

[mauconnfan]

I mentioned talent.

It's also probably relevant that Mahomes didn't take the reins of a bob-tailed nag either. In the five seasons preceding Mahomes, Andy Reid and Alex Smith led the Chiefs to records of 10-6, 12-4, 11-5, 9-7, and 11-5, reaching the playoff after four of those seasons. Mahomes also began his career throwing to Tyreek Hill and "Taylor Swift's Boyfriend," who may end up being the best tight end of all time when all is said and done. Mahomes got the Chiefs over the hump, no doubt, but the phoenix hadn't burst into flames.

Brady took over for Bledsoe who went 5-11 the year prior, was 0-1 (and got "credit" for the loss to the Jets by virtue of starting the game), and who almost died. Not to mention a desperate (at the time) coach who was soon to be 5-13 as a Patriot. The Pats got 1 game worse in each of the three seasons leading up to Belichick.

I should have figured I’d get the Pats fans point of view. All decent points but you all thought gronk was the best too but not now. Truth is Mahomes will make a run at the GOAT maybe, not for sure but he does have a chance.

 

[Husky25]

I should have figured I’d get the Pats fans point of view. All decent points but you all thought gronk was the best too but not now. Truth is Mahomes will make a run at the GOAT maybe, not for sure but he does have a chance.

Loved watching Gronk play such a physical style and he was probably considered in the running the GOAT in the late teens, but in 2020, Kelce found another gear. After an equal num seasons (Albeit, Kelce played only one snap in 2013), Kelce has more yards, and receptions. Gronk has more TDs and is probably a better blocker, but his physical play certainly caught up to him, so he got out while he was still able to walk.

The way Kelce is going, he might have a year or two left. OTOH, he still has a ways before reaching Anthony Gonzalez (17 seasons, 1,325 rec., 15,127 yards. 111 TDs.).

I never said Mahomes wouldn't possibly make a run. I said slow the roll on anointing him right now. Brady played past his 45th birthday for 23 years (not to mention 3 full season equivalents of playoff games), in 10 Super Bowls (winning a 7th Lombardi at age 43), and 14 CCGs.

 

[mauconnfan]

Loved watching Gronk play such a physical style and he was probably considered in the running the GOAT in the late teens, but in 2020, Kelce found another gear. After an equal num seasons (Albeit, Kelce played only one snap in 2013), Kelce has more yards, and receptions. Gronk has more TDs and is probably a better blocker, but his physical play certainly caught up to him, so he got out while he was still able to walk.

The way Kelce is going, he might have a year or two left. OTOH, he still has a ways before reaching Anthony Gonzalez (17 seasons, 1,325 rec., 15,127 yards. 111 TDs.).

I never said Mahomes wouldn't possibly make a run. I said slow the roll on anointing him right now. Brady played past his 45th birthday for 23 years (not to mention 3 full season equivalents of playoff games), in 10 Super Bowls (winning a 7th Lombardi at age 43), and 14 CCGs.

I would agree on slow the roll. But I would also say there’s a possibility he doesn’t play until he’s 45 and doesn’t get the same numbers but could still be anointed GOAT. But he’s gotta come close in the numbers.

 

[HuskyHawk]

I should have figured I’d get the Pats fans point of view. All decent points but you all thought gronk was the best too but not now. Truth is Mahomes will make a run at the GOAT maybe, not for sure but he does have a chance.

I think that's fair. I simply doubt he or anybody else will be productive so late in their careers. But his first 6 seasons compare nicely. It's reasonable to project that he's on a trajectory to compete. Saw a fascinating chart that really highlights this. Brady has 35 playoff wins. Montana is #2 at 16. Mahomes is impressively tied with Bradshaw, Young, Manning and Elway at 14. If he wins next week, he's already #3. But still a long, long way from #1.

Most Qb Playoff Wins | StatMuse

Tom Brady has the most career wins by a quarterback in the playoffs, with 35 wins.

www.statmuse.com

As for Kelce, they asked Gronk and I think his answer was correct. Kelce is the best receiving tight end of all time. If you combine blocking and receiving, Gronk was better overall. They aren't really similar players. Gronk was a top 5 receiving TE while also being a very good blocking TE. Kelce is a below average blocker.

 

[HuskyHawk]

The Patriots have hired Alex Van Pelt as OC. Per Mike Reiss he just interviewed this morning so must have impressed. I remember him as QB at Pitt. This makes a lot of sense to me on a staff with a really young, defensive minded Head Coach. You’ve got an experienced guy who worked with lots of sharp guys and knows multiple offensive systems, but us mostly west coast. To make west coast work, a lot has to change on the OL, so:

 

[Husky25]

The Patriots have hired Alex Van Pelt as OC. Per Mike Reiss he just interviewed this morning so must have impressed. I remember him as QB at Pitt. This makes a lot of sense to me on a staff with a really young, defensive minded Head Coach. You’ve got an experienced guy who worked with lots of sharp guys and knows multiple offensive systems, but us mostly west coast. To make west coast work, a lot has to change on the OL, so:

Van Pelt was also a backup QB for 9 seasons in Buffalo, beginning with the tail end of the Kelly era.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Van Pelt was also a backup QB for 9 seasons in Buffalo, beginning with the tail end of the Kelly era.

I think it helps he was a player. For me the reasons this makes sense: (a) he's got a lot of experience as a coach on a staff with very little. He has more years than the HC, DC and STC combined and (b) he had a lot of stops with smart offensive guys, McCarthy, Stefanski, Greg Olsen (different one), he has seen multiple wrinkles to the west coast offenses.

Have been reading about the whole Shannahan/McVay offense and it's largely a misnomer. I go back to the Bill Walsh "west coast" which was mostly about ball control passing. Shannahan evolved out of the wide zone rushing attack in Denver (I recall his dominant run game with guys like Terrell Davis). The passing approach between say McVay and Kyle Shannahan is actually quite different. They do all use a lot of motion, but different personnel sets.

It seems clear the Patriots will move on from the Erhardt Perkins offense that was largely invented by them in the 70s. But I don't think Van Pelt is tied to any one approach, which should help a team that needs to add a lot on offense. Can build around the players.

 

[Husky25]

I think it helps he was a player. For me the reasons this makes sense: (a) he's got a lot of experience as a coach on a staff with very little. He has more years than the HC, DC and STC combined and (b) he had a lot of stops with smart offensive guys, McCarthy, Stefanski, Greg Olsen (different one), he has seen multiple wrinkles to the west coast offenses.

Have been reading about the whole Shannahan/McVay offense and it's largely a misnomer. I go back to the Bill Walsh "west coast" which was mostly about ball control passing. Shannahan evolved out of the wide zone rushing attack in Denver (I recall his dominant run game with guys like Terrell Davis). The passing approach between say McVay and Kyle Shannahan is actually quite different. They do all use a lot of motion, but different personnel sets.

It seems clear the Patriots will move on from the Erhardt Perkins offense that was largely invented by them in the 70s. But I don't think Van Pelt is tied to any one approach, which should help a team that needs to add a lot on offense. Can build around the players.

The West Coast Offense was the original Dink and Dunk. Ball control with shorter, more horizontal passes to surehanded WRs and above-average pass catching RBs and TEs, It just so happened that Jerry Rice (Dwight Clark before him) was so good getting open and after the catch, he more or less hid the fact that Montana would regularly throw the ball 10 yards in the air.

 

[HuskyHawk]

The West Coast Offense was the original Dink and Dunk. Ball control with shorter, more horizontal passes to surehanded WRs and above-average pass catching RBs and TEs, It just so happened that Jerry Rice (Dwight Clark before him) was so good getting open and after the catch, he more or less hid the fact that Montana would regularly throw the ball 10 yards in the air.

Yeah, I know. People often conflate "west coast" with "Shannahan" and while there are common elements they aren't the same. Essentially, almost all of these offenses are blended now, with a variety of concepts, including motion, RPOs etc. I think the Patriots will likely run a reasonably conservative offense with some interesting wrinkles.

 

[HeGotGame]

When you can hire a guy who has been fired from the same position twice before you gotta do it.

 

[Husky25]

@Husky25 if Daniels goes #2 they will jump for joy and take Maye. If Maye goes #2 I'm not sure what they do, maybe trade back and get an OT, then a QB and WR in round 2.

They've soured on Daniels?

Now that Kliff Kingsbury is in at OC in Wash, I've seen a lot of chatter how the Commanders could give up a fair portion of draft capital to move up one spot for Caleb Williams. Kingsbury was QB Coach at USC last season. I think neither the Commanders, nor Patriots should entertain moving up.

For one, if Chicago is willing to move out of the 1st pick, they will seek to create a bidding war. Washington has the capital (5 picks inside the top 103), but the value to move up one pick is not worth the amount of capital it would presumably take. Williams is not head and shoulders above either Maye or Daniels. In fact, he may be the Ryan Leaf of the group. Plus, if Williams is not the 1st pick, he'll be there for the taking without selling the farm and those other 4 picks can address other glaring holes on the roster.

The Patriots should also sit tight unless they trade down. At the moment, the choices at #3 are whichever QB is left, one of the tackles, or MHJ. They have the 2nd most cap space entering the new year, and a full compliment of picks, but not as much draft capital as Washington, which means they can draft a less polished QB in round 2, sign a bridge QB, and let their rookie hold a clipboard until at least December. They actually may have more leverage, and ability to trade down, than Chicago. How they don't yet have a GM is borderline astonishing.

 

[HuskyHawk]

They've soured on Daniels?

Now that Kliff Kingsbury is in at OC in Wash, I've seen a lot of chatter how the Commanders could give up a fair portion of draft capital to move up one spot for Caleb Williams. Kingsbury was QB Coach at USC last season. I think neither the Commanders, nor Patriots should entertain moving up.

For one, if Chicago is willing to move out of the 1st pick, they will seek to create a bidding war. Washington has the capital (5 picks inside the top 103), but the value to move up one pick is not worth the amount of capital it would presumably take. Williams is not head and shoulders above either Maye or Daniels. In fact, he may be the Ryan Leaf of the group. Plus, if Williams is not the 1st pick, he'll be there for the taking without selling the farm and those other 4 picks can address other glaring holes on the roster.

The Patriots should also sit tight unless they trade down. At the moment, the choices at #3 are whichever QB is left, one of the tackles, or MHJ. They have the 2nd most cap space entering the new year, and a full compliment of picks, but not as much draft capital as Washington, which means they can draft a less polished QB in round 2, sign a bridge QB, and let their rookie hold a clipboard until at least December. They actually may have more leverage, and ability to trade down, than Chicago. How they don't yet have a GM is borderline astonishing.

I don't think anybody thought of Daniels as a top 10 pick until a month or so ago. It's not a question of souring as much as evaluating whether this guy that was at best a 2nd round pick in November is suddenly now worth taking at #3. Sometimes fans and media get carried away and talk these guys up a board.

By way of example, I pulled early mocks last year from the first week of February. From noteworthy guys at NFL.com like Lance Zierlien. In this one he had the Panthers taking Keion White (who the Pats did draft in Round 2) at #9. Lance Zierlein 2023 NFL mock draft 1.0: Buccaneers select Tom Brady's successor Gonzalez, who we saw fall down the board, is #6 in this one. Jalen Carter is #1. He went #9.

My guess is that teams will have some real questions about Caleb Williams mentally. Can he handle adversity (so far, no)? The guy lost almost every big game and in some cases cried about it. The physical tools are all there (so were Zach Wilson's). I wouldn't touch him.

They will have real questions about Daniels' ability to run a pro offense, which is going to require a lot of accurate, on time, short and intermediate depth throws (which did sparingly at LSU). He has that long Randall Cunningham throwing motion. Is that quick enough in the NFL?

Maye has relatively few question marks. His floor is high. Is he Peyton Manning or even Andrew Luck? I doubt it. But he's probably at least David Carr with better mobility.

I think New England takes Maye if he's there or trades back and grabs one of the two top OTs or maybe even Brock Bowers. You can't take an OT at #3. I expect Spencer Rattler to move up the board, he's probably already in the 2nd round and could pass Nix and Penix among QBs. The Patriots have some history with guys who have clear talent, went through adversity, lost their jobs and matured. Brady and Cassell both fit that mold. One former Jets scout has Rattler the #1 QB in this class.