Super Bowl

[tzznandrew]

There is no logic for doing what they did.

Of course there's a logic.

You don't have to agree with it (and I don't), but this isn't some absurd call.

Butler made an unbelievable play. If he doesn't--if he just breaks up instead of holding onto it--the Seahawks win and kick the ball back to New England with under 20 seconds left. But you can't undo the Butler play--just as you can't undo the Kearse drop earlier in the game that would have effectively ended the game, or the absurd Kearse catch that put the Seahawks in position to win.

 

[tzznandrew]

Belichick not calling TO was insanely stupid, there was 30 seconds and 1 TO left so you can still run the ball 3 times (0 chance it would have taken 3 times) from the 1 in that situation.

I agree that it was probably a stupid decision. My only logic: the Pats were only able to go underneath the whole game (almost no deep routes), so they probably couldn't get into field goal range. He must have figured that he'd rather go with his defense in that moment, rather than go against the best pass defense in the NFL.

I think it was a poor decision...but they won, so who cares (if you're a Pats fan).

 

[donyell34]

No ; not calling to was smart ; kept his run package in and it was all on the defense. No time left for Brady and offense. U roll the dice with the D that's all you got there.

 

[Jerry1714]

I agree that it was probably a stupid decision. My only logic: the Pats were only able to go underneath the whole game (almost no deep routes), so they probably couldn't get into field goal range. He must have figured that he'd rather go with his defense in that moment, rather than go against the best pass defense in the NFL.

I think it was a poor decision...but they won, so who cares (if you're a Pats fan).

I hear ya. I just think its crazy to eliminate the option of responding with a FG.

You never know what can happen, kick out of bounds like Carolina gifted Brady, or a player breaks a few tackles, as they had been, or a penalty. I honestly do not think getting into FG range with say 45 secs left is that big of a stretch (Seattle drove for a TD with 35 secs at the end of half).

 

[Hoophound]

I hear ya. I just think its crazy to eliminate the option of responding with a FG. You never know what can happen, kick out of bounds like Carolina gifted Brady, or a player breaks a few tackles, as they had been, or a penalty. I honestly do not think getting into FG range with say 45 secs left is that big of a stretch (Seattle drove for a TD with 35 secs at the end of half).

And it is Brady we're talking about. It isn't like you go out there thinking you have no chance with him. I'd put my chances at 50/50 to get a field goal with Brady, Gronk And Edelman out there. They might not actually be that good, but I feel that way.

If Lynch had run the ball in or that INT was caught for a TD, the game was over with so little time left. The Pats may have surprised the Seahawks by not calling timeout and it may have worked out well, but I think I'll stick with the theory that both coaches stunk it up and Bill lucked out. He'd have been second guessed to death for standing there as the click wound down while Brady sat on the bench dumbfounded had they lost.

I love the Pats, but if Bill Belichek did all of that on purpose, he must have made a deal with the devil.

 

[tzznandrew]

] I honestly do not think getting into FG range with say 45 secs left is that big of a stretch (Seattle drove for a TD with 35 secs at the end of half).

At this stage in their respective careers, I think Wilson throws the deep ball better.

The Seattle secondary is also better than New England's...but Seattle has no one like Gronk, so perhaps it's roughly even.

 

[Waquoit]

Belichick not calling TO was insanely stupid, there was 30 seconds and 1 TO left so you can still run the ball 3 times (0 chance it would have taken 3 times) from the 1 in that situation.

Disagree, it was like the Battle of Cowpens. The message he gave his troops was that there was no retreat. They would have to fight for the victory.

 

[jleves]

Wow these threads are funny. For the record I will say I wanted Seattle to lose more than I wanted the Patriots to win (if that makes any sense). But there is very little room for arguments against a few things:
1) and most important, it was a stupid call. If you decide that you want to preserve a little clock to make sure you have three shots at the end zone - even though I think you can easily run it 3 times with the timeout - then line up under center and run play action to Lynch (obviously he's going to be the focus of the D) and run a bootleg where either Wilson can get the edge and walk in, or throw it to a back corner where only his player can get it or it's OOB. That results in a TD or stopped clock 99% of the time. Then run it - call a TO if necessary - then run it.
2) The play at the end of the first half being compared to the play at the end of the game is ridiculous. At worst if you don't get anything in the first half, you have only left 3 points on the field, not unlike NE leaving three with Brady's first INT. You have an entire half to account for those points. You can adjust the game plan for that. Most of the time you will still end up with three as there will be a second or two on the clock. Best case scenario is you get 7 and they did. But there as little downside to the call. There was huge downside to the pass play at the end of the game. You have no game time to make up for the decision. If it fails in the way it did, you're done and they were. One was bold and sensible not because it worked, but because of the ramifications if it didn't (the only really huge down side is a pick six which is unlikely, even though my Cardinals did exactly that in the Superbowl against Pitt and it cost them the game). The other is just not well thought out and simply the wrong call. There is no justification. There were so many better options.
3) NE not calling a time out is probably very smart. There wasn't a lot of chance of getting down the field against that defense for a FG. Most of NEs drives took a long time and were done 4 and 5 yards at a time and they didn't have that luxury anymore. The pass rush wasn't allowing deep routes and that would not have changed. It also made Seattle have to make quicker decisions as the clock wasn't stopped for them to fully evaluate the pros and cons and they fell into that trap and made a bad decision. It's not unlike pressing a team in basketball. You're going to get beat sometimes, but sometimes you are going to force bad decisions leading to your benefit. A timeout there by NE costs them the game 90% of the time.

I'm not a NE fan but I'm certainly not anti NE - they are one of my favorite AFC teams, but they were handed a gift. There's no way they should have come out of that game with the victory. If you are a Patriots fan and don't believe it was a gift, tell me how you were feeling when it was 2nd and goal from the 1 with 30 seconds left. You could see Brady on the sideline was resigned to defeat. You were too. It was a gift. An incredibly stupid call put the Patriots into legendary status - or further into legendary status.

Before anyone calls me a hater, I wanted NE to win, so there's no hate here. Personally I would have liked to see Brady and NE win it to make a stronger argument for best of all time instead of Seattle losing it and keeping the debate open.

 

[Jerry1714]

Disagree, it was like the Battle of Cowpens. The message he gave his troops was that there was no retreat. They would have to fight for the victory.

I do not care what the message was, it was a bad decision.

 

[upstater]

If you are a Patriots fan and don't believe it was a gift, tell me how you were feeling when it was 2nd and goal from the 1 with 30 seconds left. You could see Brady on the sideline was resigned to defeat. You were too. It was a gift. An incredibly stupid call put the Patriots into legendary status - or further into legendary status.

Before anyone calls me a hater, I wanted NE to win, so there's no hate here. Personally I would have liked to see Brady and NE win it to make a stronger argument for best of all time instead of Seattle losing it and keeping the debate open.

Don't you mean at 30 seconds? At 1:30, every Patriots fan is thinking Brady will get the ball back.

At 30, it looks like a Seahawks victory.

Yeah the last play was a gift, but I don't think any Patriots fan thinks that's significant. For several reasons:

1. I firmly believe the Patriots were the better team. All night, you had inexplicable 50 yard passes to a guy who had never caught one before. Mind blowing. Whereas the Patriots drove the ball all game except for the 3rd qtr when they suddenly decided to run Blount into a brick wall.

2. The Kearse catch was as improbable as the crazy INT.

3. Malcolm Butler made that play happen, and even though only the Seahawks coaches had that crazy gotcha play planned, there was one other person in the stadium (likely the only other not wearing a Seattle uniform) who thought that that's where they were going, and he jumped the route, knocked the WR on his butt, and somehow held onto the ball. Gotta give him huge credit. He made a play he had no business making, even if it was the result of a very bad call.

4. I don't think anyone goes around saying the Giants weren't the better team during the Tyree year. Patriots have lost improbably, last night they won.

I honestly am not sheepish about the way they won it, not at all.

I should also mention that it's likely that both Belichick and Carroll were well aware that Lynch was 1 for 6 on 1 yard to goal runs this year. You run it there, you get stopped, then you have to call a timeout. That leaves 2 plays and no timeouts. The Patriots bring an extra DB into the game because they know you're passing it on 3rd down. AND, you're definitely not running an option on 3rd down with Wilson. If he gets blown up there, it's game over.

So, imagine, run on second down, 1 yard loss. Timeout. Pass on third down. Incomplete. Last play: run or pass or option.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

Personally I would have liked to see Brady and NE win it to make a stronger argument for best of all time instead of Seattle losing it and keeping the debate open.

It blows my mind that this is an actual thought being expressed by people.

 

[CL82]

Wow these threads are funny. For the record I will say I wanted Seattle to lose more than I wanted the Patriots to win (if that makes any sense). But there is very little room for arguments against a few things:
1) and most important, it was a stupid call. If you decide that you want to preserve a little clock to make sure you have three shots at the end zone - even though I think you can easily run it 3 times with the timeout - then line up under center and run play action to Lynch (obviously he's going to be the focus of the D) and run a bootleg where either Wilson can get the edge and walk in, or throw it to a back corner where only his player can get it or it's OOB. That results in a TD or stopped clock 99% of the time. Then run it - call a TO if necessary - then run it.
2) The play at the end of the first half being compared to the play at the end of the game is ridiculous. At worst if you don't get anything in the first half, you have only left 3 points on the field, not unlike NE leaving three with Brady's first INT. You have an entire half to account for those points. You can adjust the game plan for that. Most of the time you will still end up with three as there will be a second or two on the clock. Best case scenario is you get 7 and they did. But there as little downside to the call. There was huge downside to the pass play at the end of the game. You have no game time to make up for the decision. If it fails in the way it did, you're done and they were. One was bold and sensible not because it worked, but because of the ramifications if it didn't (the only really huge down side is a pick six which is unlikely, even though my Cardinals did exactly that in the Superbowl against Pitt and it cost them the game). The other is just not well thought out and simply the wrong call. There is no justification. There were so many better options.
3) NE not calling a time out is probably very smart. There wasn't a lot of chance of getting down the field against that defense for a FG. Most of NEs drives took a long time and were done 4 and 5 yards at a time and they didn't have that luxury anymore. The pass rush wasn't allowing deep routes and that would not have changed. It also made Seattle have to make quicker decisions as the clock wasn't stopped for them to fully evaluate the pros and cons and they fell into that trap and made a bad decision. It's not unlike pressing a team in basketball. You're going to get beat sometimes, but sometimes you are going to force bad decisions leading to your benefit. A timeout there by NE costs them the game 90% of the time.

I'm not a NE fan but I'm certainly not anti NE - they are one of my favorite AFC teams, but they were handed a gift. There's no way they should have come out of that game with the victory. If you are a Patriots fan and don't believe it was a gift, tell me how you were feeling when it was 2nd and goal from the 1 with 30 seconds left. You could see Brady on the sideline was resigned to defeat. You were too. It was a gift. An incredibly stupid call put the Patriots into legendary status - or further into legendary status.

Before anyone calls me a hater, I wanted NE to win, so there's no hate here. Personally I would have liked to see Brady and NE win it to make a stronger argument for best of all time instead of Seattle losing it and keeping the debate open.

It wasn't a gift bcause it was earned. If the Pats don't have that great comeback the don't have a lead to lose. I'd Butler doesn't make a great defensive play, it doesn't happen.

This is pretty much the same level of lameness as the people who discount or 2011 or 2014 championships because "we got hot. " Yes we did. That's what winning teams do the get hot at the right time and when the game is on the line they make great defensive plays.

 

[donyell34]

THERE ARE NO GIFTS AT THIS LEVEL OF FOOTBALL. ALL OF YOU SAYING THIS NEVER PLAYED THE GAME. YOUR ANALYTICAL PROCESS OF SITTING HIGH UP IN YOUR OFFICE AND SAYING THIS AND THAT IS NONSENSE. GAME IS ON THE FIELD WITH NO GUARANTEES THE BEAST GETS IN. FUNNY THAT ALL YOUR CRITIQUE IS ANTI PATRIOTS AND THEY WERE JUST HANDED A VICTORY. SOUND LIKE CUSE FANS LAST YEAR SAYING WE WEREN'T WORTHY WITH TWISTED IDEAS TO PROVE THEIR POINT. PATRIOT FANS REJOICE AND SCREW THE HATERS.

 

[Waquoit]

Whereas the Patriots drove the ball all game except for the 3rd qtr when they suddenly decided to run Blount into a brick wall.

Blount doesn't show up for the big game. He wasn't hitting the hole, he was tap dancing.

 

[Sky ball]

THERE ARE NO GIFTS AT THIS LEVEL OF FOOTBALL. ALL OF YOU SAYING THIS NEVER PLAYED THE GAME. YOUR ANALYTICAL PROCESS OF SITTING HIGH UP IN YOUR OFFICE AND SAYING THIS AND THAT IS NONSENSE. GAME IS ON THE FIELD WITH NO GUARANTEES THE BEAST GETS IN. FUNNY THAT ALL YOUR CRITIQUE IS ANTI PATRIOTS AND THEY WERE JUST HANDED A VICTORY. SOUND LIKE CUSE FANS LAST YEAR SAYING WE WEREN'T WORTHY WITH TWISTED IDEAS TO PROVE THEIR POINT. PATRIOT FANS REJOICE AND SCREW THE HATERS.

I can't hear you?

 

[mauconnfan]

THERE ARE NO GIFTS AT THIS LEVEL OF FOOTBALL. ALL OF YOU SAYING THIS NEVER PLAYED THE GAME. YOUR ANALYTICAL PROCESS OF SITTING HIGH UP IN YOUR OFFICE AND SAYING THIS AND THAT IS NONSENSE. GAME IS ON THE FIELD WITH NO GUARANTEES THE BEAST GETS IN. FUNNY THAT ALL YOUR CRITIQUE IS ANTI PATRIOTS AND THEY WERE JUST HANDED A VICTORY. SOUND LIKE CUSE FANS LAST YEAR SAYING WE WEREN'T WORTHY WITH TWISTED IDEAS TO PROVE THEIR POINT. PATRIOT FANS REJOICE AND SCREW THE HATERS.

donyell, stop the screaming. I will say this, you as a Pats fan need to read your own message and try to understand, you guys are the reason people whine about "gifts". For years now as a Giants fan I have heard about "if it weren't for David Tyree's catch" a million plus times. If indeed Tyree's catch was a fluke and a gift to the Giants, you rec'd one also most recently. But if there are no gifts in football and you do actually earn them, then remind your Pats friends of that. Because now the thing is "if Tyree didn't catch it we'd have 5"!!

Sorry it will never go away that's how Pats/Sox fans roll. But nice try. - Merry Christmas!

 

[upstater]

donyell, stop the screaming. I will say this, you as a Pats fan need to read your own message and try to understand, you guys are the reason people whine about "gifts". For years now as a Giants fan I have heard about "if it weren't for David Tyree's catch" a million plus times. If indeed Tyree's catch was a fluke and a gift to the Giants, you rec'd one also most recently. But if there are no gifts in football and you do actually earn them, then remind your Pats friends of that. Because now the thing is "if Tyree didn't catch it we'd have 5"!!

Sorry it will never go away that's how Pats/Sox fans roll. But nice try. - Merry Christmas!

I've never heard a Patriots fan say that the Giants weren't the better team or that they didn't deserve to win. This would be a first, if someone believes that. I also think Patriots fans know that the Seahawks blew the game spectacularly. And that the Kearse catch was as fluky as the Tyree catch. Earned, deserved, on the final series has little to do with it at that point. Nicks caught a TD on an all out blitz, while I think Belichick goaded Carroll into throwing it. The Seahawks HAD TO throw it one out of 4 downs on that series. And they had to do it either on 2nd down or 3rd down. In that sense, you have to also credit Malcolm Butler too.

 

[mauconnfan]

Butler gets all of the credit in the world, no one can deny that, great defensive play. But Im not sure where you live but I still hear about Tyree's catch to this day - and a lot.

 

[boba]

It blows my mind that this is an actual thought being expressed by people.

You have a mind? Wow! Only saying that because you haven't demonstrated it so far. Try using it instead of your lips, you'll get further.

 

[Scoe]

THERE ARE NO GIFTS AT THIS LEVEL OF FOOTBALL. ALL OF YOU SAYING THIS NEVER PLAYED THE GAME. YOUR ANALYTICAL PROCESS OF SITTING HIGH UP IN YOUR OFFICE AND SAYING THIS AND THAT IS NONSENSE. GAME IS ON THE FIELD WITH NO GUARANTEES THE BEAST GETS IN. FUNNY THAT ALL YOUR CRITIQUE IS ANTI PATRIOTS AND THEY WERE JUST HANDED A VICTORY. SOUND LIKE CUSE FANS LAST YEAR SAYING WE WEREN'T WORTHY WITH TWISTED IDEAS TO PROVE THEIR POINT. PATRIOT FANS REJOICE AND SCREW THE HATERS.

Can you make that font size bigger I cant see.

 

[ZenConn]

I haven't seen many people chime in on Russell Wilson's role here. I'm not saying he's a not great quarterback. He is and he's one of the best in the NFL at this stage of his career. But being the general on the field, he doesn't get a free pass on this one.

He could have done a few things differently when lining up. Calling a timeout, change the route to a fade instead of trying to thread the needle in a tight spot.

On another note, some people are already penciling in the Seahawks for next year's Super Bowl. Not so fast.

Extensions to Russell Wilson and Marshawn Lynch. Their entire defensive secondary with the exception of 1 will have some sort of off season surgery.

 

[upstater]

I haven't seen many people chime in on Russell Wilson's role here. I'm not saying he's a not great quarterback. He is and he's one of the best in the NFL at this stage of his career. But being the general on the field, he doesn't get a free pass on this one.

He could have done a few things differently when lining up. Calling a timeout, change the route to a fade instead of trying to thread the needle in a tight spot.

On another note, some people are already penciling in the Seahawks for next year's Super Bowl. Not so fast.

Extensions to Russell Wilson and Marshawn Lynch. Their entire defensive secondary with the exception of 1 will have some sort of off season surgery.

The Seahawks had the matchup they wanted. They couldn't have drawn it up any better. If anything, Wilson should have been looking at Butler to see what he was doing presnap. Butler backed off. That might have been a tell.

 

[Rocktheworld]

I've never heard a Patriots fan say that the Giants weren't the better team or that they didn't deserve to win.

HAHAHAHAHAHA

yeah, okay.

 

[CL82]

HAHAHAHAHAHA

yeah, okay.

I'm a Pats fan living in the NYC metro area. Those loses sucked because I had to take a whole lot of gloating/celebrating locally. FWIW, I've never said the Giants wins weren't earned. They are particularly painful to me, but the Giants were the better team...twice.

 

[Gurleyman]

I've never heard a Patriots fan say that the Giants weren't the better team or that they didn't deserve to win. This would be a first, if someone believes that. I also think Patriots fans know that the Seahawks blew the game spectacularly. And that the Kearse catch was as fluky as the Tyree catch. Earned, deserved, on the final series has little to do with it at that point. Nicks caught a TD on an all out blitz, while I think Belichick goaded Carroll into throwing it. The Seahawks HAD TO throw it one out of 4 downs on that series. And they had to do it either on 2nd down or 3rd down. In that sense, you have to also credit Malcolm Butler too.

No they didn't - it doesn't take longer than 20 seconds to set back up on the goal line in a hurry up. Not like the receivers have to sprint back from way downfield. They are walking back three steps. You can do two quick plunges/QB sneaks, and if you are stopped, wait for the clock to get down to 2 seconds. Call a timeout, and one play for all the marbles with no squib kick needed. Or, plunge once, call the timeout, and then call the last two plays during the timeout. That would leave time for an audible, even. You may not have time to run new personnel out on the field, but if you believe in your ability to pick up a yard with the Super Bowl on the line, you don't need to. Get the big hosses out there and go get a trophy.