Shocking News Out of North Carolina Women's Basketball

[Crank]

Lot of rush to judgment on the NC coach. I don't know anything about her history or what not, but I know that one of the worst consequences of our always-on, immediate tech culture is that the primal tendency of observers to assume guilt based on headlines alone has been exacerbated and amplified.
Regarding whatever comments she said, I'd want to hear directly from the players - not from a source quoting players. Big difference between barking out a clothesline metaphor and alluding to lynching. BIG. But I suppose we have to leave room for somebody being offended by a "hang out to dry" reference, because, after all, it makes a reference to hanging something, and maybe that hurt somebody's feelings, independent of the known intent of the author.

Regarding players nowadays, I'm slowly turning away from all sports. Not a lot of patience left for appeasing every last triggered nerve in every last player - particularly the pros.

Where's it all going? Players being their own coaches?

In any event, it's probably a good thing that Miracle on Ice happened 40ish years before we decided it was unacceptable for a coach to yell at a kid to try to get that kid to produce his all in a voluntary sport that has a value that is usally predicated substantially on attempting to win.

Maybe, today, we could send out the mighty ducks or something.

 

[Crossover]

I’m not - I have no idea what she really said, and no way of knowing (and all the accounts I’ve seen so far - except Sylvia’s own - have been 2nd or 3rd hand). I was merely responding to a suggestion by @willtalk that it’s ironic that at UNC, of all places, college students may have misinterpreted a common English-language saying.

Perhaps I should have directed my question to Willtalk who explicitly states that s/he believes the lawyer's version of what was said. Your response takes that conclusion as a given.

 

[j66kicker]

Perhaps I should have directed my question to Willtalk who explicitly states that s/he believes the lawyer's version of what was said. Your response takes that conclusion as a given.

I suppose. My intent was, "IF that is what she said...," but I guess I wasn't explicit about that. Whatever. I have no guess or hunch about which side is right about what she actually said.

I DO have a hunch, though - based only on the almost always valid, "Where there's smoke there's fire" theory - that with 6 kids and their parents all complaining, there is probably something there to complain about.

 

[JoePgh]

Cuz male players don't have to --most can knock any coach on his tail. Nuf Sed, that ends conversations quickly.

If you look at what was eventually revealed about both the Bobby Knight (Indiana) and Mike Rice (Rutgers) cases, in fact the opposite seems to be true. Male players who are looking for the NBA contract and often need the scholarship more than women players do (because they come generally from more impoverished backgrounds and have fewer employment opportunities outside basketball) have little to no leverage against a college coach who abuses them, and they know it.

We do see male players transferring on a frequent basis. You can speculate that in many cases they transferred to escape an abusive situation, but they never say that. In their perception, the abusive coach has too much power over their future (even after they leave the school) that they will not dare to say anything negative about him publicly.

 

[Madmannsucks]

Apparently the women's BB coach made some racially insensitive comments. Additionally pressured players to play through injuries.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

I attended college in NC . My first weekend, in response the wide reporting of the" most diverse class ever", the klan held a rally downtown. The rally was supposed to conclude with them in cars driving through campus. They were "persuaded" to forgo that part of the plan. I am 45 years old. Old, but not ancient.

I don't know what she meant, but I know a person of her age in NC knows the origin of the term "stringing people up." Hell, why is she referencing ropes at all? Say what you want about those young ladies, but when a White Woman with Sylvia's clout starts throwing around terms like that, you would be wise to take notice.

 

[oldude]

If you look at what was eventually revealed about both the Bobby Knight (Indiana) and Mike Rice (Rutgers) cases, in fact the opposite seems to be true. Male players who are looking for the NBA contract and often need the scholarship more than women players do (because they come generally from more impoverished backgrounds and have fewer employment opportunities outside basketball) have little to no leverage against a college coach who abuses them, and they know it. Go figure.

We do see male players transferring on a frequent basis. You can speculate that in many cases they transferred to escape an abusive situation, but they never say that. In their perception, the abusive coach has too much power over their future (even after they leave the school) that they will not dare to say anything negative about him publicly.

Knight only got canned at IN because a video surfaced of him choking one of his players at practice. Even with that, many Hoosier fans continued to support him, and were furious at the university when they fired him. Knight ended up with another HC gig at TX Tech and then a broadcasting gig after he retired from coaching.

 

[CocoHusky]

Lot of rush to judgment on the NC coach. I don't know anything about her history or what not, but I know that one of the worst consequences of our always-on, immediate tech culture is that the primal tendency of observers to assume guilt based on headlines alone has been exacerbated and amplified.
Regarding whatever comments she said, I'd want to hear directly from the players - not from a source quoting players. Big difference between barking out a clothesline metaphor and alluding to lynching. BIG. But I suppose we have to leave room for somebody being offended by a "hang out to dry" reference, because, after all, it makes a reference to hanging something, and maybe that hurt somebody's feelings, independent of the known intent of the author.
Regarding players nowadays, I'm slowly turning away from all sports. Not a lot of patience left for appeasing every last triggered nerve in every last player - particularly the pros.
Where's it all going? Players being their own coaches?
In any event, it's probably a good thing that Miracle on Ice happened 40ish years before we decided it was unacceptable for a coach to yell at a kid to try to get that kid to produce his all in a voluntary sport that has a value that is usually predicated substantially on attempting to win.
Maybe, today, we could send out the mighty ducks or something.

I don't see the need to turn away from sports because I view this as a societal (generational?) problem. If you didn't see it in sports you are bound to see it in some other facet of society.
The fundamental cause is steep erosion of respect for authority. This includes police, teachers, coaches, elders, judges, and even parents. The root cause of the problem is for far too long now we have been teaching our children that there is nothing greater or more important than themselves. In reality there are several things that are greater or more important. For example, since law and order is a collective right this might occasionally or temporarily trump an individual rights. In team sports the success of the team will always trump the individual contribution.
I fully acknowledge that some very high profile police, coaches, teachers & parents have provided good reason to question or diminish the respect for their authority. Without some level of authority and respect for it, this grand experiment call society might as well conclude.

 

[Gamecockfan77]

I believe was she actually said was that if their play does not improve " Their gonna string us up and hang us up to dry". That, to my recollection is an old saying that has very little to do with Lynchings. More like laundry Young peoples knowledge of common sayings is severely lacking. It was taken totally out of context. I don't even care for Hatchel but calling that a racist statement is absurd. These are college students? Sort of poetic justice that she gets brought down by a misconstrued statement based on ignorance of common English sayings.

I agree.

She's also including herself in the group that is going to get hung up to dry which makes it somewhat strange to claim it was some kind of threat or deliberately racist remark.

Throwing this into the mix actually diminishes in my mind the likelihood that the rest isn't BS too.

 

[Gamecockfan77]

Knight only got canned at IN because a video surfaced of him choking one of his players at practice. Even with that, many Hoosier fans continued to support him, and were furious at the university when they fired him. Knight ended up with another HC gig at TX Tech and then a broadcasting gig after he retired from coaching.

He survived the video.

He was fired because AFTER the video came out he assaulted (and perhaps put hands on) a student in the student union because he said "Hey, Knight" instead of "Coach Knight" or "Mr. Knight".

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

Perhaps I should have directed my question to Willtalk who explicitly states that s/he believes the lawyer's version of what was said. Your response takes that conclusion as a given.

I don't know what she said exactly, but my argument would be that it was probably something racially insensitive - which is, I believe wrongly - equated with being racist. I have seen nothing in her past record, teams, former player's behavior, etc. to suggest she is "racist" in the traditional meaning. A lot of old, common expressions are or sound racist, both of which would suggest being racially insensitive but there is a world of difference in the 2 cases.

As to the medical issues - I suspect it will turn out that she did not do anything that was not "ok" with the team doctors - which leads to the question, did she pressure them to OK something or were they doing their job. If the Doctor says one thing and the player doesn't agree (for example, a concussion) does the coach have to take the player's word over the doctors?

And I have read numerous cases of coaches encouraging players to play through pain provided that the Doctor said they could not hurt themselves further. If the player says no, I don't see that the coach can apply any "blame", but I don't think this is uncommon at all.

 

[Zinethar]

I am glad I am now retired. It is almost impossible to do anything today without offending someone. Coaching women is different than coaching me. I always treated both the same as I always said I coached athletes not genders. Women want to be coached just like men do. They tend in general to show emotion more than men but that is likely more cultural. Have I yelled at a team member. Yes. I tried to never do it during a contest as it would likely take their head out of the game. I would publicly discipline when a public response was required. As I got more experienced I made a rule that I would not address the team after a contest until I had MY act together. BUT I will never judge another coach in public as I don't walk in their shoes.

 

[dogfan96]

No offense here Knightsbridge but you are part of the problem by making assumptions and about outdated methods. Given my unfortunate knowledge of two Athletic Department investigations into abuse, schools do not blindly take a word from 1 athlete. Investigations occur after multiple concerns are raised and corroborated. At that point a prelim investigation occurs and if warranted, an external firm is brought in due to too many personal relationships of the AD Personnel being too close to coaching staffs (too aligned for job protection). Then the various academic, medical and transportation staff are included.
For the NC (and GT) programs having to bring in outside firms shows this is NOT SCAPEGOATING anything but a concern over other methods of management style outdated and in some violation of rights.
Workplace and Athletic environments ARE EXACTLY THE SAME. Those who want to parse that they aren’t are simply in denial and not up with current laws.
The Men’s programs of Football and Basketball have these issues as well however there have been too many swept under the rug or members “shamed” for not “manning up as a big boy” to take criticism, which is absurd but it happens. Tom Izzo’s Berating on national TV was wrong and his additional comments to justify it were also wrong and yet the school ignores it due to the money involved. There will be more men’s programs that will slowly come out as hostile work environments and the usual rhetoric will follow to shame those reporting it, and that is the real issue, people not willing to listen.

Very well said.. how dare people actually want to be treated with respect?

 

[willtalk]

Just out of curiosity, why are you crediting Hatchell's lawyer's account and discrediting the account by the NYT's source?

Perhaps I should have directed my question to Willtalk who explicitly states that s/he believes the lawyer's version of what was said. Your response takes that conclusion as a given.

Anyone who would assume that one version of an exchange in which they were not present is without a doubt correct would be wrong. Perhaps I should have been more detailed in my post. What I meant to say was that that was what Hatchel said she said instead of " what she actually said".

That part out of the way, Hatchel's version is very very highly more probable than the other version. It is very believable that a young college student under stress might translate the "hang out to dry" statement into what they believe she might have said. The younger generation is especially ignorant in respect to what used to be commonly used idioms or phrases. I have experienced many incidents where (even devoid of idioms ) what a person thought they heard was vastly different than what was actually said. Hey, there are even examples on forums like this where people misinterpreted or misread things that are right in front of them in black and white.

I have never been a fan of Hatchel. I think she is an example of a dinosaur who has kept her position via the " Good ole boy/girl system". Yet it is very improbable that someone who has been around as long as she has would suddenly out of the blue and say that if a player didn't improve she would be taken out and lynched. If you believe that then either your BS meter is broken or it suits some social agenda.

The player who made that accusation probably truly believes that is what was said. Still, we need to be as sensitive to people who are falsely accused of things as we are to the individuals that believe they might have been wronged. If we truly believe that being a racist/bigot is so wrong, then being falsely accused of being one is far more offensive than someone who might have been offended by a racist statement. That is something that has been ignored by those that cherry pick who is entitled to be offended and who is not.

 

[Madmannsucks]

Anyone who would assume that one version of an exchange in which they were not present is without a doubt correct would be wrong. Perhaps I should have been more detailed in my post. What I meant to say was that that was what Hatchel said she said instead of " what she actually said".

That part out of the way, Hatchel's version is very very highly more probable than the other version. It is very believable that a young college student under stress might translate the "hang out to dry" statement into what they believe she might have said. The younger generation is especially ignorant in respect to what used to be commonly used idioms or phrases. I have experienced many incidents where (even devoid of idioms ) what a person thought they heard was vastly different than what was actually said. Hey, there are even examples on forums like this where people misinterpreted or misread things that are right in front of them in black and white.

I have never been a fan of Hatchel. I think she is an example of a dinosaur who has kept her position via the " Good ole boy/girl system". Yet it is very improbable that someone who has been around as long as she has would suddenly out of the blue and say that if a player didn't improve she would be taken out and lynched. If you believe that then either your BS meter is broken or it suits some social agenda.

The player who made that accusation probably truly believes that is what was said. Still, we need to be as sensitive to people who are falsely accused of things as we are to the individuals that believe they might have been wronged. If we truly believe that being a racist/bigot is so wrong, then being falsely accused of being one is far more offensive than someone who might have been offended by a racist statement. That is something that has been ignored by those that cherry pick who is entitled to be offended and who is not.

Another very reasonable possibility is she has been saying such things for years, and no one ever spoke up because they didn't care, or were afraid, or it did not even occur to them. A lot of people just do not think that way.

 

[willtalk]

Another very reasonable possibility is she has been saying such things for years, and no one ever spoke up because they didn't care, or were afraid, or it did not even occur to them. A lot of people just do not think that way.

Possible- certainly. A reasonable possibility- not hardly. Do you really think that someone in Hatchel's position would have or even could have been able to get away with and kept that secret for as long as she has been at NC? Especially in the political climate that has existed for some time now? Of course, it is also just as possible that she has been eating the hearts of the children she has sacrificed during Satanic rituals in order to keep all her nefarious actions well hidden. She may be bigoted but it isn't in respect to race.

 

[DefenseBB]

For me, the real frustration is peers and reporters blindly supporting “said individual” by assuming facts or character and not letting the investigation play out. On one side we have a whole team leadership being suspended so an unimpeded investigation can occur which is comparable to getting a probable cause search warrant. It doesn’t mean anyone is guilty or innocent but a clarity of facts to support or refute assertions.
All of are viewing the various “spins” by reporters, lawyers and others as their basis, which is limiting. I am not a fan of Coach Hatchell, however I need to see the full set of facts, texts, emails and supported/corroborated evidence first. I do think the initial issues of pressuring players to play hurt is a bit damning. The racist aspect is a tad suspect to me but again, I need to see it fully investigated before I can damn or exonerate her and the staff.
I only hope more reporters and coaches as well as my peer posters here do the same. Either way, this is sad for our sport.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

Hatchell and her university bobbed and weaved out of a multi-multi year academic cheating scandal involving her players. Since these things are supposedly no longer being done, maybe the free "education" is not enough for some of her players to remain silent. Course, it just may be a witch hunt in the #MeToo era.

 

[Madmannsucks]

Possible- certainly. A reasonable possibility- not hardly. Do you really think that someone in Hatchel's position would have or even could have been able to get away with and kept that secret for as long as she has been at NC? Especially in the political climate that has existed for some time now? Of course, it is also just as possible that she has been eating the hearts of the children she has sacrificed during Satanic rituals in order to keep all her nefarious actions well hidden. She may be bigoted but it isn't in respect to race.

I am not even remotely suggesting she is a bigot.
But a 67 year old growing up in a small town in North Carolina spending her years in the South saying insensitive things to black players? No, that is not a reach at all.
The 2nd part of your post is really out of left field, and makes no sense.
Yeah, Just as possible. Sigh?
I presented a possibility that, to a reasonable person would not be a reach. I wasn't there, but I have been around the block more than once.

 

[HuskyMJ]

I believe was she actually said was that if their play does not improve " Their gonna string us up and hang us up to dry". That, to my recollection is an old saying that has very little to do with Lynchings. More like laundry Young peoples knowledge of common sayings is severely lacking. It was taken totally out of context. I don't even care for Hatchel but calling that a racist statement is absurd. These are college students? Sort of poetic justice that she gets brought down by a misconstrued statement based on ignorance of common English sayings.

You are taking all of the accusations and downplaying them to make it seem like Hatchell didn't do anything wrong. Why do you think 4 UNC players are transferring and 2 more would if Hatchell stays? I mean give the kids some credence they were with Hatchell all season, if she said some stuff she shouldn't have said, I believe they heard it and aren't dreaming.

 

[oldude]

While what Hatchell said and did at UNC is in dispute, one thing is not in dispute. This is the 2nd time in 5 years that UNC will have half their roster transfer. Either Hatchell is recruiting the wrong kids, or she just isn’t doing a very good job establishing a relationship with them.

 

[CL82]

I defy anyone to do that in an office or in a class room and see what happens to your job.

Perhaps the least relevant argument I've seen on the BY in quite a while and that is saying a lot.

 

[CL82]

Cuz male players don't have to --most can knock any coach on his tail. Nuf Sed, that ends conversations quickly.

So anyone with physical parity to an figure of authority can't be verbally abused?

Respectfully disagree.

 

[NewCorn]

I believe was she actually said was that if their play does not improve " Their gonna string us up and hang us up to dry". That, to my recollection is an old saying that has very little to do with Lynchings. More like laundry Young peoples knowledge of common sayings is severely lacking. It was taken totally out of context. I don't even care for Hatchel but calling that a racist statement is absurd. These are college students? Sort of poetic justice that she gets brought down by a misconstrued statement based on ignorance of common English sayings.

Every black person, young or old knows the difference between "hang us out to dry" and "take y’all outside with some nooses"

 

[NewCorn]

Good Lord! Just hoping we can evolve as a society where we are not so crippled by certain words and pay more attention to the intent of the words.

The people who can best judge the intent of Hatchel"s words are those who were on the scene at the time, not Hatchel's lawyers.

 

[sivad40]

While what Hatchell said and did at UNC is in dispute, one thing is not in dispute. This is the 2nd time in 5 years that UNC will have half their roster transfer. Either Hatchell is recruiting the wrong kids, or she just isn’t doing a very good job establishing a relationship with them.

I would say it's more of the latter. Assistants who are no longer on the staff recruited most of those players. Tricia Stafford-Odom recruited the 2013 class (it was rumored that 3 out of the 4 of them cried when she left UNC), Ivory Latta recruited Destinee Walker, and Tracey Johnson-Williams recruited Stephanie Watts and others.

 

[hjoerring]

Good Lord! Just hoping we can evolve as a society where we are not so crippled by certain words and pay more attention to the intent of the words.

Yes; like learning to separate the gold from the dross? College students are not as stupid as some would think. Authors of statements that are 'racist', 'sexist', etc., do not have to be racist themselves. We are all getting ahead of things based on incomplete statements. There are two things that I find interesting: 1) one, the entire staff is being evaluated. I am assuming that it isn't a homogeneous group. 2) univ are wont to defend administrators/coaches that they want and ease out others that have become expendable.
And, I may add here that all parents know that soon or later you fall out generationally with your kids, especially when it comes to language. As parents, we have other things to fall back upon and a positive relation can remain. I would not be so arrogant to think that what worked for me yesterday should work today; and, therefore no change is necessary, This is a problem I see with old colleagues who think that the same class notes from 20-years ago are still good-- including the jokes.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

This just occurred to me as I caught up with this thread. Whatever the reports of anecdotal evidence of whatever are about Sylvia Hatchell and her staff, and not meaning to address whatever her issues are or are not that bring the suspension and investigation...in other words, without regard to the merits of whatever the case or non-case against Hatchell is ... so strictly hypothetically I ask: If a non-black person did not like black people, why would such a person devote a lifetime to a profession that had them interacting constantly with people many if not most of whom are black?

 

[CocoHusky]

This just occurred to me as I caught up with this thread. Whatever the reports of anecdotal evidence of whatever are about Sylvia Hatchell and her staff, and not meaning to address whatever her issues are or are not that bring the suspension and investigation...in other words, without regard to the merits of whatever the case or non-case against Hatchell is ... so strictly hypothetically I ask: If a non-black person did not like black people, why would such a person devote a lifetime to a profession that had them interacting constantly with people many if not most of whom are black?

Regardless of how many black people Sylvia has coached she is no different than the rest of us in this regard: We are all capable of misusing a phrase or using words that someone might take offense to. When and if this happens we should all resort to the Kobe Bryant model. After using a gay slur directed at a referee during a 2011 game Kobe said this:
"My actions were out of frustration during the heat of the game, period," he said. "The words expressed do NOT reflect my feelings towards the gay and lesbian communities and were NOT meant to offend anyone.".
So if Sylvia did use that exact phrase and did not mean to offend anyone, an apology should be the end of it. Somehow I suspect it will not be because we already have lawyers quibbling about what exactly was said through the media. This is about something else!

 

[oldude]

Regardless of how many black people Sylvia has coached she is no different than the rest of us in this regard: We are all capable of misusing a phrase or using words that someone might take offense to. When and if this happens we should all resort to the Kobe Bryant model. After using a gay slur directed at a referee during a 2011 game Kobe said this:
"My actions were out of frustration during the heat of the game, period," he said. "The words expressed do NOT reflect my feelings towards the gay and lesbian communities and were NOT meant to offend anyone.".
So if Sylvia did use that exact phrase and did not mean to offend anyone, an apology should be the end of it. Somehow I suspect it will not be because we already have lawyers quibbling about what exactly was said through the media. This is about something else!

I point out again that whatever words were used or not used by Sylvia Hatchell, the bigger issue is her continuing problem establishing a strong relationship with her players. 5 years ago, she lost half her team via transfer. It appears that is about to happen again. It speaks to a fundamental problem Hatchell has relating to young people.