Shocking News Out of North Carolina Women's Basketball | Page 2 | The Boneyard

Shocking News Out of North Carolina Women's Basketball

Zorro said:
If I remember correctly, about half of Sylvia's players were involved with the "ghost classes" and/or the phantom African/African American Studies program. She could not have known about it, any more than could Roy. There damned well should be consequences!
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But that was a long time ago. Why the suspensions now?
 
KnightBridgeAZ said:
Yep. Anyone can complain - and you know something - in this day and age the university will generally back the player if the coach was, indeed, deemed too harsh. But the line marking "too harsh" is too fluid for common sense. Truth - Geno, Vivian, the late Pat Summitt and many of the better coaches could all be accused. It just takes one "bad apple" who doesn't "get it". Those who "get it", whether they like it or not, are unlikely to complain. As you say, the age of entitlement.
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No offense here Knightsbridge but you are part of the problem by making assumptions and about outdated methods. Given my unfortunate knowledge of two Athletic Department investigations into abuse, schools do not blindly take a word from 1 athlete. Investigations occur after multiple concerns are raised and corroborated. At that point a prelim investigation occurs and if warranted, an external firm is brought in due to too many personal relationships of the AD Personnel being too close to coaching staffs (too aligned for job protection). Then the various academic, medical and transportation staff are included.
For the NC (and GT) programs having to bring in outside firms shows this is NOT SCAPEGOATING anything but a concern over other methods of management style outdated and in some violation of rights.
Workplace and Athletic environments ARE EXACTLY THE SAME. Those who want to parse that they aren’t are simply in denial and not up with current laws.
The Men’s programs of Football and Basketball have these issues as well however there have been too many swept under the rug or members “shamed” for not “manning up as a big boy” to take criticism, which is absurd but it happens. Tom Izzo’s Berating on national TV was wrong and his additional comments to justify it were also wrong and yet the school ignores it due to the money involved. There will be more men’s programs that will slowly come out as hostile work environments and the usual rhetoric will follow to shame those reporting it, and that is the real issue, people not willing to listen.
 
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I played and coached college football during the dark ages. While I played for and worked with some tough, demanding coaches, even then there was a clear line that most coaches understood they could not cross. It has never been acceptable to use racial epithets or personally abusive behavior when dealing with players, although I know that sometimes such behavior occurred, usually behind closed doors, when kids were too scared to say anything. Even a championship coach like Bobby Knight eventually learned that certain behaviors towards players were unacceptable.
 
DefenseBB said:
No offense here Knightsbridge but you are part of the problem by making assumptions and about outdated methods. Given my unfortunate knowledge of two Athletic Department investigations into abuse, schools do not blindly take a word from 1 athlete. Investigations occur after multiple concerns are raised and corroborated. At that point a prelim investigation occurs and if warranted, an external firm is brought in due to too many personal relationships of the AD Personnel being too close to coaching staffs (too aligned for job protection). Then the various academic, medical and transportation staff are included.
For the NC (and GT) programs having to bring in outside firms shows this is NOT SCAPEGOATING anything but a concern over other methods of management style outdated and in some violation of rights.
Workplace and Athletic environments ARE EXACTLY THE SAME. Those who want to parse that they aren’t are simply in denial and not up with current laws.
The Men’s programs of Football and Basketball have these issues as well however there have been too many swept under the rug or members “shamed” for not “manning up as a big boy” to take criticism, which is absurd but it happens. Tom Izzo’s Berating on national TV was wrong and his additional comments to justify it were also wrong and yet the school ignores it due to the money involved. There will be more men’s programs that will slowly come out as hostile work environments and the usual rhetoric will follow to shame those reporting it, and that is the real issue, people not willing to listen.
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Please read the article about Geno's and the other Final Four coaches. Geno is saying what I was trying to say, only much better. If you don't agree, that's fine.

I have seen quite a number of examples of coaches crossing - and crossing very clearly - a line. Actually, Rich Rod of the Arizona football program, while it wasn't for his coaching, and there was no evidence for the sexual harassment claims of his secretary, was ultimately fired because he created an unacceptable culture. And quite rightly so.

At the same time, some coaches are not going to change, but are ultimately if anything too harsh, not abusive. Abusive is belittling players for who they are, not saying "they can't guard a chair" as I seem to recall Geno saying. And it is calling someone an ethnic insult - not yelling 'No more foreigners" when Svet made a play he didn't like. It is telling someone they are a disgrace - and not calling them a "Human Foul" as I heard Geno call Schumacher? (the player from Canada).

Was there really anything wrong with Geno's remarks? But in today's day and age - could someone think that he insults his players? Um, I think so. And I'm sorry, but for all the long list of folks who have abused players, there are lots who have quietly been accused of it, even if all that makes the news is that a player transferred.

As to Izzo, which I considered "crossing the line" - Geno defends him. So, who's to say, I have never coached anyone.
 
KnightBridgeAZ said:
Please read the article about Geno's and the other Final Four coaches. Geno is saying what I was trying to say, only much better. If you don't agree, that's fine....

As to Izzo, which I considered "crossing the line" - Geno defends him. So, who's to say, I have never coached anyone.
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Geno's take is Izzo's players love him, would go through wall for him, aren't complaining:

~ Players still love you & come back for more - OK
~ Players feel abused - Not OK
 
j66kicker said:
Geno's take is Izzo's players love him, would go through wall for him, aren't complaining:

~ Players still love you & come back for more - OK
~ Players feel abused - Not OK
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Izzo is a complete jackwagon! Look at his comments about the whole Nassar abuse case. He doesn't get it, never will. Yes, he can coach basketball but I do not think he is a guy I would ever want to have a beer with. or try to have a respectful dialogue with. Coaches defending coaches is the norm but we all saw what Izzo did and then how he justified it-IT WAS WRONG!

I defy anyone to do that in an office or in a class room and see what happens to your job. That's the complete irony here-they're supposed to be educators! We seem to think "coaching" sports is ok to verbally harangue young people-it isn't. There are plenty of other ways to properly coach up players. So let's parse critiquing vs. out right criticism vs. demeaning comments.
Critiquing-Absolutely,
Criticizing-probably never,
Demeaning-lose your job.

Don't like my comments-go talk to HR and report me! :rolleyes:
 
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Don't like my comments-go talk to HR and report me! :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

Critiquing-Absolutely,
Criticizing-probably never,
Demeaning-lose your job.

The problem is the lines between those things have shifted --- and where those lines should land is totally subjective.

Criticizing, probably never ???? ----that in itself defines the problem --- the inability to take and assess criticism has become a lost life skill.

Forget about athletics --- just in the general classroom environment ---- Critiquing, if it makes the subject "uncomfortable" is automatically interpreted as demeaning today. And if it makes a parent uncomfortable its a capital crime.
 
Orangutan said:
Yikes.
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She has been coaching for how long and all of a sudden she is saying these things? Something does not add up, either she has lost her mind or things got lost in translation or a mutiny has occurred. Hopefully the investigation clears things up.
 
Crazyhorse said:
She has been coaching for how long and all of a sudden she is saying these things? Something does not add up, either she has lost her mind or things got lost in translation or a mutiny has occurred. Hopefully the investigation clears things up.
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Evidently this originated with the parents of at least 6 players. The most serious charges imo relate to Hatchell forcing players to compete while injured. The alleged injuries include a concussion, a torn knee tendon and a shoulder injury requiring surgery.
 
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As administrators make hiring decisions let's not forget basic decency.

Sylvia Hatchell, the University of North Carolina’s Hall of Fame women’s basketball coach and one of most revered figures in the sport, is under investigation over allegations that she made a series of racially offensive remarks — including one suggesting her players would get “hanged from trees with nooses” at an upcoming game if their performance didn’t improve — and that she tried to force players to compete through serious injuries, according to interviews with seven people with knowledge of the investigation, including six parents of current players.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/spor...2f46684196e_story.html?utm_term=.fb0b347dab2d
 
oldude said:
Evidently this originated with the parents of at least 6 players. The most serious charges imo relate to Hatchell forcing players to compete while injured. The alleged injuries include a concussion, a torn knee tendon and a shoulder injury requiring surgery.
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I don't think we can draw that conclusion. The Washington Post cites "interviews with with seven people with knowledge of the investigation, including six parents of current players" as its source for the article, but this doesn't necessarily mean those six parents initiated the complaints to UNC administration.
 
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Plebe said:
I don't think we can draw that conclusion. The Washington Post cites "interviews with with seven people with knowledge of the investigation, including six players of current players" as its source for the article, but this doesn't necessarily mean those six parents initiated the complaints to UNC administration.
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You are correct. I have to wonder why the WP is relying on secondary sources, rather than primary sources, but I guess it will all come out one way or another.
 
DefenseBB said:
Izzo is a complete jackwagon! Look at his comments about the whole Nassar abuse case. He doesn't get it, never will. Yes, he can coach basketball but I do not think he is a guy I would ever want to have a beer with. or try to have a respectful dialogue with. Coaches defending coaches is the norm but we all saw what Izzo did and then how he justified it-IT WAS WRONG!
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My thoughts exactly. I saw Izzo in several Nassar case interviews where he ducked, dodged, obscured, and tried to blame his questioners. He ended up pulling a Sgt. Schultz: “I know notting, notting!” He tries to project strength, but he was a weakling in the face of women’s testimonies about his team and his conduct.
 
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I believe was she actually said was that if their play does not improve " Their gonna string us up and hang us up to dry". That, to my recollection is an old saying that has very little to do with Lynchings. More like laundry Young peoples knowledge of common sayings is severely lacking. It was taken totally out of context. I don't even care for Hatchel but calling that a racist statement is absurd. These are college students? Sort of poetic justice that she gets brought down by a misconstrued statement based on ignorance of common English sayings.
 
What's reported in the Washington Post is horrific. And let's be clear that it's several parents and players. And they've got emails and statements from the team physician.

Just horrific. The claim from Hatchell that the injured player should play because WNBA scouts will be there and want to see if she can "play through pain" is awful. I hope the WNBA makes an official announcement that they care about their athletes' health and would never demand that any woman athlete play when seriously injured.
 
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And here's an article on the situation by the NY Times:
North Carolina Women’s Basketball Coach Faces Complaints of Racially Insensitive Comments

A few excerpts:

Regarding whether these incidents are all from this year or go back:
"The announcement stunned North Carolina and appeared abrupt, but in the discussion with university officials on March 28, players’ relatives said Hatchell’s conduct had caused discomfort during at least two basketball seasons, according to the person."

Regarding the rope comment:

“If you guys play this way against Louisville, they’re going to take y’all outside with some nooses,” Hatchell said, according to the person, who was told of the remark by people who were present."

But Hatchell's lawyer has a different wording:

"Smith said the coach had used different words when warning about the coming Louisville game. “She said words like: ‘They’re going to hang us out to dry. They’re going to take a rope and hang us out to dry,’” the lawyer said. "

The NY Times does not go into the playing through injuries charges.
 
willtalk said:
I believe was she actually said was that if their play does not improve " Their gonna string us up and hang us up to dry". That, to my recollection is an old saying that has very little to do with Lynchings. More like laundry... Sort of poetic justice that she gets brought down by a misconstrued statement on based of common English sayings.
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Being “hung out to dry” is probably not a saying you learn in college. Well clearly not in the UNC African Studies dept., anyway. I guess many college-age kids may not have seen a clothesline either. But it does seem to be a stretch to “lynching” and “noose.”
 
j66kicker said:
Being “hung out to dry” is probably not a saying you learn in college. Well clearly not in the UNC African Studies dept., anyway. I guess many college-age kids may not have seen a clothesline either. But it does seem to be a stretch to “lynching” and “noose.”
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Good Lord! Just hoping we can evolve as a society where we are not so crippled by certain words and pay more attention to the intent of the words.
 
j66kicker said:
Being “hung out to dry” is probably not a saying you learn in college. Well clearly not in the UNC African Studies dept., anyway. I guess many college-age kids may not have seen a clothesline either. But it does seem to be a stretch to “lynching” and “noose.”
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Just out of curiosity, why are you crediting Hatchell's lawyer's account and discrediting the account by the NYT's source?
 
Crossover said:
Just out of curiosity, why are you crediting Hatchell's lawyer's account and discrediting the account by the NYT's source?
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I’m not - I have no idea what she really said, and no way of knowing (and all the accounts I’ve seen so far - except Sylvia’s own - have been 2nd or 3rd hand). I was merely responding to a suggestion by @willtalk that it’s ironic that at UNC, of all places, college students may have misinterpreted a common English-language saying.
 
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